Bites: Heritage is not what you think - Story time?
Happy Tuesday fellow Crunchers!
I guess you would call today a bit of a response post to a fellow Cruncher's post on Microbrands with a little discourse on heritage thrown in the mix.
First, let's see what's been going on in WC this week and then see what kind of stories float your boat...
Three quick bites from this week's WC, for those in a rush.
"Stockholm meetup 2023 in pictures" - @YourIntruder Come see the action from last weekend's meetup.
"Thoughts on microbrands" - @g_money_christmas Read the post that inspired my thoughts today.
"Make a donation to charity, win a Wise Adamascus!" - @Edge168n WC's first ever online charity raffle!
New members
New members who I have seen posting this week...
@JACathcart , @michaelrs , @bfvgnr , @leecarter , @haloivintageseiko , @alonzotang , @AndresSebastian , @andobo
Hot posts
This week's topics that got the community talking.
"What is the most beautiful watch you have ever seen?" - @watchesarenice
"Is a sports watch really a thing?" - @whystopatone
"The day I've dreaded is finally here" - @DH_NYC
"What will be your next watch and why?" - @samjones1983
"Help and advice needed - Dress watch" - @MrLume
"Question of the day" - @GentaJ
"Unattainable dream watch or realistic grail watch" - @ckim4watches
"Most overrated complication" - @NexusGG
"What's your most recent watch purchase?" - @samjones1983
"Do you have watch rules?" - @vmiyanks04
"I hate watch snobs " - @GodTierHere
"Which watch brand would be the new Rolex?" - @UnholiestJedi
"My humble collection" - @bicenhower
"Could you design a better Rangemaster?" - @Aurelian
Meetups and events
20th – 22nd October - Windup Watch Fair 2023 – New York
21st October - Windup WatchCrunch meetup - New York
8th Nov - France meetup - Tours, France
11th Nov - NorCal Episode 4 Wine Watches Music Meetup - Livermore, CA
11th Nov - WatchPro Salon meetup - London, UK
2nd December - Ventura GGT/Meetup - Ventura, CA
8th December – London Christmas Meetup – London, UK
Upcoming...
'Most Haunted Vintage Watch Challenge - 10 days to go!' - @casiodean
Ongoing...
"The William Wood Travel Watch" - @benandwatch
"Casio Travel Watch Update" - @Okavango The latest update from the OG WC travel watch.
"About Vintage Travel Watch" - @benandwatch's new About Vintage touring watch!
Auctions:
"Make a donation to charity, win a Wise Adamascus!" - @Edge168n Charity raffle!
Give away:
"NYC WatchCrunch Meetup Raffle!" -@TimeToDesign
My top picks from this week's new watch releases.
Top row, left to right: Raymond Weil , Ulysse Nardin , Citizen , Hanhart
Bottom row: Movado , Christopher Ward , Breguet , Zenith
Updates from the YouTubers, podcasters, brand owners and watch makers in our community.
"Something's coming ..." - @Studio.Underd0g
"Clemence Munro wrist shots" - @Clemence_Watches
"Vario Versa Purple Silver" - @varioeveryday
"In stock - Production batch finally arrived" - @Unison_Watches
"Rolex Sub or Sea Dweller or neither?" - @The_Timist
"Is this the perfect Tudor?" - @Max
Longer posts from the knowledgeable and creative writers amongst the WC family.
"One and done Chapter 19 - Cartier" - @defsNOTgenta
"Thoughts on the crown" - @dumihed
(I think I must have missed some of the action this weekend while I was away. Sorry if your post got missed!)
"Heritage is not what you think: Story time?"
There was a post recently by @g_money_christmas where they were asking for people's takes on Microbrands. There were a few themes that came up from folks who just don't get the joy of micros, they simply do nothing for them, so I thought it would be fun (in the weird watch enthusiasts definition of the word) to chat about my take on some of these points.
My watch collecting journey has gone from the fairly mainstream.... Squale, Seiko, Citizen.... to vintage.... Universal Geneve, Hamilton, more Seiko... to higher end.... Cartier, Rolex, Omega.... and, for now, rests firmly with microbrands.... Baltic, Direnzo, Formex and a number of others I have on my wishlist.
I have come to realise that for me, and I am sure many others, my watch collecting is fuelled primarily by the stories we tell ourselves about our watches.
I have written elsewhere about the fact that context is king when it comes to collecting and is a good predictor of whether or not we will 'bond' with a watch. That context can come in different forms... a gift, the event behind the watch purchase, a watch worn at a special time... all of these things can have significant sway on if a watch is a 'keeper'. They add a layer of stories to the watches history which means memories and emotions are triggered when we wear it.
In a similar way heritage does the same. Brands wrap their watches in stories to evoke emotions.
It is for this reason that microbrands can suffer in some enthusiasts estimations. Lack of meaningful stories.
In the thread I mentioned above there was a distinct theme of people struggling to get any 'feels' for microbrands due to lack of heritage.
Heritage is essentially the stories that brands leverage from their past to create a narrative that evokes nostalgia, emotion and trust.
Trust is a biggy. If a brand has been around for so long then a) they must be doing something right and b) if I've got an issue I can feel confident they will be around to fix it. But the power of a good story is difficult to replicate.
Moon landings, ocean dives, winning wars. All powerful stuff when considering a watch purchase.
So how can microbrands compete with that?
For many, they simply can't.
They seem to be relegated in a lot of enthusiasts minds to the role of a cheap alternative if you can't get the real thing, a stepping stone while you await an upgrade or, at worst, 'savings thieves' who steal money from your grail budget.
I used to feel the same, but let me explain how my mind changed.
The question of heritage....
As I said, heritage is stories.
A 'Heritage Brand' is most often thought of as one that chooses to draw on stories from its past, founders, iconic clients etc. Think of the obvious Rolex, Cartier, Doxa.
But age is not actually a requirement to be a Heritage Brand.
If a brand chooses to draw on the history of a place, group or design, then it too can qualify as a heritage brand.
There is a good 3 minute video here which talks about heritage in the context of fashion labels.
Newer brands that I would say fulfill this type of 'borrowed' heritage criteria would be the resurrected micros... Nivada Grenchen , Smiths, Alsta.
Now, I can imagine some of your faces right now as I refer to some of these as 'heritage brands' and I realise you may not be convinced, but there is no denying there is history there... the question is whether the story they have told you through their marketing or reissued designs is strong enough for you to connect to it.
If stories through design alone isn't enough for you, then how about heritage through association? Linking the brand to a group, individual or event.
Examples of brands that I've discovered that do this are Bravur, whose designs focus heavily on cycle racing, both present and historic, with a number of ambassadors in the cycling game.
Zero West is another company that draws heavy influence from the past in the form of military history to create their designs.
If these examples feel more like heritage appropriation for your tastes, then how about stories from the present rather than the past?
The absolute defining factor for me when choosing a microbrand is understanding why it was created, what was the inspiration, where is the passion and love that has gone into creating this watch.
This is where you have to do your homework.
Is this micro just a cash grab without any true enthusiast watch-joy going into it?
Can you tell there is careful, meaningful thought that has gone into creating something that will be enjoyed by fellow watch wearers?
Is the story and owner behind it something you can connect with?
I know it is ridiculously difficult, but actually meeting and chatting with brand owners brings a whole new dimension to watch ownership that you will simply not experience with the likes of Rolex, Omega, Longines etc.
Being able to shake the hand of the person who decided to put pen to paper one day and share their watch vision with others is the kind of story I am enjoying much more at the moment when I compare it to my mass produced luxury pieces.
"What if my watch breaks?? Will the micro still be around??"
Maybe it's because I've been through my 'vintage' stage, where I was just grateful if my watch still worked each time I got it out of the box, but I don't find the thought of a microbrand watch with a standard workhorse movement scary. In fact, I would find the thought of fixing a Miyota less intimidating than putting my Explorer in for a service!
So what about you?
Are you convinced that heritage can come from somewhere other than longevity?
Do microbrand stories strike a cord with you, or do you struggle to see them as anything other than fabrication for marketing?
Will you give microbrands a second look, or will they always remain somewhat soulless in your eyes?
Take care all,
Kaysia.
Part-time 'writter' @ The Escapement Room, the NSFW watch enthusiasts blog. www.theescapementroom.com/
More from DeeperBlue
I know you hear this every week, but I'm not sure I qualify as knowledgeable or creative. But I appreciate the mention!
While I love the thought of heritage when it comes to watches, there are just some microbrands that do some incredible things out there. Look at the colours of those Bravur chronographs.
There was even a dressier piece that I tried on from Bravur that looked stellar. As long as youre doing something original I enjoy microbrands a lot.
I have for example had that Tusenö Windseeker on my mind for a very long time even though Im saving up for a piece with heritage.
And my first watch happen to be from a microbrand, that I met the creator of just this weekend!
You beat me to it. I had been thinking of trying to write a post on heritage. I was thinking about it because I've mentioned in a couple of comments recently how brands lean on heritage for marketing, but that it feels like sometimes heritage can be exaggerated, manipulated, or straight out invented. It's something so many of us use in deciding on a purchase, but I was wondering how overrated it might be.
Great read!
Great post. I would add Zodiac to the heritage bucket.
Thanks for the mention! 😉
Thanks for mention me. I would like share my collection: Seagull 1963 -- The First and Best Aviation Watch in China.
And share the story and history behind the Seagull 1963 chronograph watch:
In the 1950s-60s, China aimed to develop its own domestic watch industry rather than relying on imports.
In 1961, China's Ministry of Light Industry tasked the Tianjin Watch Factory (later renamed Seagull) with developing the nation's first chronograph watches for aviators in the People's Liberation Army Air Force.
Named "Project 304", the secret national initiative took 2+ years before resulting in China's first homegrown aviation chronograph in 1963.
The 1963 chronograph featured the manual-wind ST3 movement designed in-house by Seagull. It had a column-wheel chronograph mechanism.
The 1963 chronograph's vintage styling with panda dial became iconic among watch collectors, especially after being reissued in the early 2000s.
Today the 1963 chronograph is remembered as one of China's first successes in developing an original mechanical chronograph movement and watch.
It demonstrated the nation's capabilities and kickstarted Seagull's reputation for aviation watches.
The 1963 remains one of Seagull's most popular watches, with numerous limited edition reissues made for its anniversary.
So in summary, the Seagull 1963 chronograph has an important history as a pioneering Chinese-made mechanical aviation watch in the 1960s. Its design legacy and significance for Seagull live on today.
Kaysia, great write up and agree that people should take another look at microbrands...those of us lucky enough to interact with the owners of these brands get an in-person look at the passion they have for this hobby...most of them have left other industries to pursue this path (that is living the dream!) and I think it comes through in their enthusiasm for their product
Lovely write up on what can constitute Heritage.
I'm not so set on heritage being a main criteria when selecting a watch; just like value should not be a main point either. No, these things should be more like tiebreakers in the event that you just can't choose between 2 pieces based on the aesthetics and specs alone.
And thanks for the mention!
Heritage is one part history many parts marketing. IE, James Bond only wears an Omega because they paid for product placement. There is no charm in that.
Similar, one only has to look at my gallery to see I also started with the big brands, which I still like, but I find way more excitement and creativity in the micro space. Like you Kaysia, I’ve been fortunate enough to talk to and meet many of the folks behind it and there is a passion there that isn’t always behind the large brands.
I remain open to all brands, but honestly, most of what’s on my radar is upcoming smaller brands and independent watchmakers and I don’t see that changing for me.
Excellent post as always.
Whoa! I'm glad I'm inspirational 😄
I'm coming to think just like you wrote. Having have interacted and even influenced in some microbrands, I feel somehow more connected to these watches than to other more prestigious ones. For me they are really fun with, some of them, a more tangible and real story than other brands that yes, they had story, but that story is a matter of the past.
For me heritage equals historical importance & accomplishments. I'm not into microbrands myself, just not my thing.
Im as shallow as a watermark and like a bit of brand prestige....😂
she's been busy too, swanning around Europe, probably wrote this on the train home 😜 @DeeperBlue
Microbrands –
They have to start somewhere, most I’ve seen do have a back story, they are one’s I like, the more obscure the better, #atowak are a brand taking inspiration from #urwerk not a lot of us can afford such expensive timepieces £30,000 + so for a brand to come along and make “similar” timepieces is great news £1500 #sevenfriday are another and I have one, it’s a great, well built, heavy watch and plenty of people talk about it when I wear it. I like #baltic #farer #zelos #christopherward #formex these aren’t really trying to copy anything else in my opinion, the ones that are more or less copying I try to stay away from. Great post @DeeperBlue 🙏
“Microbrand watches are typically produced in small quantities and offer unique designs and features that appeal to enthusiasts and collectors. These watches are often manufactured by independent watchmakers who have a passion for horology and want to showcase their creativity and craftsmanship”
#williamwood are a brand I am currently working alongside with my firefighter travel watch idea, I never thought I’d get the green light for this, but Jonny and the team sent me their Ruby Bronze watch and I can say it’s a beauty, the little details and inspiration behind the watch make it stand out above other brands, compliments to the design team for those. For example, the strap (recycled fire hose) with a rubber/burnt smell, I handed the watch over to the first firefighter last week and saw the hose pipes they used daily, it smelt exactly like the watch strap, and the crown, see details below.
Specifications –
CASE EXECUTION
Brushed bronze case, aluminium rotating bezel, laser engraved case back ring and open exhibition glass case back.
GLASS
Double domed sapphire crystal finished with a medium blue tint and double sided anti-reflective coating.
DIAL
Matte curved sandwich dial with cut-out indices, green.
Super-LumiNova sub-layer, 3pm date window, polished hands and fire bell chime inspired seconds marker.
CROWN
Bronze crown with a brass inset made from a 100 year old British brass firefighter's helmet
STRAPS
All straps have a 20mm lug distance and a quick release functionality allowing you to change straps without any tools required. (These straps have a smell of burnt hose, amazing.)
I say KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, if people want ROLEX etc they will buy them, but the #microbrand is here to stay.
Sorry @DeeperBlue it wasn't supposed to turn into a mini watch review 😂
Thank you Ben
I know you hear this every week, but I'm not sure I qualify as knowledgeable or creative. But I appreciate the mention!
You are welcome! 🍻
Thank you @DeeperBlue for another shout out. As always I truly appreciate it.
I lean towards heritage brands for the simple fact the thier procuct is proven, it works and for the most part classic.
While I like the idea that Micobrands can go out on a limb and create innovative watches. Think Studio UnderdOg or AnOrdain. I have a Norqian. I always wonder if they will be relevant down the road.
So my collection reflex my personality, safe, classic and boring. The same a marks of all great watch makers. 😂
This is interesting.
Does you love of a watch depend somewhat on where the brand goes in the future?
Do you need future-heritage as well as past?
Do you think you'd fall out of love with a watch if the brand went defunct?
It's not something I've ever thought about before, but maybe I would feel different about a watch if the brand crashed and burned.... hmm... Interesting thoughts! 🤔
That sounds like a positively apocalyptic experience of vintage watches @DeeperBlue very sorry to hear that.
90% of my watches are vintage and I'm yet to have one fail on me. I do service them as soon as I buy them.
What sort of problems did you encounter with yours?
Honestly.... a lot of it has been self inflicted... I have occasional bought vintage pieces I love for cheaps, knowing full well they don't work great to start with.
I have been a bit... rough... with them on occasion, such as when I ripped the crown out of one 🫣
I also had one that was occasionally stopping when in certain positions. I tried to 'fix' it with a spring bar tool... It didn't work.
Fortunately, most of my vintage watches have been cheap as chips, and so no tears were shed when they gave out on me.
I also have a £20 pin pallette Ingersoll that @Porthole has taught me to fear.
Honestly.... a lot of it has been self inflicted... I have occasional bought vintage pieces I love for cheaps, knowing full well they don't work great to start with.
I have been a bit... rough... with them on occasion, such as when I ripped the crown out of one 🫣
I also had one that was occasionally stopping when in certain positions. I tried to 'fix' it with a spring bar tool... It didn't work.
Fortunately, most of my vintage watches have been cheap as chips, and so no tears were shed when they gave out on me.
I also have a £20 pin pallette Ingersoll that @Porthole has taught me to fear.
And so you should…
It was great to meet all those microbrand owners at Stockholm Time and I’m a big microbrand fan. I’ve got to admit that I’m a real sucker for a good microbrand story. Don’t know if you had a chance to talk to REC but he allocates a different story to every watch by installing a different bit of vehicle metal in each watch. One of which had a bit of Evel Knievel’s motorbike. Gimmicky yes but I loved it and had to force myself to step away.
Bruce Lee...Evel Knievel...I'm all for the gimmick...I think they're targeting me 😂
Rich? I'm just lucky to have made it out alive. 🤣
In a few days time I hope to be in possession of my celebration watch. It's a microbrand, though not a Nodus, and it definitely wasn't something I was planning on but it's too good of a watch to pass up.
Looking forward to your NWA post!
That is very interesting what you say about design. Certainly looks are important, but would be second to any kind of emotional or nostalgic I get with a watch.
I'm curious, does that love of design make you particularly difficult to please? Does a watch have to be practically perfect to get your attention, or can you love watches for quite subtle features, such as the shape of the hands of the font used?
You know what I care about least in a watch?
The movement.
Yes, I like an automatic sweeping second hand, but I honestly don't care what movement is inside a watch as long as it's reliable.
I am indeed hard to please. And you're correct twice, I am sometimes attracted to one single and subtle design feature that wins me over. I've bought a watch because I just like the seconds hand.
But I should also clarify, when I say design it's not just looks for me. It's also the technology and materials. I think it's the reason I impulsively bought a titanium GS spring drive instead of an SMP I was originally set on.
I also think however, there can be a strong link with design and emotion beyond just a love of the technical like myself. Let's say your grandparent used to wear a Rolex two tone DJ. Then your emotional attachment to that particular watch may have less to do with Rolex's heritage and more to do with the fact the design/model reminds you of a loved one. For that matter, anything that looks like a DJ from any brand may have a similar effect.
Emotions are just too random to predict I guess is my point. I feel many people that think heritage is their main driver might be surprised at what triggers them when in the right mix or context.
Yeah, I guess i could say I'm a heritage brand appreciator as defined. I'm a big fan of the Alsta "jaws" Nautoscaph because when i was a kid i thought Hooper was one of the coolest characters EVER, even though I wasn't a big jaws fan. Now I'm a watch nerd and one of my funniest childhood memories has a watch!! It will be mine..o yes...it will be mine😎
I am an emotional buyer. Something about a particular timepiece has to resonate with me. When I saw they had resurrected the Sea Quartz, it brought back memories of my father. He loved Magnum, PI and we watched it together. I know Selleck switched to a GMT Master starting season 3, but it was his first watch I remember. The Orion Hellcat resonates with me on a personal level for reasons I won't share. For these, and a few others, the lack of heritage is superceded by the bond I form with them. A new heritage begins with me. They are mile markers that pinpoint events and times in my life. Once that bond forms, I wouldn't trade them for any heritage piece.
That being said, I am also smitten by Farer, Lorier and Smiths.
Absolutely.
As @dumihed mentioned above, some brands are leveraging history for all it's worth, even when it has questionable origins.
Microbrand stories often feel more 'real' and tangible than marketing speak from the big brands.
Yes, and one other thing, with microbrands, when we talk also about robust easy to maintain affordable watches, I tend to wear them more in more dire situations which soon means true personal stories attached to the watch. That outruns any other alleged history of more well established and expensive watches.
Example, my little Traska Summiteer in sandstone is becoming an all time favorite going with me to any extreme environment while the Explorer stays unworn, hidden, and sadly away to the extend that I'm wondering if it really has any sense to keep it.
Great posting as always!
I think it's the tribal association with a brand name that attracts many buyers.
Let's think about bands for a moment...how many will still go to see a band and consider it the real deal if it has at least one prominent member still in the band. How different is a Foghat cover band from the still rocking Foghat that only has the original drummer Roger Earl? Different lead singer and different lead guitarist...does the original drummer really make us believe that we are seeing and hearing Foghat...I think not. However, another band playing boogie woogie blues without the heritage will not be able to fill near as many seats. Why not?
This is the same thing that allows Doxa/Synchron/Jenny to sell thousands of watches, while microbrand dive watches struggle to sell 300 pieces. Doxa has an amazing history and is still owned by the Jenny family, but the revived Doxa really represents a resurrection of a heritage brand...just happened to be resurrected by its original owners.
Blancpain...resurrected in 1982 by Jean Claude Biver...and thank God he did...I love my Fifty Fathoms, but let's face it the FF from 2007 is not the FF from 1953.
Some view Squale like a microbrand or modern brand...it is not. It is still owned by the original family that distributed the brand and is still based in the same location in Switzerland where it was founded as the premier case maker for numerous brands' dive watches...including Blancpain. Check out this prototype Squale made for Blancpain (can you see the FF design here)...
I think what is lacking is education about the brands and to your point...the story.
I can just post the following image...
and you all know the story...making this particular watch highly desirable (together with the kitchsy Snoopy flying over the moon on the caseback).
So, all things considered, you are correct...we all like a good story that we can sink our teeth into that provides the heritage for the brand and the reference.
My final point...how many of you have the following watch in your collection...
Point proven...Q.E.D.
For me !! If it’s sexy I’m buying it. That’s it. I used to be fooled with heritage but no more I go and build what my heart desires 😁… at times heritage is just a marketing ploy to lure suckers like me… I just get fooled now cuz it’s sexy!! 🥳
Plenty of good comments about micro brands vs heritage which seem to be perceived as diametrically opposed ideals. For me, a micro brand represents an effort to break out of the norm, and to do it in an affordable manner.
While I’ve owned my share of micros, I have now landed back on certain brands that have established history while saving up for heavier-hitting (wallet debilitating) pieces.
Squale, Glycine, Longines are some that have entered my collection in recent years.
Thanks again for showcasing all the happenings here @DeeperBlue 🤝 and thanks for the mention of my last video posting 🥰
For me microbrands watches stand or fall by their design. If they try to appropriate some kind of history or heritage they don't have, that just detracts from them in my view
Thank you @DeeperBlue for the shoutout for my Watch Rules post!