Is China Actually Winning the Authenticity Battle Against the Swiss?

If one was trained to to build watch movements and so happens to be Asian but this Asian learned to build Swiss movements in Switzerland and went back home in Asia somewhere and started building Swiss types movements is it still a Swiss movement? Even though the parts are the same type steel and same machines used?!! Hmmm 🤔

I have so far bought 4 Chinese watches. Gave away 1, not because I didn’t like it but because the person I gave it to love it more. 2 Paganis, 1 Cadisen, 1 Loreo. All work great, all worth the cost. In fact, dare I say it, they deliver the best value for money among all the watches I’ve ever bought. So… not sure about authenticity but Chinese watches are definitely worth it. I will recommend them all day long.

Not really mentioned the watches from Ali Express have virtually zero after sales service and/or support. This makes them not really repairable and therefore disposable.

You can get a Chinese made Rolex "clomage" (great word btw) from San Martin, the same but made in America from Invicta, or even the same again but actually "Swiss made" from Mathey-Tissot (no relation)! All of these watches are equally valuable to me. If all you're after is a look, there's no reason to spring for the genuine article. If what you're buying is a name or an idea, that's what you're paying for. But a look? You can't stop your guests from wearing the same dress as you to your party.

I do really like Baltany. I haven't bought one yet but there are several I like. They seem to be really good at the vintage look and their field watches and military chronograph look great. I'm often tempted by Ali Express, but usually only around the time Jody goes on a spending spree.

My thoughts are that the Chinese watch making industry has gotten a lot better fast. There are reputable brands that make their own watches and others that make homages. All have great specs at affordable prices. But, you also get fakes that are made really well that can actually deceive even the experts. It does make you wonder about the prices of European watches.

These watches are not hiding what they are.

Come again? Does it say, "I am a Clomage" somewhere, anywhere... no? Okay, so if dishonesty in "Swiss Made" (the meaning of which is no secret) is a thing, then how is this not hiding what it is?

And why do people get so hung up over where what was made in which ratio? The hell does it matter anyway?

Brand X has developed a product P. That includes for fancy watches the movement architecture, dial layout, case & bracelet, etc. Brand X decides to sell product P under name X. They can decide to manufacture it on Mars, that doesn't mean the Martians can claim it their own. How can a product Q from company Y that differs only in its name (and possibly quality) from P be more original? I don't see it. Q can be better and cheaper than P, in which case I am totally up for buying it, but it sure enough cannot be more original. It's a sliding scale on which most watches are largely "inauthentic" and San Martin is of course no "worse" than Steinhart but the Swiss have many more "originals" than the Chinese 🍻.

This speaks to me. I wanted the brand JLC so I bought a JLC, nothing else would've sufficed. And when the time comes that I need to pull the trigger on a VC, it will have to be a true VC because what I'm buying is the brand. That's not happening anytime soon though. I liked the look of the Submariner but didn't care for Rolex as a brand so I got the Loreo homage instead. I'm now looking for an AP homage because, while I like the look of the Royal Oak, I don't desire after the AP brand.

I don't know why, for some people, the act of cheaply paying for a "look" instead of selling my kidney for a brand is like violating a person.

Vote with your wallet. There is a market for the clomages, no matter your feelings on the matter. And, your feelings don’t matter to the person paying for the watch. If they are upfront and say “inspired by…” or some derivatives of the term, that’s it. I don’t own any Chinese made watches and probably never will, but that’s out of respect for my family’s personal history.

Sorry in advance to my vegetarian friends.

Both Applebees and Morton’s have fillet mignon on the menu. One is $15 bucks comes with two sides and the other is $65 just for the steak and the sides are $15-$20 each. Which is a better product and dining experience? Depends on what one values. Many do not care about the finer details and that is fine. Others do care, but cannot afford it and may try to do their own version at home. If someone does not give two Fs about where the product came from, why one spent 45 days dry aging the steak in a controlled space, cooking to exact specs at the exact temps, letting it sit the exact time before serving. Some people see food, eat food. Others care about the quality and preparation and are willing to pay for it as well as experience.

To me the Chinese clones are similar with a side of IP theft. The brands are not hiding the fact they are trying to replicate an original product with lesser parts, quality, and craftsmanship for next to nothing. The community is broad and not everyone can afford the original. They have their place and some people graduate from homages to better quality and more original pieces. For many it is a right of passage in the hobby. Others want a ton of variety for not a ton of money.

The rub for me is, can the person who genuinely sees value in a $10K watch sit at the same table as the person who sees value in a $100 homage without insulting each other? It is so easy to trigger both parties. The level of judgement on both sides is silly and predictable.

When I buy a watch regardless of the price I want in to be original. I want it to be what I expected. I want to be able to pass it on to my children.

When I buy a truck. I'll shop for the truck I want. What I want in it. How much I want to spend. I'll buy it. So it'll will be an American crew cab 4x4. I know this truck will have Chinese made parts in it. Some of it will be assembled in Mexico. But it's still the truck I want. I will probably pay to much for it. But I will be proud of my new truck. I'll show it to my friends and people a work will ask me about it. I'll end up lifting it and put bigger tires on it and I'll take care of it. I'll have a nice truck. The truck will become part of my family. It will get passed on to one of the kids when I'm done with it.

I won't buy a Chinese knock off truck because it's not the truck that I wanted. It's not going to last. It won't have any value. I won't be proud of it. It won't get passed down.

I won't buy a "Clomage" watch. Or a pair of shoes, a bicycle, a TV, a skateboard the list could go on.....for that matter.

Wow.... That's like the inception of watch making! 😆

I think the Chinese need to learn how to tell a better story.

It's like when they sell eggs at the supermarket and have idyllic images like....

On the boxes, when we all know it's more like...

Just tell us some little story about an artisan watch maker loving crafting each piece and they'd sell so much better!

I have tried Chinese brands in the past. At first out of curiosity and then out of sheer perversion because I'm a tinkerer and I certainly am not brave or wealthy enough to start poking at a $1k+ or even a $500 watch. In that vein, I think Chinese suppliers, not just brands are offering casual users alot of value.

90% of my AliExpress watches I built myself. Yes, most modeled after popular watches, but with whatever specific design tweaks I chose. Thus I think the Chinese have brought a level of practicality when it comes to designing and building watches that the Swiss have never offered and never intended to offer. Think of how many microbrands wouldn't exist without Chinese manufacturing. Even the "Swiss Made" ones rely on the Asian supply chain which is sustained in part by demand for homages.

Yes, homage or replica brands are shameless in copying designs, but look at watch design history. Vintage skin divers and field watches as examples are all within 3 degrees or less of looking the exact same, and this was before China was able to copy/paste at will. Why? Because even back in the day the masses wanted things that looked similar but at different price points. If you couldn't buy the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms you bought the Bulova version that looked just like it.

I'll end by saying I think it's a bit ironic for anyone to hyperfocus on buying an "authentic" product for specific objects only (like watches). If fake brands are for fake people we are all complicit in being posers since we all buy cheap versions of something or other when we see more of a fleeting functional value in something vs a long lasting emotional value.

Stories like the Spaghetti Scammeti fill me with apprehension 😆

I don't want a watch with a load of lint on the dial, but that's probably much more likely with the really cheap options... Like £10 cheap... I imagine the Same Martin price range is better quality? Never handled a Pagani, so not sure how they'd be 🤔

There are good ones, not all. Unfortunately the mugols don't know the difference.

Preach Brotha

To my limited knowledge this:

With the listed diameter, doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. Just saying.

Closest I know of is the new Wolbrook Skindiver II, and even then it's not titanium.

What I would totally not mind is if San Martin and others actually started IMPROVING on the designs..or adding different crown options, etc.

I would actually pay good money for a solar, ana digi, Chronosport Sea Quartz UDT. As it stands right now, and in my opinion some of the Chinese Microbrands will be the ones doing it.

Also some of the original design stuff from San Martin, like the SN085G are pretty neat. Solid screw lugs, solid end link bracelet, dial and color take design cues from the Hamilton Khaki Frogman, but still be their own thing.

Your in a good spot. Your young and this watch hobby or collection doesn't need to happen over night. Take you time save and what you want. Have fun. Keep me in the loop on your next purchase.

I’m probably more mogul than wizard. I honestly also can’t tell the difference in quality between my Loreo and my father’s Rolex except for the magic of the Rolex brand. I also can’t really tell the difference between my Loreo and my Pagani. One fits better than the other, sure, but surely that’s a sizing issue? I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like an imposter in this hobby. I like watches but not to the point of caring about the finer details.

My short answer to the headline question is: no-one can really win that battle. Apart from actual fakes, every watch is just as "authentic" as it feels to its owner, and everyone is free to make their own call on what that means to them. Though, if your opposition to inauthentic watches extends to wanting to dissociate yourself from every brand that has ever engaged in copying or "homaging", I have some bad news for you about some of the big Swiss brands...

Regarding Chinese watches in general, I think the time is fast approaching when this label won't be sufficient on its own to say something meaningful about the quality of a watch. Flik Flak and Breguet are both "Swiss", but there's a big gap in quality between the watches of those two brands. I'd say the gap between the best and worst Chinese watches still isn't quite that large, but it is big and getting bigger all the time.

My observation is that most are homage based; doesn’t make them fake. Look at the swizz industry in the 20th century. It’s just how it is when you’re starting out. It’s also useful to distinguish the brands; not all are cut the same.

Yeah, he got me into the whole clomage game. Those Ali sales were too good to resist haha

I absolutely love the Rolex Daytona Rainbow 🌈. But I do not have $650,000 because I am a normal person. So

(sorry got cut off cuz my puppy managed to hit the send button) anyhoo, if I can find a Pagani with the same design for $75, there’s nothing wrong with that IMO. “You should save up and buy the real thing”. Seriously in all my years of working, I’m pretty sure I haven’t earned $500k in total. I swear there is so much gate keeping and snobbery in this hobby.

The biggest problem I see with all of this, is that a few designs are replicated at scale. If I see something that looks like a Submariner, I'm not even going to give it a second glance. No matter if it is the original or an homage, it's a really well-known entity. Not a whole lot to say about it.

Very different from the Tudor P01 a coworker wore the other day. I started a discussion, because I don't see it all the time.

I always buy a movement first so this pretty much precludes my buying a copy or Homage after watching Marshall on “Wrist watch revival” on YouTube , and seeing inside good watches compared to cheap ones :)

I don’t like what China (the country) does (IP theft, human rights, corruption, repression, oceanic damage, +++) and since Chinese companies are owned partially or fully by the government in a totalitarian state, Hence, I don’t buy Chinese watches.

I’m sure you can decent quality for cheap, but for similar coin I’ll go with a second hand watch from a company I like and trust more, and that’s not Chinese.

Russia is currently bombing children and blowing up schools and hospitals and I wouldn’t buy a new Russian watch (happily, easy to avoid!) for the same reasons.

Valid points about a beginner collector or someone with a lack of buying power. If they desire gold rainbow Daytona above all else, then yup, a Chinese clomage is the only option. So that part isn’t ever going away.

Oh God, such a decisive issue.. and one that will probably never be resolved.

Sure, Rolex etc, have paid for design teams, quality control checks, higher overhead costs, dealerships and I imagine have an excellent customer aftercare service but they are aiming their product at a customer base who can, and are prepared to pay for a quality brand and I'm pretty sure they are making a healthy profit in the process.

On the Chinese side of the coin, I don't imagine 316l steel is as good as whatever luxury Swiss brands use, but come on. It's tough, it's utilitarian and it gets the job done. The same goes for the cheaper sapphire glass that is being used. At least it's better than the mineral or acrylic that's used by a lot of acceptable brands because it's "authentic".

Let's get down to the powerhouse of the Chinese watches. As far as I can see, most of them are NH35,36 or 38 derived which are unbranded Seiko movements, probably made in Malaysia. Same as the branded movements (unless it's a JDM watch, as far as I understand). Nobody has a problem with Seiko using Malaysian movements right?

So maybe, it all comes down to politics and we all rightly have issues with the Chinese government. I'm not going to decry the citizens, because, if you live there. Your going to do what you can to put food on the table.

So, the government has a terrible human rights problem which we are right to be disgusted by. But who here doesn't buy Chinese goods? Where do we think the majority of our luxury and not so luxury products are made. iPhones, Google phones. Games consoles, TV sets. Kitchen appliances, pillows for our beds, crockery for our tables, footwear, pens, etc, etc,etc. The list is probably endless and most if not all of it, copied or based on designs that are decades old. One other thing.. quartz. I believe China have cornered a huge market in the worlds supply and it is probably used in 99% of our electronic goods. Including the quartz watches that are so well loved here.

So I ask you.. why do we have problems with Chinese watches, that are obviously promoting and pricing themselves as homages, clones, clomages, call them what you like.

Obviously fake watches that are trying to pass themselves off as originals are a whole different kettle of fish and are a rant for a different day.

But as @JaeBust said way back at the beginning.. "you get what you pay for". Some people can and are happy paying 10k for a piece of wrist candy and more power to you. Others for reasons of their own are just as happy paying $100.

Here on Watch Crunch, I see many people spending money at both ends of the spectrum so let's all play nice together, accept each other's choices and enjoy our hobby.