Have we lost all perspective
With my recent visit to London's Bond street, I had the pleasure of treading the floors of arguably some of the finest watch brands we are fortunate to have. Patek, ALS, JLC and Breguet to name but a few.
Getting hands on with some master pieces from these brands my thoughts wonder to us who chase so hard for the sports pieces from the big R and now worryingly Omega with waiting lists.
As we all know the price increases are going skywards. For the same money as sports pieces from Rolex in retail price and worse the resale value, you can have the beautiful crafted pieces from the above or even the likes of D. Dornblueth & son or H Moser.
My Question. Have we lost all perspective on Value in this collecting game? Do people truly believe 15 - 20 Grand on a Rolex Sports piece is true value when you consider the above.
thoughts please.
Deeply down the bottomless watch collecting hole. Love for all types of watches. Looking to share my thoughts and watch purchases with like minded people. my watch interests fall on divers, pilot and...
On my way home on the train,I too walked down Bond Street and popped into a few boutiques ,it's amazing what you can try on ,the most expensive was an all gold VC at £140,000,thing is that's just a week's wage to a football player who probably doesn't know anything about the history or workmanship gone into it ,not classing all football players ignorant,as I'm sure some will be genuine, things are only made if people are prepared to buy them
Concern about "perspective on Value" regarding luxury goods is a moral quandary, not an economic one. Thorstein Veblen has been proven right about the economic trajectory of luxury goods. If your question is not one of "good" or "bad" but rather one of taste, then I don't know what to say, it's taste.
Back when he was interesting, @HotWatchChick69 could give you 3500 words on this. Instead, he sits on a throne of Grand Seiko and watches his dogs destroy his yard.
There's no perspective in this game, it's all about what the heart wants and how far your wallet will stretch to give in to your hearts desire (well mostly).
In my opinion, in order to properly discuss, I believe you should define what you consider "value" within this context since depending on your operational definition, our responses and opinions can run the gamut and therefore likely go off the rails. Just my 2 cents.
Hell no!!! I’d never waste my money on another Rolex. There are so many more better watches out there. Tis true though, many have lost their way down the rabbit hole. Poor sods…☘🥃
In my opinion, in order to properly discuss, I believe you should define what you consider "value" within this context since depending on your operational definition, our responses and opinions can run the gamut and therefore likely go off the rails. Just my 2 cents.
Ok. in my mind, value of what you get for your coin. So whilst the likes of Rolex (as they tend to be the brand that is compared to as the stop gap) charge now 9 grand roughly for submariner, they are technically meant to be a tool watch. I like Rolex. I had 2, selling the Sub to put money in other pieces.
yet for the same money you can potentially walk away with a hand finished beauty which some would argue say are true watch make makers. I realise beauty is in the eye of the beholder but i surely cant be the one thinking this?
I am a fan of specific Rolex models at MSRP. I am also a huge fan of other brands including the ones you mentioned. I am lucky to have a good AD, but if not for that if given the choice of waiting for a watch on a "list" vs. going to a smaller higher horology maker, I will go to Durnbluth, but they are really two separate watches. Nevermind what happens to value once you acquire them, if one cares about such things.
Not one for telling people what to spend their money on, whilst I agree that £10-15k could be spent on a better, more interesting watch(es), the allure of a Rolex is hard to ignore for the majority. I don’t think there is anything we can do about it, Rolex is King, they do have a crown as their logo after all…
Been thinking about this some recently.
Value matters but it's not the only criteria. Sometimes you just want the hot/trendy/status symbol item.
We all want to be unique, but also accepted by society. It's kind of a weird dichotomy in human nature.
If you haven't seen him, Bill at WatchArtSci recently uploaded a video about creating a custom watch that breaks down all the costs. That puts perspective on how the big brands MSRP is 10x of production costs. So when you buy a Rolex, Omega, AP, Patek, etc., you're paying more for the brand name and their marketing spend. To an extent, there is value in that. It will be about how much you value a luxury watch's 'status symbol-ness' vs. the value of the physical watch. For me, indies are where the watch market is going in the next decade and where the cool stuff is.
https://youtu.be/Aq9ckaTx_Vs
Ok. in my mind, value of what you get for your coin. So whilst the likes of Rolex (as they tend to be the brand that is compared to as the stop gap) charge now 9 grand roughly for submariner, they are technically meant to be a tool watch. I like Rolex. I had 2, selling the Sub to put money in other pieces.
yet for the same money you can potentially walk away with a hand finished beauty which some would argue say are true watch make makers. I realise beauty is in the eye of the beholder but i surely cant be the one thinking this?
In that case, I largely agree with your assessment and conclusion. But people in general are herd creatures, so would go for what they "know" or what they've heard and think they know. I always think back to the 1990s to early 2000s Honda NSX. Fantastic car that was, arguably, much better value than Porsche and Ferrari. But it's a Honda, and no one outside of enthusiasts (and the Japanese) knew or cared about it, so it was always at an inexplicably lower price.
I've generally no issues with how things are priced since that is more or less what the market will allow. I mean, I'd sure love prices to be lower or whatnot, but as long as there are buyers at various price points then it is what it is.
Concern about "perspective on Value" regarding luxury goods is a moral quandary, not an economic one. Thorstein Veblen has been proven right about the economic trajectory of luxury goods. If your question is not one of "good" or "bad" but rather one of taste, then I don't know what to say, it's taste.
Back when he was interesting, @HotWatchChick69 could give you 3500 words on this. Instead, he sits on a throne of Grand Seiko and watches his dogs destroy his yard.
Nah, man, I got sucked into the 9-5 grind! For 2 years, I lived a glorious life as this dude...
Unfortunately, they found me in the basement, and have put me to work now! Not only do I have to, you know, work, I also have been commuting between San Diego and the Bay Area! The gall of those bastards! Requiring me to actually... do work for my salary???
There is only one thing for it!
Workers of the world, unite and take over!!!
You know, it just occurred to me how apt the above gif is... he wore a Rolex!
And, given all the rampant crime and muggings for Rolexes, he really should have done a better job being careful. This is what happens when you're not aware of your surroundings and wearing a luxury timepiece!
https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/just-because/rolex-watches-che-guevara.html
It really depends on how much one is into watches. There are people who say they're into watches - and maybe they truly feel that - but they couldn't name half a dozen brands outside of the big names.
This is not a judgement, but simply to note that someone like that is hardly going to perceive the value in a less well known watch brand, even if bang-for-buck, it wipes the floor with everything else.
If you haven't seen him, Bill at WatchArtSci recently uploaded a video about creating a custom watch that breaks down all the costs. That puts perspective on how the big brands MSRP is 10x of production costs. So when you buy a Rolex, Omega, AP, Patek, etc., you're paying more for the brand name and their marketing spend. To an extent, there is value in that. It will be about how much you value a luxury watch's 'status symbol-ness' vs. the value of the physical watch. For me, indies are where the watch market is going in the next decade and where the cool stuff is.
https://youtu.be/Aq9ckaTx_Vs
A luxury item that is priced at cost+ isn't really a luxury, it's a commodity. There are many strategies to use for setting the prices on goods and commodities and I never heard yet of any luxury being sold to the masses.
Rolex is recognizable by everyone so you’re paying a premium for brand name (I guess similar case with pretty much any luxury good: shoes, handbags, glasses, etc.)
Other contributing factors from my perspective are media hype and “watches as investment” type of thing. Whenever someone talks of investing in watches - mostly they think of Rolex
I always view the value equation like “This 10k watch would cost you £3 a day if you wore it nearly every day for 10 years. Is it worth that to you?”.. and often times the answer is yes. The little smile every time you check the time. The feeling of having one thing about you that is smart and classy - even if you are having a lacklustre day.
Lots of issues with that equation - positive and negative. We buy more than one watch. Servicing and insurance costs. Etc. But also - it may be the watch is still worth a good chunk of what we paid at the end.
As I have moved through watches it’s probably cost me more wearing “value” brands because of the poor residuals.
I always view the value equation like “This 10k watch would cost you £3 a day if you wore it nearly every day for 10 years. Is it worth that to you?”.. and often times the answer is yes. The little smile every time you check the time. The feeling of having one thing about you that is smart and classy - even if you are having a lacklustre day.
Lots of issues with that equation - positive and negative. We buy more than one watch. Servicing and insurance costs. Etc. But also - it may be the watch is still worth a good chunk of what we paid at the end.
As I have moved through watches it’s probably cost me more wearing “value” brands because of the poor residuals.
Interesting point. So by that calculation, 1k watch would cost me £0.30 per day for next 10 years. For the same product. Well,that's sounds like I'm saving. What do I do with the rest 9k? Buy something nice,let's say Omega or used AP? 😂
Been thinking about this some recently.
Value matters but it's not the only criteria. Sometimes you just want the hot/trendy/status symbol item.
We all want to be unique, but also accepted by society. It's kind of a weird dichotomy in human nature.
To be outside of the herd yet still be allowed to mingle with the herd....
Far too deep for my little brain. I'm just going to keep looking at the shiny things!
My opinion is that none of this is worth it, people just artificially created such a high price for mechanical watches. The reason why it is so is simple, brands like Rolex or any other brands mentioned above are forced to have a high price so that the owners of these brands can live in luxury, they cannot compare with the mass production of other brands because they would never be able to compete with them on price. For example, if Rolex or any above mentioned brand wanted to mass-produce watches, they would have to switch to machine production, lay off experienced master watchmakers, and would have to produce an adequate number of watches to fill the market. But since it is a Swiss company, it would have to make more profit from one piece sold than, say, a manufacturer in China, where the need for profit is lower for living in luxury. Watches have value only among collectors, they mean more to us than just reading the time from them. But paying 10k or 20k for a watch does not mean that they have that value, only maybe if they were made of gold or other precious metals or jewelry, but paying that much money for a piece of processed metal does not have adequate value anywhere in the world nowadays. Of course, it is different say for instance sixty years ago, people were happy to be able to pay three or four monthly payments for quality rolexes because they did not have as easy access to time as we have today and they needed a reliable source of time, so it was worth it. It should also be emphasized that even though behind the high price there is a real piece of art in the given models so those watches may have a value in combination of mechanical precision and art but it just doesn't make sense to me to pay 20k so imprudently for something that is no longer something special these days. Of course I don't blame those who do pay its everyone's personal preference or choice. Don'tget me wrong, the datejust or the submariner are beautiful watches, but what do you think is the uniqueness of these watches when they are not similar but identical and can be seen everywhere. And when someone tells me that it's a symbol of a society status then where is that society heading if it can't distinguish between uniqueness and art and is explicitly only guided by the brand these days? I understand that half a century ago, the brand was a guarantee of quality because people did not have the opportunity to verify information like we have today, but in the 21st century, not being able to distinguish between quality and value is a bit superficial.
Very well and eloquently put .
I had a thought about invested objects and the energy and time put into a high end watch . The materials the technology, the craftsmanship and love . Adding up over 1000 hours in an ALS or FP Journe , even a gem studded precious metal Rolex ! There is a little bit of pride in owning all those craftsman’s time investment. That’s a sort of magic “ think” Crown and Sceptre type energy .
Talking about "value" for something that's so ridiculously expensive for what it is makes no sense whatsoever to me. Most ultra expensive watches are mechanical and thus functionally inferior to cheapo quartz watches.
I don't see how there's value for that money in any of that. The exception is if the watch is built from expensive materials that make the cost that high, but there's usually a lot of extra cost beyond that in such watches, yet again rendering the value thing irrelevant.
Even at 100-200€, talking about value seems too much. You can get something more functional for less, so you are clearly not paying for value there.
At the end of the day, I don't really understand the need to try to rationalize the cost of watches. Nothing about the watch itself is worth that much money. The reason why we buy watches is because we like them and want to have them, not because there's value for the money.
There's no perspective in this game, it's all about what the heart wants and how far your wallet will stretch to give in to your hearts desire (well mostly).
Hear hear!
I think luxury has always been intended to be limited and unattainable. With the democratization of technology such as smartphones and social media something else needs to become the replacement. Back in my grandparents day a television was considered a luxury, in my parents day, travel was a luxury. Today Televisions are relatively cheap and travel has become much easier . Of course I am speaking from a North American perspective.
Automatic watches are an unnecessary extravagance that has been functionally replaced with other technologies so they serve as a pure luxury and stays symbol. In that case Rolex and Omega could raise the price 10 times and they would still be appropriately priced. They are worthless and as a a result they can cost whatever the seller wishes to charge.
Value isn‘t really in question once you reach that price point. No doubt, these high horology pieces are way more watch but they may well have no „value“ to someone who doesn‘t like the look or the care they require. I wear my Explorer way differently than my Breguet for example and you can‘t really compare the two…
The problem with the luxury market, really any luxury market beyond watches, is that once you see the dynamics, it's almost impossible to unsee it. I had that moment in a wine blending class in Sonoma, which was fun enough in itself. Sitting there with a couple of colleagues, Dustin Hoffman on the other side of the room. But then the question popped into my mind: "What am I doing here, and for what reason?"
Call it a reverse rabbit hole, but I ended up moving to rural Ohio where things are fairly down to earth. I haven't felt privileged in a while, which is probably a good thing. Well, at least until the latest tax plan, which labeled me rich. You can't quite escape it completely, I suppose.
But yes, it is easy to lose perspective.
On my way home on the train,I too walked down Bond Street and popped into a few boutiques ,it's amazing what you can try on ,the most expensive was an all gold VC at £140,000,thing is that's just a week's wage to a football player who probably doesn't know anything about the history or workmanship gone into it ,not classing all football players ignorant,as I'm sure some will be genuine, things are only made if people are prepared to buy them
Truth is, most people with vast amounts of wealth don't fully appreciate or understand it.
Same goes with the high end shit they buy. 'value' exits the conversation a long time ago
After a certain price point, value is no longer a relevant factor when it comes to buying a higher end watch. It's then a statement of 'I can afford this and you can't'.
Same applies to cars, luxury handbags, homes, and various other Veblen goods
Luxury is whatever you do not need or that will not improve your situation. That extends to every item price point. Luxury watches come at many price points to satisfy frivolity at every level. Material lust drives it and everyone is guilty of it from time to time.
I'm late to the party, but my two cents. Unfortunately, COVID, social media, crypto, yolo stocks and other get rich quick schemes got more people into watches as a status symbol of their newfound wealth or boredom of nothing to do during COVID. Social media allows people to flex without real appreciation of watches. Don't get me wrong, there were always the watch flexers, but the interwebs turbocharges everything. So, unfortunately prices went a bit nuts.
Value is subjective and depends on how much dough you have to blow. Do I LOVE the dufourgraph? F'n hell yeah. Do I love it at $200k or whatever crazy number it's at? No f'n way.
On the other hand, I was trying to convince myself to get the white dial gen 1 datograph that is $30k cheaper than the gen 2 because "it's a good deal" (though I love the Roman numerals), I realized I prefer the black dial rose gold even though it's not gen 1. So that decision was worth $30k to me. Luckily, I'm at a stage in my life when I can make that decision. I would've been scared shitless way back when (and toi poor anyway).
Ramble over, but value for money is all about your tastes, how they differ to the "market", and your capacity and ability to spend the dough.
Great point we'll made!