Bites: How have Hodinkee got it so wrong??? ADDITIONAL: TIMEFACTORS DROP THIS WEEKEND
Hello watch fam!
***See 'Latest Watches' Section for Timefactors Info***
Before I share the issue I have with Hodinkee (if anyone from Hodinkee is on WC, I cordially invite you to come set me straight in the comments!) let’s have a quick run through the usual catchup on this weeks fun and games in the world of Watch Crunch.
This week:
New Member Welcome
Meetups and Events Calendar
Photo of the week
Latest watch releases
Hot posts
New: The Articles
The 3-6-9: The games we play - Part 2 (or: How have Hodinkee got it so wrong?)
NEW MEMBER WELCOME
A big hello to some of the new members I have seen joining in the discussions this week… @imstillgoingtobelate @HorologyElmo @BryanC @wordsandsuits @Shawn2nd @Namirays @vantechmag.com @Muragzda_254 @Jrodst1050 @ChasingTime @Linni_1 @Niklas898 @FlatteryCamp @yaboisans @GrizzlyJames @wido273
MEETUPS AND EVENTS CALENDER
Watchit! Watch Fair, Birmingham UK – 18th Feb
Watch Crunch Meetup Exploring the Rolex certified pre-owned scheme, London, UK – 21st Feb
SoCal WatchCrunch Meetup – Ventura, California – 25th Feb
EDIT: Added Event
District Time Event, Washington - 4th March
Birmingham Clock and Watch Fair, Birmingham, UK – 12th March
Watches and Wonders 2023, Geneva, Switzerland – March 27th – April 2nd
Windup Watch Fair 2023, San Francisco, CA – April 28th – 30th
If you know of any other events happening then let me know in the comments and I will add them to this list.
WATCH CRUNCH PHOTOGRAPHY CLUB
Last weeks ‘Weekly Photography Theme’ was set by @JaimeMadeira, who chose ‘Indirect’. Some great photographs were submitted, as always, and @JaimeMadeira chose @Iancognito as this weeks very deserving winner with this beauty of a shot:
Check out everyone’s shots from last week here, or come and join the WC photography club in this weeks thread. @DarkOverlord is our guest theme setter and judge this week, so come find out what he’s chosen.
LATEST WATCH RELEASES
Top row left to right: Maurice Lacroix Aikon Tide Mahindra, Grand Seiko Yukigesho, Monta Skyquest Opalin Limited Edition, Latest G-shock release
Second row: Isotope Hydriumx, New King Seiko, New IWC Portugieser, Rado True Square Limited Edition, IWC Portofino Complete Calendar
Third row: New Brellum Pilot GMT, Roger Dubuis Excalibur Blacklight, New Christopher Ward Sealander Colours, Legacy Machine LM2 palladium, Atelier de Chronometrie ADC22
Fourth row: Triwa Time for Snow, fratello x Aquastar Deepstar Limited Edition, Accutron Astronaut GMT, New Seiko Prospex
Fifth row: Delma Continental Pulsometer, Airtime tourbillon, New Laco Polar versions
ADDITIONAL: Timefactors drop this weekend!
Their store will open at 14:00hrs UK time 19th Feb for the Smiths Everest Gilt & Expedition.
HOT POSTS
We Crunchers can be a feisty lot, and we love a good debate in the comments section. Here are some of the threads from this week which stirred our passions…
Has the watch community transitioned from niche to sheesh? – @erikswrist has some feelings about the state of the watch community he needed to get off his chest.
Is that it? – @ToolWatchTom is rightly offended by Europe’s boring vote for the Seiko 5 55th anniversary watch.
Omega becoming Rolex – @Rowiphi is saddened that Omega seems to be going the way of Rolex, and not in a good way.
There are a few talented content creators on WC who take the time to create wonderful longer pieces of writing for our community. Inspired by @Edge168n, one of our informal WC columnists, I am going to start to include links to these posts when they are published so that those who enjoy a more thought-provoking read know where to find them.
@Porthole – The Perils of Vintage #81… or because something in the universe just hates you
@Edge168n – Watches in the wild: Caught in the act, Volume 22
@Aurelian – The Perils of Vintage #381
@HotWatchChick69 – I sold my Grand Seiko sbge257 to buy a 6 sided Pokemon die: AKA Why you should never have kids
@CelineSimon – What is a grand complication?
THE 3-6-9: EDITORS RAMBLINGS
The games we play - Part 2 (or: How have Hodinkee got it so wrong??)
You have @AnalogExplorer to thank (blame?) for this week's ramblings. In his latest podcast he mentioned the concept of 'avant-garde' in relation to watches. This was with regards to Urwerk and also the tiny microbrand Barrelhand, in terms of their design and manufacturing. As you can see from the pictures, I don't think there is really any arguing that both these brands are well and truly in the avant-garde bracket, but it got me thinking about what actually is avant-garde in watch making and what other watches fit that title?
This is where Hodinkee come in. Did you know they have an 'Avant-garde' section in their online watch shop? It has the description: "A selection of watches that have pushed the limits of standard time piece design or functionality". Ok. So shall we see what they have in their avant-garde line up? Here is a selection…
Really? I don’t think so Hodinkee.
The watches I give a pass to and can stay on the avant-garde list are the Trilobe Nuit Fantastique, the Accutron, the Ressence Type 1 and maybe, maybe, the Bvlgari Octo Finissimo. Everything else can sling it's hook and find space in a different Hodinkee section.
I mean, what are the likes of the Oris big crown, the Seiko Alpinist and the Hamilton Khaki field doing in there?? You could perhaps put up a weak argument that the G-Shocks were a big thing at the time of their initial release, but I think the word Hodinkee are looking for is 'innovative', not avant-garde.
To me, if a watch is 'avant-garde' it is beyond the realm of just a natural progression or development of a design or movement. It's a completely 'wipe the slate clean' approach. I think by their very nature they have to either make you go 'WOW' or 'URGH', or at least make you appreciate that they've taken a radical approach. Actually, going by this, I can probably cross the Trilobe off the list.
I am a magpie for the unusual so would love to add something more avant-garde to my currently very safe collection, but as @AnalogExplorer pointed out, watches in this category tend to come with a very hefty price tag. The cost of innovation. So is there anything out there for the budget conscious that can give a taste of the eccentric millionaires watch choice? Well, I guess it depends on where you draw the line. There are plenty of watches like this....
... out there, which I guess fit the bill, but in my definition of avant-garde there has to be originality, intention and thought put into the design for it to count. So, I drew up a shortlist of 3 sub-£500 watches that I think go some way to fitting the definition while not being Elon Musk money.
The CIGA Design Series X Machina
'The Chinese bad-boy ladies watch' 'True avant-garde heritage brand'
Cost: ~£300-£380
Why is it avant-garde?: This is the watch I alluded to last week. CIGA design are the Chinese microbrand that gave us the award-winning Blue Planet. A truly unique timepiece that was every YouTubers darling for a while. The X Machina is certainly more of a mainstream design, but as a watch designed and marketed to women and yet with a whopping 44mm square case, it's certainly not sticking to design norms. In addition, it has an in-house movement (likely a modified Seagull) which has been designed to fit with the x-skeletisation of the dial, a ceramic case and, I quote: “An integrated scale design that extends to the case, creating a new method for reading time”.
Cons: I would need to wear a second watch if I actually wanted to know the time.
2. The Bulova Accutron Spaceview
'Vintage avant-garde' 'The people's choice'
Cost: ~£300-£1000+ (depending on model and if you can grab a bargain)
Why is it avant-garde?: As I understand it was not originally a dial-less watch. The movement was so exciting at the time the ADs would have models with the dial removed on display so that people could wonder at it. The dial-less model was so popular that Bulova created a specific version to sell to the public. It is the movement rather than the design which wins the avant-garde badge for this piece. This has been on my list to buy for a long time.
Con: TGV has one, so too mainstream?
'A celebration of quartz'
Cost: ~£250-£390 (easy to find discounts)
Why is it avant-garde?: Unique (I think? Tell me if you know of anything similar) partial skeletisation of an inhouse quartz movement, while still giving attention to detail for the dial design. Other watches in The Electricianz line up are 'hybrids', with quartz and mechanical movements inside. To me, these give the 'watch-diorama' vibe that you see in high-horology pieces at 0.1% of the cost.
Con: So big it would be like wearing a fire alarm on my wrist, with a diameter of 45mm.
So out of my line up of 3 I have gone ahead, taken a gamble, and bought one. As I've said, avant-garde watches tend to illicit a love or loath it reaction (much more likely to be 'loath it' in the watch community I’ve noticed!), and I've seen none of these in the metal, so I really am rolling the dice with this one. I’ll let you know which I’ve bought and how it turned out next week.
Is Hodinkee being ridiculous in their watch choice for their avant-garde category, or is it me who has the definition wrong?
Are any of MY choices any better, or would you more likely put them under the bracket of 'Just weird and not very pretty'?
Am I kidding myself thinking I can get true avant-garde design for cheaps?
What is your definition of avant-garde?
If you are feeling brave, let me know your thoughts!
Take care watch-fam. Till next week.
K.
Banner photo: Grand Seiko SBGJ261, part of the Hodinkee avant-garde collection.
Last week’s quiz answer: The real F91W was C!
Part-time 'writter' @ The Escapement Room, the NSFW watch enthusiasts blog. www.theescapementroom.com/
More from DeeperBlue
The Hodinkee selection looks like a messed up Kindle books category — where people have just stuck any old thing in, in the hopes it will be seen more in a niche category rather than lost in the place it should be.
None of those are exactly ‘vampires pretending to be humans pretending to be vampires’ or in this case ‘quartzes pretending to be mechanical pretending to be quartzes’ or some such.
I have only occasionally brushed up against Hodinkee since getting into watches, and almost every time I find their approach to be a bit weird. This is one of those times. I think I prefer reading airline magazines trying to flog me watches, truth be told.
Their app does have a very nice useful clock in, mind you.
I think Hodinkee has got it right. The SBGJ261 is avant-garde! I mean, that's the only reason I got it. Anybody who knows me knows that I am always at the forefront of fashion, the bleeding edge of cool, the revolutionary!
Look at that! Look at how "galaxy brained" this watch is!
It goes perfectly with my gym outfit...
The Hodinkee selection looks like a messed up Kindle books category — where people have just stuck any old thing in, in the hopes it will be seen more in a niche category rather than lost in the place it should be.
None of those are exactly ‘vampires pretending to be humans pretending to be vampires’ or in this case ‘quartzes pretending to be mechanical pretending to be quartzes’ or some such.
I have only occasionally brushed up against Hodinkee since getting into watches, and almost every time I find their approach to be a bit weird. This is one of those times. I think I prefer reading airline magazines trying to flog me watches, truth be told.
Their app does have a very nice useful clock in, mind you.
I don't understand why they feel the need to have that section at all. Everything in there could happily fit elsewhere and it just looks daft when you have to pad it out with bog standard Hamilton's and Oris's.
Perhaps if you are a non-watch person a full bronze Oris is properly crazy? 🤷♀
I think Hodinkee has got it right. The SBGJ261 is avant-garde! I mean, that's the only reason I got it. Anybody who knows me knows that I am always at the forefront of fashion, the bleeding edge of cool, the revolutionary!
Look at that! Look at how "galaxy brained" this watch is!
It goes perfectly with my gym outfit...
Yep. I can imagine the Grand Seiko design meeting when someone suggested a blue dial with a yellow GMT hand...
Once again thank you for another fine issue!
Okay Hooooodinke who? Don't get me on a rant here, moving on.
Keep the great content coming! I really appreciate what you do here!
Cheers!
I think Hodinkee has got it right. The SBGJ261 is avant-garde! I mean, that's the only reason I got it. Anybody who knows me knows that I am always at the forefront of fashion, the bleeding edge of cool, the revolutionary!
Look at that! Look at how "galaxy brained" this watch is!
It goes perfectly with my gym outfit...
Ah yes, the Arakeen running club. Don’t forget to jog without rhythm — that’s why you need the hi-beat movement.
Once again thank you for another fine issue!
Okay Hooooodinke who? Don't get me on a rant here, moving on.
Keep the great content coming! I really appreciate what you do here!
Cheers!
I don't really touch the world of Hodinkee very much, but I do see little comments here and there suggesting there is some issue people have with them. Is it the case of them reviewing watches they sell? I feel I am out of the loop with this. Maybe I need to watch more ranty YouTube vids.
I don't understand why they feel the need to have that section at all. Everything in there could happily fit elsewhere and it just looks daft when you have to pad it out with bog standard Hamilton's and Oris's.
Perhaps if you are a non-watch person a full bronze Oris is properly crazy? 🤷♀
Perhaps they need the shelf space, metaphorically speaking, even if there’s nothing there to sell yet. Like having a bunch of Vileda mops in a space marked Easter Eggs, waiting for them to come in.
So that begs the question, what did they think it meant??
A watch that isn't Omega or Rolex?
Hodinkee had 24 slots to fill on the page. You take what you have from the shop.
How did they get it wrong?
Not understanding what avant-garde means.
Avant-garde usually is aesthetically innovative, whilst initially being ideologically unacceptable to the artistic establishment of the time. (borrowed from Wikipedia, as I would have prattled on for at least double the word count to say the same thing)
I'd argue that from an aesthetic POV, none of those pictured watches are close to avant-garde; though within the narrow parameters of a watch, maybe we should include the Ressence & the Accutron.
Also, today's avant-garde is either tomorrow's mainstream or tomorrow's trash bin. A design can be such for only so long before society changes and accepts it or it's champions ultimately reject it in favor of the new avant-garde.
Perhaps they need the shelf space, metaphorically speaking, even if there’s nothing there to sell yet. Like having a bunch of Vileda mops in a space marked Easter Eggs, waiting for them to come in.
Ah... So they are wistfully waiting for the Richard Mille's, Hublot Tourbillons and alike to come in?
I do think that the big chunky modern G-Shocks could be considered avant-garde? I think we are just getting used to the extreme design and size. If anyone else put out anything like it I would probably puke and call them pretentious idiots 🤭
Hodinkee had 24 slots to fill on the page. You take what you have from the shop.
Yeah, it absolutely just feels like they just stuck anything in there to pad out the shop. It makes them look daft. 🙄
Yep. I can imagine the Grand Seiko design meeting when someone suggested a blue dial with a yellow GMT hand...
But then the intern came up with a nature metaphor, and all was well.
(A lot of my favorite watches are GS, so just poking a little fun).
Not sure if it's a luxury brand, but I am thinking of MeisterSinger
'What is luxury?' is a whole other kettle of fish 😆
I had forgotten about MeisterSinger. Masters of the single hander!
I kinda like the “thumbing your nose “ approach H Moser & Cie took with their “Apple watch” . A very expensive “ in joke “ for watch collectors. Avant Garde ? No just rich behaviour for those with too much money ( nice movement but pass …. ) ship me an FP Journe . Sense of humour possibly. In all engineering concentrics a masterpiece of watch making , let me make that abundantly clear that’s what I should have emphasised.
This one?
Yes, not Avant Garde, but I do love a watch brand with a sense of humour.
Ah Hodinkee. Just another reason why I avoid them. All they want to do is sell watches, sometimes for absurd amounts. Seems if they are selling it, is is great. If they aren’t....
Ah Hodinkee. Just another reason why I avoid them. All they want to do is sell watches, sometimes for absurd amounts. Seems if they are selling it, is is great. If they aren’t....
I truly didn't think I'd be kicking the hornets nest so much with this one!
It must be hard to walk the line of entrepreneur and enthusiast, and Hodinkee may be struggling it seems 🫤
This fits your new and improved definition of avant-garde. This has basically the same internals as a Spaceview, the same movement. It is pretty, but is it new and experimental?
This is why avant-garde is normally applied to the arts and not industries. Fracking is not avant-garde in my understanding. Arnold Schoenberg and Marc Chagall can easily be described as avant-garde while it is a stretch to apply that same label to Alexander Graham Bell or Thomas Edison. Were the first generation of watches with Incabloc avant-garde? I think not.
The way the Spaceview came about was accidental. Composing with the twelve tone method was certainly intentional.
Aurelian 1 Deeperblue 0
Ah, but we all know we love to put watches in that special grey zone between art/design/engineering/history, so you can't bottle out by saying Avant-garde isn't applicable to watches. The movement is such an integral aspect of the watch that it has to be taken into consideration.
Accutron was a real innovation in watch movements, unlike Incabloc, which was simply a progression of existing movement design, so different beasts entirely.
Presuming the dials didn't just fall off in the display window, showing it off was evidently intentional, not accidental. It was never expected to be as popular as it was, but then Avant-garde doesn't expect to be popular.
Aurelian 1 Deeperblue 1 (own goal)
Yes! They definitely count!
I think it would be interesting to have a discussion about beauty and watches actually. It kind of dovetails with this conversation, because many of the truly crazy watch designs aren't beautiful in the classic sense of watch style. But I'm convinced we aren't here just for the looks, otherwise we wouldn't care about the movements like we do.
Agreed. But there is beauty in movements and engineering too! With all the effort in display casebacks and geneva stripes and beveling...
Ah, but we all know we love to put watches in that special grey zone between art/design/engineering/history, so you can't bottle out by saying Avant-garde isn't applicable to watches. The movement is such an integral aspect of the watch that it has to be taken into consideration.
Accutron was a real innovation in watch movements, unlike Incabloc, which was simply a progression of existing movement design, so different beasts entirely.
Presuming the dials didn't just fall off in the display window, showing it off was evidently intentional, not accidental. It was never expected to be as popular as it was, but then Avant-garde doesn't expect to be popular.
Aurelian 1 Deeperblue 1 (own goal)
I wasn't saying that avant-garde wasn't applicable to watches (except for a certain Bulova one) it is just that watch movements are not usually what we are talking about. The point of showing an Accutron that was not distinctly avant-garde despite having the exact same movement was meant to emphasize this crucial point.
The legend of the Spaceview is that it was originally just supposed to be a display model that later went into production because of the buzz that it created in salesrooms. That is why I made the point about intent. I don't know that you can be accidentally avant-garde.
Anyway, I am bored with this and not really arguing from any firm conviction. I would also argue that these labels are completely subjective and arbitrary. You dismiss the Moser as avant-garde. I may not. It may also be Dada due to its humorous intent. (But, can you really have anything that is Dada anymore?)
Let me just congratulate you on all of the views that this post has collected (717 at the time of this comment). WC picked the right person for this news weekly.
Thank you @Deeperblue for the tag - I have so much catching up to do here! I'm gone a few days and there's so much good stuff I missed. These roundups are so helpful 🍻
Ah, but we all know we love to put watches in that special grey zone between art/design/engineering/history, so you can't bottle out by saying Avant-garde isn't applicable to watches. The movement is such an integral aspect of the watch that it has to be taken into consideration.
Accutron was a real innovation in watch movements, unlike Incabloc, which was simply a progression of existing movement design, so different beasts entirely.
Presuming the dials didn't just fall off in the display window, showing it off was evidently intentional, not accidental. It was never expected to be as popular as it was, but then Avant-garde doesn't expect to be popular.
Aurelian 1 Deeperblue 1 (own goal)
I think FP Journe would have been avantgarde in the 1920s . Some very “ Salvador Dali esk “ pieces in their collection. I adore their design language and hand sets , dials , cases .
As always, awesome article @Deeperblue! Hats off to you.
Congrats as well, @IanCognito! Really cool and creative shot! 
I've never read or even visited their site before. The first I heard of Hodinkee is on The Time Tellers channel. And of course they compared letting someone wear your watch to letting someone sleep with your wife. I don't think they really have an idea of how anything works. Pretentious and out of touch comes to mind.
As always, awesome article @Deeperblue! Hats off to you.
Congrats as well, @IanCognito! Really cool and creative shot! 
Thanks and thanks to @JaimeMadeira for choosing me as the winner! 😎👍
I truly didn't think I'd be kicking the hornets nest so much with this one!
It must be hard to walk the line of entrepreneur and enthusiast, and Hodinkee may be struggling it seems 🫤
I just don’t think much of their opinions. It is nearly impossible to neurally review a product or service if (A) you sell said product (B) you accept advertising dollars from service businesses you review, which is why “I do not trust a Dale”. 😁
PS: Hornet nest reminds me of the old days of usegroups and mailing lists on the Internet. Anyone want to participate in a good natured flame war? 🤣
Former H guy here.
Interesting feedback re: Hodinkee. Not necessarily the avant-garde discussion, but the general feedback.
Am I kidding myself thinking I can get true avant-garde design for cheaps?
One watchmaker comes to mind, it's Fernando Ronzon:
https://www.instagram.com/f.ronzon/?hl=en
A whole lot of character for a very, very fair price.
Avant garde a clue!