Why I doubt I'll ever "learn to love knockoffs"

I have a similar feeling about ‘knock-offs’. I do not fault anyone for getting them at all, I’ve even flirted with a few myself, but it just never feels right to me.. maybe I should just pull the trigger on one and I’d be convinced

I think it's awesome you love and enjoy watches. Definitely you should only get what makes you feel great when you wear it!

I wouldn't say I'm an advocate for copies and homages, I just think they have their place. My addiction runs deep so I don't discriminate haha.

Whatever floats your boat. If everyone hated knockoffs there would be only about 10-15 options for watches. Everything came from something.

Disagree 100%. Your error is you are confusing being influenced by a design to develop your own and knocking it off.

Agree, they have there place - other people's collections.

If others get something out of them all power to them, personally I dont see the point.

Watches are about emotion, and somebody copying a watch off somebody else saps the emotion out of that watch.

Unless the copy was done a long time ago, then we may be able to excuse it. But until San Martin has been making watches for at least 80 years, they don’t get a pass.

I'm not into knock off or fakes but people love em'. I don't personally like every new watch I see on WC. I do know that feeling when you buy a watch you want. I get excited for someone with a new copy, knockoff, fake etc. They have that new watch high!

Well said @pete.mcconvill.watches. I will not knock someone that likes copies of watches. That’s their thing, it’s just not my thing. I don’t understand it on a logical or emotional level. In both cases, they are selling the watch and themselves short in my estimation. Makes no sense to me.

If someone buys a knock off and is happy, I’m happy for them. If they try to convince me that a clomage is just as good as an original, I feel obliged to espouse my opinion as to why it is not.

I get where youre coming from, and good for you! I personally refuse the idea of spending thousands of dodos on basically useless but nice looking items, just because they are more accurate by a few seconds, or some guy did something somewhere a long time ago and that was kinda cool and stuff.

Storyes and heritage are interesting for me, but mean no value, because I dont feel personally connected to any. Not my or my peoples/relatives heritage, so why should I value it so high?

Watches are products, manufactured by the millions, as cheaply as possible, and heavily marketed so that people buy them. Imo that is true for Pagani and true for Rolex. They just play on different levels.

I like the look of the Rolex explorer 1, I find the history of the brand interesting, so I have a pagani explorer because it looks just as cool and reminds me of said story.🤷‍♂️

It is also a very capable watch with all its features, and cost me used as much as an entry casio. I look for value and attractiveness with my purchases, not cool storyes.😃

As you said, the point is to spend your money towards something that brings you joy, because you've earned it.

Homage watches don't bring you joy, and that's all right. They do bring joy to a ton of enthusiasts for a variety of reasons. I find most watches posted on WC daily ugly, but I don't knock them down because I know someone is happy about them. At the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's great to have all sides of the debate so we don't just become an echo chamber of the same opinions! 🍻

Interestingly, I think your reasons for only wanting the originals are precisely the reasons I am happy with homages!

Example.... This....

Will still give me all of this ...

joy, reflection, art, representation, story, history, concepts, belonging, mutual connections, conversations, plans, ideals, thoughts and so much more

I will still be reminded of when I'd watch Sean Connery as a kid on our tiny TV screen at home. I'll remember watching those films with the family and as soon as the adverts were on everyone would make a made dash to do what they needed to do in the 5 minutes before the film restarted. Mum would go make a tea. Dad would get snacks. Me and my brothers would fight to get to the toilet first. There was only 1 loo in our council house, so if two people wanted it then the second one on was definitely going to miss the film when it restarted... as a result the first one on would take their sweet time. We were a horrible family 😂.

I'll still tell the story that Timothy Dalton grew up in the same village I did!

I'll still feel like to can RP James Bond when I'm home alone.

I'll still feel as connected to the watch community with this on my wrist as an Omega, because the community know that no amount of Omega's will make me any less of a sad, nerdy, weirdo 😂

The Pagani will still remind me of all the cool Bond is, and I don't need to pay £1000's more for the Omega logo to do that.

BUT... If I wanted to have the....

joy, reflection, art, representation, story, history, concepts, belonging, mutual connections, conversations, plans, ideals, thoughts and so much more

....associated specifically with a watch brand... Rolex, Cartier etc... then I agree... I think I would need the real deal for that... but luckily for me the £50 options do the job for me for all the other stuff, and I'm mostly here for the other stuff ❤

I'm not a fan of knock offs at all myself- for me when I strap on my watch it's far more than just the looks or functions, I'm strapping on a direct connection to history, sharing in the great achievements of my chosen brand.

I feel a great sense of pride wearing a watch I've worked hard for, I've gone without other stuff to save for my pride & joy - so when I wear it, it's not just a watch, it encapsulates all that graft, that history, that connection.

A knock off could be an exact copy, down to the tiniest detail, but I wouldn't get those feelings, and it's those feelings that cement the hobby in our short lives.

"Remember,kids, just say no" 🤣

I've been fortunate to have owned Rolex, omega, longines, blah blah blah. They're stunning pieces, that I truly felt humbled to own. But, they've had to be sold, due to poor health and a very reduced income, that I have little control over. I let them go one by one, through necessity, each being a torturous process. But such is life eh. Today, I have a humble collection of watches, the first post diagnosis watch purchased, I have a terrible love hate relationship with, it's a stark reminder of what was, but also a emblem of a new start. Watch crunch had been a helpful tool, having such a broad range of collections, it's made things feel normal. But it's also feeding that 'want/need', seeing some of the brand I used to own, and some I aspired to collect.

Lately I've been looking at Pagani Designs, particularly the 'no time to die' knockoff, because I sure adore the original omega (not because of the bond connection), the design, colour, titanium, lume, patina etc etc. The original will never be in reach, but what stops me going ahead and purchasing the PD, is purely the fact that it's just that, a knockoff. I don't think it'll satisfy my thirst for the omega and it'll sit in the watch box, more so as a grim reminder.😳. So my future purchases will be originals, but affordable brands, that are their own designs in their own right.

Tempting though.

In any enthusiast community there will be homages/knock-off/whatever you want to call them.

Look at the firearms community. Every single major manufacturer makes an homage to the striker fired, polymer framed Glock. Every single one. Why? Because it's an icon, does it's job well, and loads of people want one. Funny enough Glock wasn't the first. HK technically did it first with the VP70, but Glock had better marketing and made sure their stuff got used by newsworthy professionals (and Hollywood cool guys). Sound like anyone we all know....ends with an X....😂

There are some that make higher end, improved on models, Shadow Systems. There are some that make about as bare bones as you can make, Hi-Point/Kel-tec. At the end of the day, they function the same.

There are enthusiasts at each price point. Love it or hate it, it's a fact.

The bright side is it allows EVERYONE to join. The darker side is it definitely makes haters on both ends of the spectrum. The I would never, how could you, you should die, crowd. And the how dare you waste money like that, you should die, crowd.

Maybe just don’t call them knock offs then? Just a thought.

This sparked quite the debate! And since by now everyone and his grandmother has commented, I feel sort of obliged to chip in as well.

(apparently this is a recurring WC ritual one just has to partake in)

My take is that if you are really into watches, you’re not only interested in a Lange Tourbograph, but also in the Pagani and Seestern end of the spectrum. Which iconic models do they copy? How close can they get to the original’s quality? Which corners do they cut? How do they solve the problem of producing an acceptable look-alike for a fraction of the cost? Interesting stuff imo. Which also partially explains btw why I like the < 1k segment and the > 10k segment - but not so much the 1-10k part of the market. 

Thanks (sort of) to @Mr.Dee.Bater I am just an inch away from ordering a Pagani - just to see what the quality/wearability really is and how it holds up against another watch in the box exactly 100 times more expensive.

On a tangent (and be warned: the text above is notionally rational - what follows is not):

Since I was a kid, it has been imprinted on me that Rolex is a watch for disreputable people. Shady car dealers, tax evading contractors, boxing promotors on the take - you get the (horribly stereotyped and false) idea. Even now that I am much older and (should) know better, I still do not want to be seen with a Rolex. So a Pagani homage to the Submariner (a model I do quite like) is a real gift! I can wear a watch I like (hopefully) - but not have the name-that-shall-not-be-seen on the dial. I think I saw a post somewhere way up calling for psychiatric help for this watch collecting community - guess I need some as well :-)

This is precisely why I stopped panting after the 'Moonwatch'. There are only a few watches that actually visited the Moon. The rest are good solid watches. But your watch (mine) is not a 'moonwatch' haha. I only need a visual cue to remember that tremendous human achievement. Some people get it from images or a documentary. I can get it from a similar watch design. It only serves as a reminder.

It's well known that the founder of Genault got his start making super clone Rolex. The irony of early reviews of his watches kept noting that it felt 'just like a Rolex' lol.

Ha! I'm so glad I could influence you!!!

I'll say this again, my Pagani Design is a fantastic watch for $100. My Seestern, at $189, is a FANTASTIC WATCH PERIOD. $89 more got me something that I'm dying to put on my wrist again and again. I rotate my watches 1 per day, and I'm dying to get that Seestern back on wrist 14 days from now!

I have, by now, seen a lot of Rolexes. (I was hanging about Burlington Arcade today. I have now seen a quantum shit-ton of Rolexes) And I kinda like a couple. There are great people on here that have some that look cool.

But I know exactly what you mean about that other side of them.

That’s why, if tomorrow said “heres 20k (or whatever) but you can only spend it on watches (like a book token, but for steel and cogs) I would maybe have a Pagani Design 1694, or a Ginault Secret Service, in the shopping pile, but everything else won’t be a Rolex. I would literally have a Hublot in there first (though that 20k of imaginary money just had a pump up moment) They just aren’t for me… and for once it’s not just about the price, y’know?

But something if the style of one? A no date one? I could go for that.

Alea iacta est -- just ordered this one from Amazon:

1. Homages work for me especially for Gen watches I would always consider. With regards to clones I’m not too sure, have really tried to dabble in them, some are very like the gens. Still on the fence about them.

I'm impressed how much this debate is inflaming some.

I know that owning a watch or more then one can be a very passionate thing.

I do feel very enthusiastic about watches.

But at the end of the day a watch is a material thing so the connection we have with the watch is solely personal and for so many diverse and good reasons.

If there's a watch you own or that you would like to have makes you feel good then this watch is the one. Period.

For some, having a Rolex doesn't make sense, for others having a pagani doesn't make any sense either. No one is right on this but no one is wrong either.

Both are amazing on the wrist of the person who wears it.

Enjoy them

Wear them

Baby them

Beat them

It's yours

Not anyone else.

If you can afford the very expensive ones then good for you

If you can't afford expensive ones there are some very fun and good watches out there that will give you as much pride or fun. That's the beauty of having many choices no matter your budget or what watches means to you.

Vive Seiko Casio Rolex Pagani Baltani San martín Cartier and all the others as long as they make you happy!

Vive the watches!

🎉

That Breitling Sprint is amazing!

Now you've sent me down another rabbit hole - I need one of those in the collection 😉

The surfboard chronograph is such a cool design.

How do you feel about historic brands "knocking off" their own designs?

For example, Bulova has done a nice job re-releasing its surfboard chronograph...

And Breitling has been doing an awesome job with the recent Top Times...

So what's your verdict on the vintage reissues? Obviously you can see what my vote is...I love both.

Since everyone's getting all inflamed about this topic, I'll just add some more fuel to the fire. Wrote this in yet another thread about homages, so...

• All luxury goods exist solely for humans to use as signaling devices

• The reason that some people feel soooooooooo much moral outrage at the idea of fakes is because the fakes take away from the genuine luxury article's ability to endow the wearer with the allure of high socio-economic status - if the observer cannot tell if the article is genuine or fake, then the signaling power of the article is negated

• The same holds, but to a lesser degree when it comes to homages - homages blur the line between "ultra expensive luxury good" and "easily and cheaply replicated good" - and we see much moral outrage yet again from some folks toward homages

And, I suppose, the above is PRECISELY why I love fakes and homages so much!!!

There were a few angry comments in my thread, the perpetrators of which I blocked. But, had I not blocked them, what I would have responded with is something akin to...

1. Dude, why are you relying so heavily on your "genuine" luxury watch to signal your socio-economic status such that you would get this angry about a post talking about fakes and homages???

2. If the genuine article is so amazing, why is it so easy to fake??? What that tells you is that there is nothing unique or proprietary about the genuine article!

3. Think of other high demand, luxury goods. For instance, the iPhone. The iPhone 14 Pro Max w/1TB storage costs $1,499. That is A LOT of money. Well, why don't we have a massive super rep community out there, making fake iPhone 14 Pro Max'es with 1TB storage for 1/20th the price that Apple sells their genuine articles for? Why? Because nobody else has the manufacturing scale and technical know-how and design chops to build the iPhone 14 Pro Max w/1TB storage for $1,499, much less for $2,999!!!

There are things you can fake and there are things you can't. If you can fake something, and make money by undercutting the manufacturer of the genuine article by a factor of 10 or 20, what it tells you is that there is nothing unique or special about the genuine article!

Ultimately, I would say, if you want to tie your socio-economic status signaling to some luxury good, then find a luxury good that can't be faked! Then you won't need to feel any moral outrage!

In the meantime, I applaud everyone out there making it easier for folks with less money to enjoy their hobbies!

I’m sure they are and I’m glad you like them.

I’m not on a pedestal, whatever that means, I just have a different opinion.

Sure, but when you have endless discussion because two sides fundamentally value different things, it gets tedious.

Look at the Phylida NTTD with the PT-5000 eta 2824 clone movement instead of the pagani

Well said my friend!

I wear my Garmin just for workouts, so I still rely on my watches to still tell the time accurately and give me the date (very helpful in my line of work). (work pic!)

Watches are more a passion project that would never be satisficed with a knockoff.