Bites: What is the watch enthusiasts responsibility when it comes to fakes?

Authenticity is a problem for those who care. It serves them right.

Great write-up and thanks for the mention! I don't think too much about fakes (unless I'm buying something) because I am a very guilty person. I am the paranoid type. If I were to ever buy a fake watch, I would be shaken by the idea that everyone somehow knows; my reputation as an upstarting watchmaker and watch enthusiast would be ruined, I would be jailed for a hundred and twenty thirteen years and my wife and children would leave me and move in with a Bulgarian construction magnate in Barbados. (I have a family in this imaginary world)

But discovering a watch I own is fake? I attempted to repair an admittedly bad fake Seiko 5 (I will not reveal how educated I was or when this happened to avoid embarrassment) but when I discovered that it was fake, I sort of just... went limp.

It sits in my drawer in case I ever need a running Miyota 2035 movement. But a watch that I have owned for months turning out as fake? I'd probably die a little. It's like discovering your dog was a mech powered by a brain-eating parasite. You can't kill the parasite, but destroying the dog mech might help. But the mech looks, sounds, smells and feels like your dog. Knowing that it is a parasite beneath the cybernetic skin doesn't make bludgeoning it to death with a sledgehammer any easier.

But if you don't kill it, the parasite gets you or someone else. Disposing of a fake watch, if it has sentimental value, is a difficult decision that I hope I never have to make.

Wow, that's a dark thought. There isn't an emoji for that. I'm going for a walk!

As an enthusiast who dabbles in modding occasionally, I have bought several aftermarket parts that are obviously not made by Seiko. And I can't say I care very much to be honest. If Seiko made an official LX bezel that plugs onto an SKX case or an official ceramic insert with the font I like, maybe I would have bought directly from them... But that's not an option. 🤷

And that extends to dials as well. I would gladly pay the premium for an OEM dial if Seiko would let a simple customer order the part, but as is, my choices are limited to a handful of models on third party websites that may or may not be replicas. Ignorance is bliss in that case.

All that to say, I enjoy the liberty of putting together a unique watch with all the design elements I want and, having to rely so heavily on aftermarket parts for a lack of official channels has desensitized me to the concepts of "real" or "fake". I wouldn't buy a Rolex replica but I'm perfectly happy with my frankenSeiko, fully knowing that most of its parts didn't come out of a Seiko factory. I would have preferred to, if that was possible.

It is kind of like avoiding addiction = just don't do it. Of course I'm addicted to watches so what do I know LOL

Thanks for an easy reading! Love the post, cheers 🥂

The intent behind buying second hand fakes is quite important.

Plenty of people buy second hand fake memorabilia just to spruce up their house or to serve as props. They bought them knowing these are fakes and are not going to sell or give them away under false pretenses.

I would never buy a fake, or something I strongly suspect to be one. Even if it was one of the watches I am really quite interested in wearing.

It’s a different world now in how they are made and sold, and that’s why I won’t go near it. This isn’t a tenner down the pub for a made in HK Quartz that’s has a Rolex Logo and looks, but quite obviously isn’t one after a look at the tick or popping the back off. Though no doubt even those were shady, they aren’t twenty-first century shady with all that and our world of ‘replicas’ and ‘super clones’ entails. Where a fake watch doesn’t cost as much as a real one, sure, but it’s still a big hefty chunk of change — that’s going more often than not to really bad people.

There’s one of those old pub-bought fakes in my care somewhere, bought long ago by one of my antecedents, and the only reason I haven’t taken a hammer to it — in all its fading gold-toned plating and dinged, peeling logo glory — is because it comes from a Hong Kong that doesn’t exist anymore, from a time and place, and also has some weird element of family history to it. Even though I know it was bought for a laugh, because that’s the only way it would have made it into the family junk drawers. The other reason is because, at some point, I am going to remove the logo, fix the date wheels, and paint the dial a little into a custom job. All of the history, none of the bad vibes then I hope. By this point I don’t even know where it is anymore — given my history with repairs, and moving furniture, it may have already died of natural causes somewhere.

It’s a bit like the old fox stole handed down the girls of the family from a grandmother — it’s very obviously not fake fur, and no one would want it now… but… history man. (I should see if that’s still knocking about… I reckon hanging it outside might stop the foxes shitting everywhere, and certainly help stop cold callers… )

Even George Bamford keeps a couple of Jekyll watches for similar reasons.

If you owned a business selling a specific product, and someone else comes along and sells a fake of that (probably at significantly higher volumes and at lower price point), would you be accepting of that?

Nice article. This hasn't happened to me, but there have been numerous stories in here if people given gifts of fake watches by others who loved them (kids, wives, parents, etc). Recently there were some posts about father's getting fake watches from their children as gifts for Father's Day.

If I recall correctly the child had used some of their funds to assist with the purchase. In this case especially, who cares. I'd wear that watch with pride. It was given out of love, by someone who is not an enthusiast, who thought I'd enjoy the gift.

Totally different scenario than someone intentionally buying a fake piece, to pass it off as either a real "grail" watch, or worse commit sometype of fraud and dupe others.

I have zero interest in fakes, but I also don't judge people too harshly for wearing them either.

Sometimes people get fake watches as gifts from well intentioned friends/family, and I see no reason why anyone should judge people for wearing them.

Fake watches are here to stay. As a watch enthusiast, I'm never going to call out anyone even if I knew they weren't wearing the real thing. They must have a reason to get it, and whatever it is, it's none of my concern.

I know a guy, damn genius. He wears a fake two tone Rolex ( have yet to ask him, but I know he would tell me the truth if I did. And yet he is such an amazing and helpful person that it just doesn't bother me. During his retirement party, I gifted him a genuine Longines 😀

Appreciate the shoutout and as usual, awesome read and recap.

The problem with fakes nowadays is that they are so good that they’re near indistinguishable from real. Gone are the days where you can spot a fake from a mile away.

Solution: buy from a reputable place/dealer.

Aside: lots of “fakes” are creeping into all industries, not just Watch collecting…impossible meat, cloud seeding, VR, AI. It’s all here. Are we ready for it?

Ok, fakes are bad. They come from Chinese sweat shops that use child labor and fund terrorism. Deplorable! I agreed 100%.

But what are you calling a fake watch? A fake Rolex or AP? I’ve seen new fake Oris watches on goggle for $200. I believe those are fake watches and should not be bought or worn.

But, would a cheap Chinese homage watch that you buy from AliExpress count? Or some micro brand that has a decent watch for an extremely reasonable price made in China. Fake or not? Made from sweat shops funding criminals or not? How do you justify that? Do you really know? There are a lot more questions than answers.

If someone can produce a comparable product cheaper, shame on me. The fact that there is doubt about "authenticity" proves that very comparable products exist.

We can note that designers have gotten very effective at clamping down on counterfeits. Rolex and the like see it as free advertising, perpetuating their brand recognition as something desirable. If they wanted fakes gone, they would be largely gone.

If the fake is so shoddy that it is readily recognized as fake, does this really sully the brand or cut into profits? Well, it does if the brand is esteemed more than the actual product. Such is the curse of selling hot air.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I answered the question based on my personal feelings and experience, this isn't a situation whereby you can tell me what I'm feeling and experiencing is wrong, it's one where I'm telling you how I'm feeling.

Now you might not feel the same, and that's okay, those are your feelings and it's fine.

Exactly this. We fill our lives with replicas of things we admire. Pirate muskets on the walls, framed Constitution and so on. We all understand they are fakes. Clearly they serve a purpose.

Where its a problem is when they are sold as real. I've seen fakes right here on WC. I've not said anything because it would be hurtful to the owner.

So now I'm going to rant.... There is NO WAY it costs anywhere near 10k to make a standard watch. You want to charge 500% over its actual premium value? You're gonna get faked.

And if someone wants to recreate it, I'm all for it. As long as its clearly sold as a replication and not attempting to scam you out of that 500% markup. No one is ever going to decide between real or fake. Either you are the $10,000 dollar watch guy, or you are the $200 watch guy. And there just isn't any loss. As long as there is no trademark infringement then there isn't any harm.

What's the worst part of this issue is when companies are sue happy and try to lay claim to everything and sue their way to success. That's just being a bully and I think they should win market via competition not lawsuits.

Now Swatch Group addressed the issue by making their own fakes with the moon swatch. That's how you compete! Lol

If someone has paid the price of a real watch, and not a fake, then they're within their rights to know if the watch is real, from the point of view that they haven't been scammed. I think that's pretty normal.

Bro, not sure why you responded the way you have.

"this isn't a situation whereby you can tell me what I'm feeling and experiencing is wrong"

Based on the above, it sounds like you are trying to restrict my speech.

But then you go and say that it is ok for me to not agree with "your" statement. lol I'm quite confused... Are you saying that I am not allowed to voice mine, but you are allowed to voice yours? We do not have to agree with one another, regardless of who says what, surely. 🙂

There are plenty of people that have commented on this post in favour of purchasing fake watches. I never told them that they are not allowed to say those things. I just came up with my own arguments to rebut. I'd like to think that what we have going on is a constructive conversation. If I manage to convince people with my reasonings, or vice versa, then its a win for the watch community, right?

In any case, I personally believe it is unethical to purposely buy (or sell) anything that is a counterfeit (per my previous comments). Even if it is used as a means of protection, like your example, however strange and counter productive the strategy being employed is. Its also illegal in some (if not most) countries to knowingly sell or buy fake goods. My 2c. 💪

100% I'd also like to show you an example of what I hate about fake watches. The liars and cheats who sell them as genuine.

https://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/225269555218

This watch is fake! It has been reported to eBay, will they act? We shall see.

Not at all, what I was trying to say was you posted an article telling me how I should feel, it isn't accurate. You are welcome to your opinion as I am welcome to mine.

I made no attempt to try and tell you what you can and can't say, I value everyone's opinion. Even if different toy own, actually more so if different to mine as it give me an insight into different perspectives.

I'm not a lover of copyright.

I don't believe I said anything about how you should feel.

I said I disagree with your views. I then offered an explanation on how wearing a fake watch as a means of insurance or protection only brings you cons with no benefits. Then I offered an alternative solution that in turn promotes watches that may be of lesser value, but still equally brilliant in its execution. If I have somehow brought your feelings into it (although I fail to see where I did that 🤣) then my bad and I apologize? lol

Copyright exists to protect the value of the creativity of the original creators, especially from big corporates that can basically come in and steal anything from the little guys. Sure there could be exceptions where it is not good, but I believe it is largely good. Not sure why you don't like it but happy to hear your reasonings.

I certainly don't want there to be any bad feelings here, I wasn't trying in any way to come off as aggressive, or restrict your speech, if it did come across that way, it was never my intention, sorry.

Excellent article and some great info and updates in there. Thanks for posting.

Regarding fakes…. I recently purchased a Seiko Prospex PADI turtle from a well know. Watch sales site “…….24” 🤷🏼‍♂️. Ines very happy with myself, it was a decent price - but it was still a sizeable chunk of my hard earned cash……. I didn’t really research the object (in my belated opinion) correctly - and to my surprise, when I started posting on social media, there were “hoards” of shouts….. “fake!!!” (You get the picture!?).

So I pulled all of my posts and did some thorough research, and lo and behold….. it was not the genuine article! 😢

Said website has a “no-fake” clause written into its t’s & c’s…… but only associated with “businesses” selling thereon…… however, this site responded to my complaints and said they would consider the claims if I could substantiate them…..

there started the search for a watchmaker who would firstly inspect the piece, then put his or her name to a piece of paper “condemning” this as a “counterfeit” timepiece…… it’s not easy - believe me……

Lo and behold a visit to my local jeweller (Seiko stockist), who said they could send it to Seiko uk - “for a fee”…… I’m thinking, if they can - so can I, which is what I did! And. BIG shoutout to Seiko UK, they confirmed my suspicions and wrote me a very nice letter condemning the timepiece.

The website did refund my money - and I got to keep the piece…… no idea how the website dealt with the seller!!??

Lesson to be learned……

RESEARCH, RESEARCH and more RESEARCH. only this way, can you (at least try) to limit sending your cash into the open arms of a fraudster.

I learned my lesson. And always thoroughly research what I buy PROPERLY from here on in.

(Sorry for the long winded comment…. 😳😉🤷🏼‍♂️).

Hi Kaysia! Thank you for a great bites, this must be a second job for you, I hope it’s enjoyable!

I’m in the ‘deplore’ camp for fakes, and stretch that definition to most Chinese Ali express homage watches which are utter and complete copies, sometimes with logo change and sometimes just ripping off that as well. Some current Ali listings:

I heard the Tudor black bay described as a Sub homage, and like that definition. Subtle cues, not cut/paste. Watches I see on Ali are not homages.

China has for decades stolen IP from the West in what’s described as the greatest transfer of wealth in human history by the NSA and any source you’d care to check. Child labor and borderline slave labor are problems there. Uighurs and Tibet, ecological destruction of the sea, and a hostile aggressive government.

If/when Taiwan is invaded will people stop buying fake or homage Chinese watches? What will it take?

I live in a city of obscene wealth from mainland china and these are the people who profit from the state of things.

Andrew on ‘Its about effing time” was going to start his own micro (70 to 100 to make, sell for 500! So easy!) …and then saw in background of video meeting with Chinese manufacturer deplorable working conditions and changed his mind, cancelled project (kudos to him!)

I think most micro brands in the 500 to 1k range likely are the same situation, Western dude who doesn’t know who he hired to make watches for him. How many go and tour their own facility?

Some disclaimers: this is not anti Chinese people. And living here means I’ve numerous Chinese Canadian friends and colleagues.

I know you can get good quality from a Chinese homage - one can afford to make quality cheaper if labor practice is criminally bad by our standards and you steal IP.

I know I can’t fully avoid, but that’s no reason to avoid when it’s easy to avoid. And no shade for honest mistakes buying fakes - it’s seller fault, not time to shame the buyer

Some of those reps nowadays are ridiculously good unfortunately.

I wouldn’t say it's fear mongering, more just about individual principals

You do you boo 👍

Since you can’t walk into a Rolex store and buy a Rolex watch is being a fake Rolex taking sales away from Rolex? In Korea they won’t even let you into the store.

Thankyou for the mention (knowledgeable member🤔😅) Now back in the day I have bought a couple of fakes (we're talking 25yrs+) on holiday, but they were so bad they were laughable,quartz and no WR (actually didn't make it home as a last night dip in the swimming pool). Nowadays they're a lot 'better' and harder to spot. I'd never knowingly buy one and I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing one. It must be gutting for someone to buy something believing it was real, especially if they'd paid a lot of money for it (as some do, hell even Omega got stung) but even if that happened to me i still wouldn't wear it to go out, no just couldn't do it. It would be a beater, for work n the rough stuff. Hommages OK , fakes a no no. Great piece as ever👍👍.

I recently asked myself the same question since I spotted a couple of obvious replicas in WatchCrunch’s WRUW (one ‘Pepsi’ and one ‘Submariner’) over the past couple of days. First was a replica Sub with a misaligned and poorly finished rehaut as the most obvious’tell’. Then came the replica Pepsi with the wrong hand stack and far too many ‘tells’ to list. One replica might be a mistaken purchase, but two…I don’t know. Still, it’s not my place to police another man’s purchase, second-hand or not, so — while I will debate the topic when it’s brought up or when asked — I prefer to just leave people to their devices and perhaps drop the occasional emoji here or there 😋

Regarding the topic of fakes, I’m firmly against both replicas and copies (ala Pagani, San Martin — someone else on here referred to them as ‘clomages’ and I quite like that term as they are not actually homages), purely from both an ethical and design standpoint. I just don’t see the point or value in propping up the factories that spew them when several great authentic options exist at the same or near-same price points.

I recently bought two replicas because my curiosity got the best of me (both Rolex). It was fun to tell a little white lie to a few people and on Instagram and made them think I hit the Jackpot. I'm raised a catholic so not all lies are created equal. lol.

I kind of felt good about it and it was like I stuck it to the man and watch snobs throughout the internet. Truth be told, I prefer Timex anyway.

Lastly, imho the only thing worse than a watch snob calling someone out on buying a replica is a grammer nerd correcting someone's spelling or punctuation on the internet.