Bites: How easily do you forgive?

Wow Im called knowledgeable 😆

This past weekend I learned that Rolex used to advertise its Submariner with ads featuring Ernesto "Che" Guevara as a rugged "...agent of social change...".

I found this characterization of Che............interesting.

And by me... so congratulations 😆

In researching the decline of the American watch industry I more and more came to the conclusion that Timex was a bad actor. Every trend that could have weakened the industry (moving offshore, cheapening parts and movements, making extravagant claims about ruggedness and accuracy) was spearheaded by Timex. I have owned plenty of Timex, but no longer. I will not perform the sorcery needed to service a vintage Timex movement. Timex bought Laco to control Laco's electronic watch designs (the best in Germany) and once obtaining them, dumped the company. (It had control of Durowe, a very good movement manufacturer, but Timex had no interest in good movements.)

Stuffing an off the shelf movement inside a case and calling it an in-house special is neither new nor restricted to horology.

A few years ago Lexicon, one of the more prestigious brand in the high end home audio and HiFi market, launched a Blu-Ray player for the discerning audiophile willing to pay 3,500USD, which is still a lot of money in 2023 and was quite a princely sum in 2010.

Audio magazines and reviewers were raving about it, until the team at audioholics made a startling discovery: Lexicon stuffed inside a BD player made by another company. They didn't use some parts or did any customization of their own, instead they literally stuffed a whole 500US$ Oppo BDP-83, chassis & all, inside one of their equipment case. It was a scandal that did a lot of damage to Lexicon reputation. I found the whole story and attempts at denial and cover up to be highly amusing, but this is only because I'm a terrible person who delight in the misfortune of other people.

At the risk of re-opening every controversy in the forum's history: I don't care too much about wearing a generic Vostok, but a large number of the brand's designs explicitly trade in Russian militarism and are themed after specific units now tied to recent atrocities!!! This is a damn shame because my favourite design of them all, with the most striking colour scheme, is also one of the most militaristic.

This is the super-macho, striped-tank-top-wearing VDV paratrooper unit notorious for taking enormous losses in the earliest days of the 2022 war. I just can't do it.

I am curious how many people wear these particular models without realizing that they look like this to any Cyrillic reader:

Generally I forgive very easily... I'm just too lazy to hold a grudge.

... and frankly, more often, it tends to be me seeking forgiveness rather than the other way round so it's not something I'm particularly familiar with.

For some this is a watch forum; for me it's therapy. 😏😁

Thank you @DeeperRed we are at 21 now!!!

For me it depends on the transgression. I’m more prone to forgive something that happened in world politics 75 years ago than I am fraudulent claims of components.

Depends on the topic. I’m quick to write people off. A brand where the current leadership has nothing to do with the past? I’m ready to move on quickly. It’s about the brand and product they are making today. There are some deceptive brands still operating today that’s I’d never consider no matter the fanfare. Others, like those mentioned with “in house” controversies? Meh, I know better and adjust accordingly.

The most beloved car brand in the world is Porsche, and we all know the history there. Ford? Ditto. Rarely is a company of that age controversy free. We move on, give the new design and leadership teams teams the benefit of the doubt, but I’ll never fault anyone for holding a grudge. To each their own.

I think it takes 1 or 2 generations to forgive. Growing up, I distinctly remember my grandfather had a disdain/hate for all things Japanese which was due to his experiences during WWII and having to flee the invasion of China with nothing but the clothes on his back. Even after immigrating to the US, he carried that bitterness with him, thus, our family never had a Sony TV or Honda/Toyota car. His eldest grandchild, my sister, was the first to get a Japanese car. Then, my sister and I bought my parents our first flat screen TV from Sony.

Experiences matter. A lot of us here, including myself, are fans of Seiko. They supplied watches and parts to Japan during the war. Generations later, I wear Seiko without having a second thought about what happened in WWII. I'm sure the same can be said about German watch brands supplying watches to the Axis.

In the current state of world affairs, I wouldn't expect anyone from Ukraine wearing a Russian made watch, or anything else for that matter. Time and distance helps one heal, but some wounds may be too deep to fully close.

@DeeperRed I would like to extend the olive branch and forgive you for not mentioning the "Wristy 365"

Shameful!🤣

The Seagull 1963. It has a communist red star on it, yet people wear it without comment. But of course nobody would wear a watch with a swastika on it, and for good reason.

So why the red star of communism? As an ideology it’s done far more damage than Naziism and it’s only because we happened to be allied with Stalin in WWII by necessity that this history has been whitewashed.

So the Seagull…neat watch and beautiful movement. But I won’t ever wear it.

As far as businesses who sold things to the Nazi war machine…I don’t mind so much, although the whole flieger design gives me second thoughts.

What really makes me squirm is the IWC Sptifire. The nerve it takes to market a Luftwaffe watch design under the name of the best enemy fighter, while ignoring that the only pilots wearing IWC during the war were shooting down Spitfires, not flying them….wow.

Beautiful watch though. 🙂

One of my finest quotes. Thank you 😆

My 10 year old is learning about slavery and racism in school and doesn’t understand why people would do that to other people. How do you explain to your child the concept of owning people? It’s revolting. As much as we’d like to think our species has evolved beyond that, slavery and forced labor still exists. Some things are unforgivable.

The real issue is that by the 1960's Timex brought us the first truly disposable watch. For the price it was too expensive to repair, but cheap to replace. The whole industry of watchmakers and jewelers that kept precious watches running was rendered obsolete. So, in one fell swoop, in order to capture the bottom of the American market, they undercut every conventional watch manufacturer and destroyed a service industry. I think that it also irks me that they did this while wrapping themselves in the American flag. Their movements were made everywhere but the U.S. (G.B., France, Germany, Hong Kong) and their cases were mostly made in Hong Kong and the watches were assembled wherever labor was cheapest. Maybe it was desperation that drove them, because they were always near bankruptcy.

And if that seems to be a little to American-centric, Timex also had a part in ending England's remaining watch companies. Smith's could not compete with cheap Timex and Seconda (Poljot) watches. Timex made a real push for that market in the 60's and 70's. Hans Wilsdorf's great insight was that Britain was unable to provide watches to its own market. America and the USSR provided the bottom end of the market and the Swiss (and later Japanese) provided the rest.

Capitalism is a fire that can warm, illuminate, and destroy. I prefer, as I suspect most of us do, watches that can be repaired and kept. The market, or at least a large part of it, does not feel that way. Swatch did something similar fifteen years later. The Swatch Group was only possible because the older Swiss brands were in complete freefall and Swatch was temporarily ascendant. Had Seiko been more aggressive, and trade policy in Switzerland less protectionist, there may have never been a Swatch Group. Compare this to how Citizen quietly acquired premier old brands in Europe and the U.S.

The high end home audio and HiFi market is being kept afloat on snake oil. Everything can be sold there because most of the customers want to be fed unicorn meat.

It's quite simple really. You just need to convince the populace that slaves are not really people and therefore it's OK to own them and that they, the owners, will never be slaves because they are better and real people.

It's been done so many time that I'm frankly surprised that slavery is not more common.

You just need to convince the people in power that’s they way they keep their power.

I think it’s more common than we want to acknowledge. And that’s the sad truth about humanity.

Usually I'm pretty quick to get over things and if an appology is offered, even quicker.

Grudges can go on and on though. Victorinox is still a NO-NO for me as is Luminox, albeit I did buy a Luminoz XCOR many years ago, after I wrote off Luminox; found one at tremendous discount so it became mine. I'm still PO'ed at Seiko (mechanicals) also.

What changes my mind about these "dead brands"? Mainly the aesthetics and expense (big big discount) are the determiners.

Let’s not forget that all watch companies contributed to the war effort in WWII. Even the Swiss watchmakers were making military watches to both sides.

The Waterbury Clock Conpaby made fuse and timing components used in bombs. I have a personal theory that the retooling of the US watch industry to make war materiel in WWII was the beginning of the end of the US industrial watchmaking. The Waterbury Clock Company gained the technical and mechanical expertise to mass manufacture Timex less than a decade later, they realized that there was more money to be made making missile components for the military industrial complex.

That was probably the opening that Seiko and Citizen had to surpass the US watch industry.

History is written by the victors. And history is based on your point of view.

The bomb dropped on a Vietnamese or Cambodian village by the US Air Force probably had a Timex component in it.

Yes, but all IWC’s watches are heavily influenced by the German flieger style. No, it’s not a one-for-one copy, but it’s very much there.

And IWC made watches for the RAF after the war when the Spitfire was obsolete. They’re trying to rewind history the decade or so they need to in order to be the good guys during the War.

I had responded to your original unedited comment but looks like it didn’t post. I’m not even following your point here. :-) IWC markets their watches as pilots watches. IWC never made pilots watches for the RAF during the war. That’s it.

If that doesn’t bother you, then cool! You’re in the majority and I hope you enjoy what is a beautiful watch. I think you may be taking this a little too seriously. 🙂

IWC made watches for the Allies as well as the Axis.

I meant to write “the only people wearing IWC pilots watches” but yes. You are technically correct. My mistake.