“Fashion” VS “Fashion-House” Watches - Is there no difference?
There should be a distinct difference between a “fashion watch” and a “fashion-house” watch.
Arguably, the most taboo term in the watch community today is “fashion watch.” The community is full of rants, raves and rages about fashion watches, but where the line between contempt and respect for a fashion brand in the realm of watchmaking is both thin and incredibly murky.
Michal Kolwas of Waha Watches defines a “fashion” watch as follows:
The most prominent example of this, by definition, is Cartier. They are very well-known for their beautiful and complex jewellry, but are also incredibly respected in the world of haute horologie. However, something seems to stop them from getting flak from a majority of the community for “not being a watchmaker.” Why is that?
Sure, Cartier has the heritage and the perceived “brand value” that comes with it, but the other fashion houses are quickly gaining ground. Montblanc, Hermès, Chanel and Louis Vuitton have ALL won awards at the GPHG, but they are still regularly shunned, as they are often lumped into the “fashion” category.
I argue that there should be a distinct difference with “fashion” and “fashion-house” watches, especially getting into more of the high end offerings. “Fashion” watches should be defined as relatively cheap, mass produced accessories meant to promote a fashion company in a different medium, whilst “fashion-house” denotes that the company puts a distinct amount of care into their watches, either by design or by mechanics, despite not being primarily known for their horological prowess.
I also propose that “fashion” watches are promoted to “fashion-house” when the company behind them starts making waves in the horology world (for good reasons). For example, Versace and Calvin Klein would still firmly plant themselves in “fashion,” whilst Bvlgari is an established “fashion-house” watch brand, with brands like Gucci somewhere in-between.
I thought I’d pass this over to the WatchCrunch community to see what they think.
Do you think there should be a more definitive separation between “fashion” and “fashion-house” watches? What “fashion-house” watches are criminally underrated, and what “fashion” watch brands have the potential to progress further into the world of high-end watchmaking?
I am not Gerald Genta. I like to draw watch ideas. They usually suck. #defsnotgenta for more.
"Fashion watch" is just a pejorative that we throw at things we don't like, or think that we shouldn't like. There is no reason to slice it into thinner and thinner segments. It is all gate-keeping.
Cartier made watches before Rolex. Omega sells sunglasses. These are businesses that will separate us from our money any way that they can.
It is fashion all the way down.
I think fashion house brands as you call them tend to get recognized when they make decent watches without needing a new classification. You mentioned Cartier and Bulgari 2 high end fashion brands that are recognized by most for making exceptional watches. At the other end of the scale Fossil are known for making good quality watches by most enthusiasts.
I’m just not sure if giving the “good” fashion house brands another label would hurt or hinder them. Why not just say watches, some are of good quality and some are cheaply made cash grabs. I just worry that this could add a layer of complexity to watches and also push some away from a brand. If you were to say Fossil are a good fashion house brand, instead of simply saying Fossil watches are good you’re immediately othering Fossil and it could make people pause before buying one. Also why do we give some fashion brands a hard time? Casio are beloved in the watch community and we don’t say they’re a good technology house brand, we say Casio make great watches.
Sorry about the ramble, just not sure creating more labels is helpful to the brands you’re labeling.
In my view any watch over, say, $100 is a fashion accessory. So the whole pejorative term "fashion watch" is a bit baffling to me. Maybe it's due to an unwillingness to admit liking something which is essentially jewelry as that's not traditionally manly in western cultures and most watch collectors seem to be men.
I also find it odd that lots of people instinctively recognise that the price of a branded, say, polo shirt compared to an unbranded one is mostly down to the brand, not any great difference in quality. Yet this is often strongly resisted when it comes to watches, with watch companies and enthusiasts going to great lengths to justify price differences on the basis of features or better finishing.
This is odd given that mechanical watches are a mature, even stagnant, technology with very little significant innovation and whose costs of production are dropping in any case because of the ubiquity of e.g. CNC machinery, CAD and robots for assembly. I also reckon that like an iPhone, the bill of materials and labour makes up a pretty small proportion of a watch's price.
I reckon it's OK to like a brand just because of the brand image and it should be acceptable to say this rather than having to always justify it on the basis of quality or design or value for money or features.
All I will say is whoever made that skull/snake thingy DEF read to much WH40K.....
Also THE EMPEROR PROTECTS!
"Fashion watch" is just a pejorative that we throw at things we don't like, or think that we shouldn't like. There is no reason to slice it into thinner and thinner segments. It is all gate-keeping.
Cartier made watches before Rolex. Omega sells sunglasses. These are businesses that will separate us from our money any way that they can.
It is fashion all the way down.
Could you IMAGINE how much money Oakley or Wiley X would rake in off COD players if they made an "operator" watch.....lol.
Maybe I should have that as my retirement plan? 🤔
As @Matt84 I think there is a distinct difference in a number of ways, but we do not need more labels. I think most people understand that when something is labeled as a fashion watch, it is usually from a brand that is strictly a fashion label but has no input on design or any horological chops.
High-end jewelers always wanted in the watch game so they have something other than cufflinks to sell men's shoppers. Sorry to generalize, but historically that is how they are treated. Harry Winston, Cartier, Tiffany, etc. all dabble in that world and make some great watches. Anyone referring to those brands as fashion brands doesn't know better and is likely trolling.
When I hear fashion, my mind immediately goes to Gucci, DKNY, Hilfiger, etc. All fashion-based brands that sell branding rights to the highest bidder. They do the same with glasses. Prada glasses? Nope, Luxottica. The same Luxottica that sells 2 for $100 glasses at Pearl, but they seem to get a pass in that world because most folks do not know better. Those fashion watches, like fashion glasses, are just a label slapped on an inexpensive product because people want to be associated with that brand, even though outside of the label, it has zero to do with the brand. I am not dumping on that approach, selling branding rights lets them focus on what they do best, but it is a stark difference between the approaches.
All I will say is whoever made that skull/snake thingy DEF read to much WH40K.....
Also THE EMPEROR PROTECTS!
Unsurprisingly, LV.
Let’s not forget that Cartier is the grandfather of the wristwatch as we know it. https://blog.crownandcaliber.com/cartier-watches-a-brand-history/amp/
Maybe there should be a clear distinction between a fashion house watch and a fashion watch. IMO, the difference is that Cartier doesn't follow fashion - it creates and defines it.
All I will say is whoever made that skull/snake thingy DEF read to much WH40K.....
Also THE EMPEROR PROTECTS!
Yes, he does.
https://youtu.be/6bgi5STRe8E
The term fashion watch is also used for watch brands like DW where all the perceived value is marketing-generated. Svarovski does not get nearly as much flak, because they are making bling and are in the business of making bling. Our distaste is based on the proverb that a fool and his money are quickly separated, and that we are, ultimately, those fools. So we try to isolate ourselves from the most blatant foolishness.
"Fashion watch" is just a pejorative that we throw at things we don't like, or think that we shouldn't like. There is no reason to slice it into thinner and thinner segments. It is all gate-keeping.
Cartier made watches before Rolex. Omega sells sunglasses. These are businesses that will separate us from our money any way that they can.
It is fashion all the way down.
I’ve take “fashion watch” to mean cheap watch being sold for more money because it’s got the name of a designer on it. Sometimes there are extra sundials and gewgaws that serve no purpose other than to look like a complicated watch.
In the case of Cartier, the other thing they do is make jewelry which ties in nicely with making pretty watches. I would argue the materials they use aren’t cheap. The do nice finishing and use quality movements. Yes, like with all watches, some of the price is just for the name, but they make attractive, historical watches with quality materials. I doubt Michael Kors can say the same.
Fashion watch for me is smth really cheap and sold via ads or in department stores (Tommy, Armani, Primarks, Adidas,etc.) - normally under 100$ and bought impulsively. They don’t do anything interesting either. Cartier and Chopard specialize in watches and jewelry which historically was quite connected. Gucci, Chanel and others are mostly about clothing, so disconnect might come from this point. But still Hermes, Chanel, Gucci and Bvlgari make some really cool watches. Montblanc I consider to be on somewhat similar level to Cartier. I really like their Iced Sea divers with its astonishing dials.
Cartier = Jewellery and trinkets, Jacob & Co = Jewellery, Chopard = Jewellery. All 3 companies utilise highly skilled artisans in the creation of their pieces, whether it is a necklace or a watch.
D&G, Fossil, DKNY etc = Off the peg high street clothing retailers. Offer mass produced things at 2/3 above their true value because of branding and nothing else.
It all depends their commitment to the craft or if they’re just licensing their brand to factories and taking a royalty.
Bvlgari and Cartier aren’t ‘fashion’ houses.
Dior and Ralph Lauren are but they are developing the timepieces themselves.
Then where does Hermès lie? Not hating, just curious what you’re thinking.
Hermès has been rebranding rolex, jlc watches under its name in the fifties. Guess it was on par with the definition of fashion watches, back then.
Nowadays, they are truly watchmakers to my eyes. They have history, opening their watch division in 1978 : that is older than Nomos.
Second, they have made iconic models, as the Cape Cod, l'Arceau. But also many interesting & poetic complications. "Le temps suspendu" being one of many example.
Third, they are working on true mechanical movements. They own 25% of Vaucher Manufacture Fleurier. Their Slim has the same micro-rotor also found in Parmegiani Fleurier (albeit the finishing)
At last, I'd say they have nowadays recognition, being awarded by several gphg awards.
Tl,dr : Hermès is no longer only a fashion brand but also is a watchmaker
Heure H watch, Small model, 25 mm | Hermès Netherlands (hermes.com)
Lets use the above watch as an example. You can find fairly comparable watches in terms of materials used and aesthetics for around €250. This one is priced at €2550,00. Is it worth the mark up? For some, absolutely. But in terms of its true value, I don't believe so.
You can argue the same about most highly expensive watches that are liked by the community as well.
Not saying that watch is good, but value is largely irrelevant at price points like that as typically an enthusiast isn't buying a watch for its material qualities and in terms of pure materials used, typical watches at multi-thousand euro price points still use stainless steel, sapphire, etc just as 200-300€ watches do. Design is entirely subjective as well and less expensive price points have great looking watches.
Usually buying an expensive watch is about liking the design, wanting the brand name on the dial or the watch being a recreation of something that has historical or other kind of significance to the buyer. Or some other cool factor to the watch.
In the case of the watch you are looking at, would you say that it's comparable to 250€ watches if it had Rolex or Omega on the dial? I wouldn't necessarily do so as there's far more to things than the materials that are on the specs and it's not like we buy watches for the physical qualities anyway.
Where do WC people see Leica watches in this ? Just curious , I personally think they are well made but not appealing and overpriced.
Would we all agree on one point fashion brand watch = cheap quartz movement with blingy oversized case and bling shiny and mismatched colours and styling elements?? Thus fashion watch ?
Maybe there should be a clear distinction between a fashion house watch and a fashion watch. IMO, the difference is that Cartier doesn't follow fashion - it creates and defines it.
Excellent point
You can argue the same about most highly expensive watches that are liked by the community as well.
Not saying that watch is good, but value is largely irrelevant at price points like that as typically an enthusiast isn't buying a watch for its material qualities and in terms of pure materials used, typical watches at multi-thousand euro price points still use stainless steel, sapphire, etc just as 200-300€ watches do. Design is entirely subjective as well and less expensive price points have great looking watches.
Usually buying an expensive watch is about liking the design, wanting the brand name on the dial or the watch being a recreation of something that has historical or other kind of significance to the buyer. Or some other cool factor to the watch.
In the case of the watch you are looking at, would you say that it's comparable to 250€ watches if it had Rolex or Omega on the dial? I wouldn't necessarily do so as there's far more to things than the materials that are on the specs and it's not like we buy watches for the physical qualities anyway.
To answer your question, take a look at the watches i have shared in WRUW, Not one of them have cost me above €150. I definitely do not believe that a brand name alone adds any real value to anything. Especially in the mass produced market.
Sometimes you match your watch to the outfit, sometimes the outfit to the watch, and sometimes people like the label to be the same on everything. The problem is some of the fashion watches are a lot of money for not a lot of quality. I would go as far as to say that matching your Armani watch to your Armani suit, might lower the tone of the suit.
Though who doesn’t want a Burberry dial to match their ‘Mac ey?
Hermès has been rebranding rolex, jlc watches under its name in the fifties. Guess it was on par with the definition of fashion watches, back then.
Nowadays, they are truly watchmakers to my eyes. They have history, opening their watch division in 1978 : that is older than Nomos.
Second, they have made iconic models, as the Cape Cod, l'Arceau. But also many interesting & poetic complications. "Le temps suspendu" being one of many example.
Third, they are working on true mechanical movements. They own 25% of Vaucher Manufacture Fleurier. Their Slim has the same micro-rotor also found in Parmegiani Fleurier (albeit the finishing)
At last, I'd say they have nowadays recognition, being awarded by several gphg awards.
Tl,dr : Hermès is no longer only a fashion brand but also is a watchmaker
Nicely said . The h08 is a killer
If the company buys a division that specializes in watches and makes movements , they are a watch company . It’s only a matter of time before they win the gp.
In the world of boring and usual models these brands bring excitement in terms of aesthetic and sometime even progress . E.g. bulgari beating record after record for 6 years
Yes, he does.
https://youtu.be/6bgi5STRe8E
Love it! Here's hoping the amazing Henry Cavill and other fans don't get ousted by Amazon and do for the grim darkness what was done for The Witcher.
Sorry to OP for hijacking this thread almost done.....😂
Also
Flashlight < Bolter < Power Armor < Guardsman Standard Issue Ballz o'steel
PS to stay on topic-ish only a Commissar would be able to wear any of these watches....because they have the biggest hat... 😂
"Fashion Watch" is any brand/microbrand outsourcing to china or any low cost manufacturer and pricing the watch 10-100x over cost. "Fashion house" watch may be doing it in house using their own artisans blood and sweat (whether aided by machines or not)
Thinking further, I would suggest ‘Boutique’ as an alternative to ‘fashion house’ as Armani, Boss, et al, are all fashion houses.
For me, if it is Fossil making the watches (Armani, Tommy Hilfiger, and others) they are fashion watches. Hermes and the others actually make watches and invest millions in their watches and associated elements, so I would not even use fashion houses, just a watch company that diversifies from high end clothing and accessories 😀
I believe fashion watches will be up and coming