Luxury brands are misleading all of us with the fiction of their "artisan watchmakers." AKA, why it takes 3 months for your watch to get serviced, when it should actually take 2 weeks

[Begin aside]

PSA:  Do yourself a big favor right this very moment, and go to https://theescapementroom.com/

There you will find many articles written by fan favorites @DeeperBlue @Porthole and @Aurelian.  My god, I can't remember the last time I've laughed so hard. Their posts are eff'ing brilliant.

[End aside]

Something broke!

Recently, something went terribly wrong with my King Seiko SPB279…

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It started running +5 SPM.  Yes, SPM = seconds per minute.  

I had placed the watch next to my Qi phone charger overnight, and in the morning, it had gone haywire.  I thought, “Oh, darn, I must have magnetized the watch, because Qi chargers obviously create magnetic fields!”

I busted out my $10 demagnetizer, but even after three passes, the watch was still running +5 SPM.  I then took the King Seiko to my local watchmaker.  When I suggested that perhaps the watch had gotten magnetized, he responded, “Do you work inside of an MRI machine all day?”  

I said, “Not that I’m aware of.”  

Turns out that Qi chargers will create magnetic fields something on the order of 3 milligauss, while the SPB279’s 6R31 movement has an antimagnetic resistance rating of 4,800 a/m, which translates to ~60 gauss.  

“No, something’s really gone wrong with the movement.  Just send it in for warranty repair,” he said.  

Warranty repair???

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The typical Swiss luxury watch warranty repair experience

The only other time I’ve had to deal with warranty repair is when I had to send in my Breitlings.  I had purchased both the Breitling Premier B01 in Bentley racing green and the Ref. 763 AVI 1953 re-edition brand new…

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... and in both cases, the watches broke within 1 month of ownership!

And when I brought them into the local Breitling boutique to have them sent out for warranty service, I got kicked out of the store by the 2 sales associates working there for daring to question the build quality of Breitling watches.  One of the associates literally yelled at me, “No!  We will not work with you!  Get out!”  I suspect their violent reaction partially (mostly) had to do with the fact that they were both very good-looking gals, and it must have been a shock and an inconceivable insult for someone with my troll-like visage to dare to question them about QC…  and, well, fair enough!  Beautiful people deserve our worship, and that’s just how the world works!

After I got kicked out of the store, I ended up calling Breitling directly, and sent in the watches myself.  Total time elapsed between sending out the watches and getting them back in hand?  Just a smidge over 3 months.

Based on everything I see here on WC, that seems to be about the norm - the 3 months part, not the getting thrown out of a boutique part.  

Seiko warranty service

Another thing I always read here on WC is that dealing with Seiko North America service is only slightly preferable to having your toenails pulled out by this guy…  

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And, sure enough, when I called up Seiko North America, all my previous apprehension was immediately confirmed.  A service associate picked up the phone, and I couldn’t make out a single thing she was saying, due to a) the fact that she sounded like Gilbert Gottfried, from (what I assume is) a lifetime of heavy smoking…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zest0dXmsDc

… and b) she was clearly taking the call from her home, and there were 3 Rottweilers barking and snarling in the background, probably having just managed to bring down a Yukon moose and maul it to death, or whatever wildlife it is they have there in New Jersey.  Maybe this...

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Somehow I managed to get the service center address from the associate.  

What happened next blew my eff'ing mind...

  • Day 1 - Packed up the King Seiko and shipped it via UPS Ground

  • Day 7 - Got an email confirmation that the service center had received the watch

  • Day 8 - Got an email indicating that a watchmaker was inspecting the watch

  • Day 11 - Got an email indicating that the watch was fixed and had been handed over to UPS to be shipped back to me via UPS Ground

  • Day 19 - Watch in hand, and everything fixed

Now, from sending out to receiving back, the total length of time the watch had been out of my hands was two-and-a-half weeks!  And this is a wild exaggeration of the actual service time, because 18 days out of the 19 were consumed by UPS Ground transportation and weekends!  In reality, Seiko Service North America received the watch on a Thursday, someone worked on it on a Friday, and then they shipped it out the very next working day, the following Monday.  Seiko servicing took, literally, like 1 business day!!!

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So, why then does it take Breitling (and every other Swiss luxury brand) 3 months?

Well, it’s because the Swiss luxury brands need to continue to perpetuate the myth of the "artisan watchmaker."

The pitfalls of hand-crafted artisanship

We all have this romantic notion that artisans imbue their wares with love and passion through their hand-crafting.  But, uh, this is what you really get when you don’t have division of labor, automation, and gains through trade and specialization - and instead build things with hand-crafted artisanship…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODzO7Lz_pw

In reality, 99% of the luxury watches we all buy and talk about here on WC (Rolex, Tudor, Omega, GS, Breitling, etc., etc.) are just mass manufactured man-jewelry, no more “lovingly hand-crafted” than your Samsung microwave is lovingly hand-crafted.  Here, check out Bark & Jack’s video on Tudor’s watchmaking…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLdd5M3FZNk

And, recently, @Max mentioned in one of his videos that he was somewhat scandalized to learn that when you send in your Tudor for service, they just pull the movement right out, and stick in a brand new one, rather than painstakingly disassembling them, identifying the 1 out of 234 components that isn’t operating perfectly, and then painstakingly reassembling, etc., etc.  Check it out at the 5:30 mark…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJcgbYcYlZ0

And, well, rip and replace is precisely what Seiko did!  They just took out the broken 6R31 movement, and stuck in a brand new one, and then immediately handed my King Seiko over to UPS!  And I love them for it!

The hand-crafted artisanship of our luxury watches is all one big marketing / branding exercise.  Check out @TheHoroSexual’s awesome post about this!

https://www.watchcrunch.com/TheHoroSexual/posts/fine-watchmaking-market-map-232692

The luxury brands need us to delude ourselves into thinking that there’s some wizened, white-haired master watchmaker toiling over every little detail of our luxury watches, in order to play up the romance, the history, the heritage, etc., etc.  None of that’s true, but here’s the funny part:  In order to better perpetuate this lie, when it comes to servicing, these brands actually do have service centers where they pay people to disassemble watches and painstakingly service the movements!!!  That’s why it took 3 months for Breitling to fix my broken Premier B01 and AVI 1953!  If they were to simply replace the broken movement with a brand new one, and I got my Breitlings back within the span of 2-and-a-half weeks, I might become suspicious. No, no, this is what they're all screaming…

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No, it’s better to pay Swiss workers crazy Swiss salaries, to do a meaningless job taking apart mass-produced movements and reassembling them by hand, rather than doing the cost-effective and much more efficient thing of simply placing in new movements.  Customers would get their watches back in 2 weeks, instead of 3 months, but this would let slip to the buying public that we’re really just paying for brand (romance, history, heritage, ambassadors, etc.) when we buy these luxury watches.  

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[And, we are paying A LOT of money for that Swiss labor in those service centers!]

I’ve heard that the manufacturing cost of any given luxury watch is on the order of 1/20th of the MSRP, and I believe it.  How else can a Chinese manufacturer sell a super rep, indistinguishable in every way from the $10k genuine article, for $400 and still clear a healthy profit?  

“But, surely, these movements must cost a lot of money to build!” one might say.  Yes, the fixed costs of R&D, the fixed costs associated with raising a factory on expensive Swiss soil, the fixed costs associated with installing all the specialized machines, tooling, and robots in the Swiss factory, etc., etc., are all incredibly high.  However, once all that fixed cost has been spent, the VARIABLE COST associated with materials and manufacturing any Rolex, Omega, Cartier, etc., etc., is minuscule in comparison.  If Rolex, or Omega, or Cartier were to ever sell one of their movements to you or me, they would charge an arm and a leg for the movement itself, but only because they’re amortizing all their fixed costs into the price.  But, on a variable basis, maybe a $7,050 Cartier Santos costs like $300 to make?  Heck, that’s why I was able to buy these 3 for $600 total, shipping included!!!

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The fixed costs that Chinese manufacturers pay are much lower than the fixed costs of the Swiss - lower land prices, lower cost to raise factories, lower tooling and equipment costs, etc., etc., so even when they incorporate fixed cost amortization, Specht & Sohne can still make profit selling a watch nearly identical to the Santos for $200.  

No, the key difference is that the Chinese manufacturers don’t sponsor Formula One, nor do they have Ashton Kutcher as their ambassador, like Rolex does…

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What we’re really paying for in our luxury watches is brand affinity - the Swiss luxury brands spend an ABSOLUTELY ENORMOUS amount of money on marketing.  And that’s a good thing, actually!  Even though I know that my affinity for a given brand is entirely bought and paid for by marketing dollars, I still LOVE certain brands!  But brand and value of branding is a subject for another 8,000 word post at a future date.

Do you prefer waiting for 3 months or 2 weeks to get your watch back from servicing?

Suffice it to say, any one of these mass luxury brands could immediately adopt the “stick a brand new movement in it, instead of fiddling with disassembly / reassembly” protocol, as Seiko has.  And instead of taking 3 months for you to get your watch repaired and back on wrist, you’d only have to wait about 2 weeks.  

But, here’s my question for you:  Would you want them to?  Be honest here.  Would you want to get your Rolex / Omega / Cartier / IWC / GS / etc. watch back in 2 weeks, knowing full well that all they did was stick in a new movement that was sitting on a shelf in inventory that some machine built almost entirely without any human intervention?  Or would you rather wait 3 months, but continue to bask in the illusion of some artisan painstakingly, lovingly, hand-crafting your luxury watch?

Reply
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Omg!! I read it all in one sitting!! Answers is … Get A Seiko!! 🥳🍻

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I'm with you, swap that movement and get it back to me ASAP.

It's a machine with parts that wear. They will get replaced over time, so no watch after a service or two is "all original". Even just adding new lubrication has made the watch not "original" if you want to be a stickler...

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Ichibunz

Omg!! I read it all in one sitting!! Answers is … Get A Seiko!! 🥳🍻

I have another post coming soon, and the answer is "Get an @ichibunz one-of-a-kind unique build"!!!

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I work for a luxury watch company and we take in 100s of services a week. With all the boutiques sending most watches to a central location, the que would be exponentially longer given the other boutiques service intake so 2-2.5 months in my opinion isn’t too bad. That being said i always suggest a service done by the manufacturer. But there are loads of great watch makers that could get it back to you faster, mind you if it dosent void the warranty and they do not replace your parts with generics. If that’s done most manufacturers workshops would consider that an aftermarket defect and would not work on the watch. If your looking for true luxury and craftsmanship look at independent watchmakers like FP Journe if your pocket permits.

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KristianG

I'm with you, swap that movement and get it back to me ASAP.

It's a machine with parts that wear. They will get replaced over time, so no watch after a service or two is "all original". Even just adding new lubrication has made the watch not "original" if you want to be a stickler...

Yes!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldoh71uNZmk

By the way, in that same upcoming post about the @Ichibunz one-of-a-kind build, I have a prominent quote from the very wise @KristianG about Seiko prices and nostalgia for the days when "Seiko provided good value."

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Hey Swiss watch manufacturers! STAY OFF MY LAWN!

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Ship of Theseus.

I think ultimately it goes back to the romanticism of it all. We buy into the marketing that it's an heirloom, and it will "outlive us". Bring an Heirloom we want the watch to be as original as possible, hence why we also appreciate and focus on full box and papers, receipts, tags, plastic, etc. WE WANT THE ORIGINAL! Swapping a movement is so blah!

At Windup NYC, I asked the Oris folks about the Caliber 400, and if I were to service it, would they have swapped it out with a 400-2, they said "not to their knowledge at the moment". But I bring this up, because at some point movements are phased out, and there would be a need for a watchmaker to take it apart to repair it. Unless Brands are ok with popping in a newer movement on a older model(therefore legitimizing frankenstein watches!)

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Skilly

Hey Swiss watch manufacturers! STAY OFF MY LAWN!

Yeah, typically, this kind of rant we would expect coming from @Porthole and @Aurelian, right?

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Cometman

Ship of Theseus.

I think ultimately it goes back to the romanticism of it all. We buy into the marketing that it's an heirloom, and it will "outlive us". Bring an Heirloom we want the watch to be as original as possible, hence why we also appreciate and focus on full box and papers, receipts, tags, plastic, etc. WE WANT THE ORIGINAL! Swapping a movement is so blah!

At Windup NYC, I asked the Oris folks about the Caliber 400, and if I were to service it, would they have swapped it out with a 400-2, they said "not to their knowledge at the moment". But I bring this up, because at some point movements are phased out, and there would be a need for a watchmaker to take it apart to repair it. Unless Brands are ok with popping in a newer movement on a older model(therefore legitimizing frankenstein watches!)

You bring up a really good point!

You're 100% right in that it totally makes sense for a brand to have watchmakers in their service centers to fix vintage watches, where the original (phased out) movements are no longer going into new pieces. That makes perfect sense. Where else can you get the expertise and the parts, but from the original manufacturer?

That's a brilliant insight!

For the latest movement on my 2 year old watch, though? Just swap in a new movement!

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Mr.Dee.Bater

I have another post coming soon, and the answer is "Get an @ichibunz one-of-a-kind unique build"!!!

Repair times...um I mean movement swap times TBD

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BtownB9

Repair times...um I mean movement swap times TBD

Ha! @Ichibunz swap times are determined by how quickly Aliexpress can ship stuff out!

Actually, @Ichibunz, you should tell the story about how they hid the dial of the latest build inside the folds of the cardboard box, like some illicit, Silk Road drug deal or something.

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Always a great read! I totally agree, I rather they change the movement and be done with it!

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You are always a good read.

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I would definitely watch a series of you getting kicked out of watch boutiques lmao. And personally, I'd rather have a new movement dropped in. If they messed up one thing in the movement, who knows if they messed up something else that will break in another month's time 🤷🏼‍♂️

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Mr.Dee.Bater

Yes!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldoh71uNZmk

By the way, in that same upcoming post about the @Ichibunz one-of-a-kind build, I have a prominent quote from the very wise @KristianG about Seiko prices and nostalgia for the days when "Seiko provided good value."

I look forward to this upcoming post, mostly because I can't think of a single wise thing I've ever said or written! 😂

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Great post! Was a a fun read all the way through. Last time I brought my Tudor bb36 to my local watchmaker for service I had it back within 2 days. It is actually possible to do an entire 5 year service and have the watch back quickly even if it's all done by hand.

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Hey bro, is it too late for me to choose the blue pill? I want to cower in a fetal position, thumb in mouth and be transported back to a world where “getting the call” has nothing to do with watches, “limited edition” is exclusive to a Bordeaux and a “panda” is only native to China 🤙😝

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My experience with Seiko was quite good. I had asked for a pair of pins and sleeves for a SARB033 bracelet, they replied by saying they won't sell me two but only five... and they were free. Not sure where all they hate comes from.

Anyway, I don't like changing out movements. I think the primary reason why service takes so long is that manual labour, especially semi-skilled one, is going away. The quality is going down while prices and wait times are going up, both as a result of declining supply. Everybody and their dog goes to uni these days to become a consultant of some kind or work in AI-assisted whatever (no offence, I am guilty of that myself 😉) and those who don't, they want to be influencers. I can see how swapping out movements seems like natural evolution but I think it's just admitting defeat by fighting the symptoms, not the cause of the issue... taking apart a movement wouldn't really be an issue if there were enough people who knew how to do that properly.

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Great post really enjoyed reading it

While there is some ring to be said for repairing the original movement I believe this only to be worthwhile if the watch has a history you wish to keep alive and whole. Any new watch under warranty should have the movement swoped it saves time and must cost less to the manufacturer and the customer gets the watch back quickly. Even in the case of something like a grand seiko the new movement will have the same level of hand building as the original. Let all the skilled workers rebuilding mass produced warranty claims move over to servicing older watches.

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Mr.Dee.Bater

100%!

Here's a question for you: Let's say that 20 years from now, your Kuroshio gives out. By that time, would you get it fixed - and GS is willing to just swap in a brand new movement. But, wouldn't you just want its breakage to serve as an excuse to buy the next new bauble at that point?

Yeah, I would likely be focusing on the next new bauble. If there was a market for it in 20 years such that it was worth more than the repair costs, then I’d probably repair it too.

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Mr.Dee.Bater

Ha! Yeah, you're right. I like to think that these are heirlooms that I can pass on to the next generation, but that's probably a total self-delusion!

My wife and I have accumulated so much crap, I can't even imagine our kids trying to sell off our stuff. Instead, I think they're just going to do this...

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As for watches, I mean, other than the odd unicorn, whenever I've looked on eBay, it seems that 99.9% of all vintage watches cost less than a new F91W. I can't imagine that any of my GS will be worth anything 20 or 30 years from now (assuming AI hasn't wiped out all of humanity, or that my liver hasn't failed me before then).

My thoughts exactly too. Each time I look at a vintage watches and it prices. It just hit me that this watches uses to be quite expensive!! Equivalent of 3500 in current time.

https://thehourmarkers.com/history-has-it/an-insight-into-the-rich-history-of-the-grand-seiko/

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AlohaBrah21

Hey bro, is it too late for me to choose the blue pill? I want to cower in a fetal position, thumb in mouth and be transported back to a world where “getting the call” has nothing to do with watches, “limited edition” is exclusive to a Bordeaux and a “panda” is only native to China 🤙😝

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Ha! In that world, I wonder what other hobby we would have picked up to fill the space. Maybe drugs?

As for pandas, I remember when this went viral...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hq0YU3Gqk

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Steveiemc

Great post really enjoyed reading it

While there is some ring to be said for repairing the original movement I believe this only to be worthwhile if the watch has a history you wish to keep alive and whole. Any new watch under warranty should have the movement swoped it saves time and must cost less to the manufacturer and the customer gets the watch back quickly. Even in the case of something like a grand seiko the new movement will have the same level of hand building as the original. Let all the skilled workers rebuilding mass produced warranty claims move over to servicing older watches.

Thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate it!

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First, as a tennis fan, „Ashton Kutcher“ being brand-ambassador kinda killed me.

Second, swapping the movement is, for some, a sin since it’s not „their watch“ that they lovingly cared for in the past four weeks until it broke. So that’s not an option some would like (I couldn’t care).

Third, after my odyssey with Tissot I’m steering clear of „Swiss Made“ and stick to Seiko and Grand Seiko. I know Tissot isn’t a reputable nor a „luxury“ brand, but here as well I couldn’t care.

(Grand) Seiko all the way.

And I’m still off the dreamy impression that the Japanese, in the case of Grand Seiko, at least, are lovingly and tenderly touching and caressing each part of my watch themselves.

So let a man dream, please.

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red.john

First, as a tennis fan, „Ashton Kutcher“ being brand-ambassador kinda killed me.

Second, swapping the movement is, for some, a sin since it’s not „their watch“ that they lovingly cared for in the past four weeks until it broke. So that’s not an option some would like (I couldn’t care).

Third, after my odyssey with Tissot I’m steering clear of „Swiss Made“ and stick to Seiko and Grand Seiko. I know Tissot isn’t a reputable nor a „luxury“ brand, but here as well I couldn’t care.

(Grand) Seiko all the way.

And I’m still off the dreamy impression that the Japanese, in the case of Grand Seiko, at least, are lovingly and tenderly touching and caressing each part of my watch themselves.

So let a man dream, please.

This is AWESOME! I wondered if anyone would catch the whole Ashton Kutcher thing! This comment has now made my day!

And I'm glad that you've come over to the cult of GS. Unfortunately, I suspect that if anything ever does go wrong with your Snowflake, and you send it in for warranty service, GS will keep it in the service center for 4 months at least! They have to trick all of us into thinking how arduous it is for a master craftsman to Zaratsu polish the case back to utter perfection!

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Mr.Dee.Bater

This is AWESOME! I wondered if anyone would catch the whole Ashton Kutcher thing! This comment has now made my day!

And I'm glad that you've come over to the cult of GS. Unfortunately, I suspect that if anything ever does go wrong with your Snowflake, and you send it in for warranty service, GS will keep it in the service center for 4 months at least! They have to trick all of us into thinking how arduous it is for a master craftsman to Zaratsu polish the case back to utter perfection!

3,5 of these months is the world-tour it’ll go on 😅

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Mr.Dee.Bater

This is AWESOME! I wondered if anyone would catch the whole Ashton Kutcher thing! This comment has now made my day!

And I'm glad that you've come over to the cult of GS. Unfortunately, I suspect that if anything ever does go wrong with your Snowflake, and you send it in for warranty service, GS will keep it in the service center for 4 months at least! They have to trick all of us into thinking how arduous it is for a master craftsman to Zaratsu polish the case back to utter perfection!

Was also confused by the Kutcher ref / Federer pic!

Are they both Rolex guys? I know R-Fed is. Forgive me, I’m simple.

I’m think I’m ok with the ruthless economics of repairing a crazy expensive movement and swapping out a 100 buck movement.

Reno - ing is similar , fixing a wall can be pricier than building new in an old house.

Re markup - I’m quite sure a Rolex Datejust or Aqua Terra has that sweet 10 to 20x markup over cost. And thus a movement swap might actually be cheaper, though maybe more wasteful?

One thing that attracted me to Horage was their insane lack of markup, from their build blog:

Making the tourbillon for free is just not possible but with the support of our community and strict cost control we have calculated a 1.38 margin for this project.

In case your eyes were deceiving you let me put that in bold 1.38 Markup net without VAT.

…in a watch that without exaggeration would usually start at around 40.000CHF or beyond from a major watch manufacturer.

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Fieldwalker

Was also confused by the Kutcher ref / Federer pic!

Are they both Rolex guys? I know R-Fed is. Forgive me, I’m simple.

I’m think I’m ok with the ruthless economics of repairing a crazy expensive movement and swapping out a 100 buck movement.

Reno - ing is similar , fixing a wall can be pricier than building new in an old house.

Re markup - I’m quite sure a Rolex Datejust or Aqua Terra has that sweet 10 to 20x markup over cost. And thus a movement swap might actually be cheaper, though maybe more wasteful?

One thing that attracted me to Horage was their insane lack of markup, from their build blog:

Making the tourbillon for free is just not possible but with the support of our community and strict cost control we have calculated a 1.38 margin for this project.

In case your eyes were deceiving you let me put that in bold 1.38 Markup net without VAT.

…in a watch that without exaggeration would usually start at around 40.000CHF or beyond from a major watch manufacturer.

Dude, tell me they don't look the same!!!

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They're both middle-aged northern European dudes.

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Mr.Dee.Bater

Dude, tell me they don't look the same!!!

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They're both middle-aged northern European dudes.

I can’t tell asians apart either, so all equal 🙂👍

OMG did he just say that! OK boomer You’ve been blocked!!!

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Oh - and I forgot to highlight my super favorite part of your post :

…Get out!”  I suspect their violent reaction partially (mostly) had to do with the fact that they were both very good-looking gals, and it must have been a shock and an inconceivable insult for someone with my troll-like visage to dare to question them about QC…  and, well, fair enough!  Beautiful people deserve our worship, and that’s just how the world works!

😂😂😂

You are just too awesome my friend

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