The end of the department store watch may be near.
It is a casual slight to call a brand of watch a “mall” or “department store” watch. Bulova, Citizen, and Casio get tagged this way. My WRUW watch today, a Columbia that is at least 17 years old, was probably bought by my wife at Belk. Department stores traditionally were the principal means to sell watches to all types of consumers. Neiman Marcus sold to the high-end, J.C. Penney and Montgomery Ward the other, and everyone else in between.
The closest department store to my house is a Kohl’s. I am usually in there before Christmas and near birthdays. I buy socks and occasional clothing with the Kohl’s Cash that my wife doesn’t want to expire. It is an old habit. I am old enough to have shopped at many stores that have not survived: Gimbles, Strawbridge & Clothier, John Wanamaker (you can find some nice JW watches out there), Woodward & Lothrop, Bamberger’s, Foley’s, May D&F, Hecht’s, I. Magnin, W.T. Grant, Mervyn’s, Lord & Taylor, Broadway Southwest, Joslin’s, Garfinkel’s, Maison Blanche, D.H. Holmes (my first credit/store card), Krauss (bought a refrigerator at Krauss on Canal Street, they still used pneumatic tubes between departments), and Korvette’s. Today I popped in for the first time since December. I was shocked.
I thought that the jewelry case that was in the front of the store had been removed entirely. (I eventually found it.) At least 30% of the merchandise was missing. The store looked empty. American consumers want full stores even if we buy online. “Just in time” stocking doesn’t work in retail. Empty stores are dying stores.
When I got home I checked Kohl’s financials. They only reported a 4.7% loss in comparable sales year over year. However, I found a Forbes article from January that painted a bleaker picture, with earnings down 40% from 2023. I don’t have to be a smart guy like @Edge168n to see where this is heading.
I found the jewelry case. It is maybe 5% of what it was just a few months ago. Here are all your selections in “Men’s Fashion Watches”:
In December they had Casio, Seiko, oversized Citizens, and some no-name brands. Now they have nothing worth taking out of the case.
I am not sure that I want the department store watch to go away. Seeing watches in person should be an option. There isn’t an AD in every town or small city. A computer rendering in e-commerce can’t replace the real life experience.
I liked the old downtown. We didn’t keep it. I liked malls well enough. We didn’t keep them. It is not that I don’t like change, it is just that this doesn’t seem like progress. (Wait, I am a vintage collector, maybe I don’t like change…) This isn’t the future that I wanted.
Restitutor Orbis. Aristocrat of beauty. Autocrat of time. (Trying to perfect trolling over at theescapementroom.com)
Same thing in my Kohl's, as far as the watch selection. Just a few cheap "fashion" watches.
Here's an old JC Penney watch in gold plate, a favorite in my collection, actually:
#oldmanyellsatclouds 😂
When I grow up my mid sized city had it all. Now it’s a museum made up of nice buildings, restaurants and opticians. The remains has moved to shopping malls outside the city. Another sad story.
#oldmanyellsatclouds 😂
#oldmantiltsatwindmills
#dragonsarereal
I can remember some of those.
Used to go shopping with my grandad at Foleys when we were on vacation. Same thing with Lord and Taylor.
Older clientele aside, when was the last time y'all saw a Luby's, etc?
Very cool piece Greg. In my travels and reading, I am always fascinated by various local chains that we think are massive in our little world, only to realize once we leave said little world, they are not.
You are spot on, department stores are done, as are traditional malls. The only folks left at malls are teenagers and they don't spend enough to keep them in business. As to Kohls, this would be a good discussion to bring @Edge168n into the mix. I think many traditional shopping plaza and mall brands are walking dead. Sure, several had a spike because of COVID but most are falling back down to earth. Kohls suffers the fate of having too many departments and not really being good at any of them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with their wares, but they are in a weird middle zone (in the US). If people want cheaper, they go to Walmart. If they want better versions, they hit the outlets. Then there is Target. They do Kohls better than Kohls does Kohls. Throw in the fact they just are not "cool" for the kids, it makes for a tough UVP. Sure they sell Nike, but made for Kohls Nike, and the kids know it.
I am pretty confident that my local Kohls only exists to help with Amazon at this point. Macy's, JCPenny, Dillards, etc, all on life support and avoiding the inevitable until Amazon uses the space for distribution, or someone puts in Pickle Ball courts.
It is sad to think of these neighborhood mainstays as dying brands, but here we are. I know I am part of the problem, give me my ipad and I will find just about anything I want to buy.
Commercial real estate will be interesting to keep an eye on. Ultimately, people still want to go out, I am just not as sure they want to go out shopping, at least not like they used to.
Blame Amazon - destroying one high street and one shopping mall at a time. I like going to shops, no person should have as much control over shopping as Bezos does.
Hell I sold shoes at Jordan Marsh in college
Just boarded up buildings in Blighty for your average town, since the rise of Amazon, eBay etc, the high street or town Center has started to disappear quickly…….👎🏻
I can remember some of those.
Used to go shopping with my grandad at Foleys when we were on vacation. Same thing with Lord and Taylor.
Older clientele aside, when was the last time y'all saw a Luby's, etc?
My wife grew up in Dallas. We have this argument from time to time: she wants to go to a cafeteria. I complain because we aren't old enough and we still have taste buds. She thinks every cafeteria is like the Highland Park Cafeteria (it was a genuinely good restaurant). I think every cafeteria is like Luby's, Morrison's, or Piccadilly. We have an S & S by the house. We have only been there once, and it was ironically.
Blame Amazon - destroying one high street and one shopping mall at a time. I like going to shops, no person should have as much control over shopping as Bezos does.
Market capitalism can be destructive. It sometimes destroys what we like as well as things of no use to us. Not enough go to shops.
I was really glad when this reopened:
I bought my favorite fountain pen here in the 1990's. The store had lost money for at least three decades when it closed. LVMH can afford to prop it up. Stores like this are Disney World for retail.
Market capitalism can be destructive. It sometimes destroys what we like as well as things of no use to us. Not enough go to shops.
I was really glad when this reopened:
I bought my favorite fountain pen here in the 1990's. The store had lost money for at least three decades when it closed. LVMH can afford to prop it up. Stores like this are Disney World for retail.
Hanging on my wall. I love Samaritans. Great shop, nice watch section staff and lovely cakes! Pont Neuf is a nice area.
Damn stupid autocorrect changed Samaritane!
Blame Amazon - destroying one high street and one shopping mall at a time. I like going to shops, no person should have as much control over shopping as Bezos does.
I would say it is more like blame us. I do not like shopping in stores. I also do not like shopping at places that have mostly crap I do not want, or they have it, just to a lesser extent. IE, local hardware; very limited inventory, but they can order whatever you need and have it in a few days. Well, so can I without making multiple trips.
Not saying Amazon is great, but they are no worse than Kohls, or Walmart to local economies. Just like the car replaced the horse for transportation, we cannot blame the car or online stores for a more convenient experience, but we have to figure out how to adapt and I am sure we will.
I would say it is more like blame us. I do not like shopping in stores. I also do not like shopping at places that have mostly crap I do not want, or they have it, just to a lesser extent. IE, local hardware; very limited inventory, but they can order whatever you need and have it in a few days. Well, so can I without making multiple trips.
Not saying Amazon is great, but they are no worse than Kohls, or Walmart to local economies. Just like the car replaced the horse for transportation, we cannot blame the car or online stores for a more convenient experience, but we have to figure out how to adapt and I am sure we will.
I agree with you, BUT...there is always a but...I am not sure that "convenience" is all that it is cracked up to be.
This is my highly personal example: I have owned and restored old houses in two cities. The convenience of the big box stores like Home Depot surpassed the online retailers. But higher still was the knowledge and unique inventory of local hardware stores. They carried the weird old stock of things that old houses required. They knew the name of the part that you could only vaguely describe or showed them a picture of on your phone. Nothing would work in New Orleans without Harry's Ace.
There will be a rebalancing and further readjustment. Just twenty years ago everyone thought Walmart was the bad guy and that they would control everything. It was a nice run and many local department stores fell to the aggressors from Arkansas, but they proved to be just like anyone else. Here is a random prediction from an anonymous guy on the internet (me): in thirty years time Walmart will not be considered primarily a brick and mortar retailer. Walmart will transition into an information company (like Nintendo was a playing card company once). Walmart is further along (for their own purposes) with AI than Google. Google wants to add melanin to the Founding Fathers. Walmart wants to anticipate that you need socks when you buy shoes.
I remember that time of year when we were kids, when we got the Sears wish list book. I was more into toy trucks & Hot Wheels then instead of watches, but I still miss that book. We would pass it around the living room, folding pages and circling items.
Sears is gone here, but we still have the Hudson's Bay. They are struggling. I was able to get 40% off my Seiko 5 there during their Bay Days sale.
Trying on my Seiko in the store was the deciding factor. I also got to see all the colourways on my short list, and try out 4-5 different watches.
Tissot PRX, Seiko 5KX & DresSKX, lots of Citizens, Casios and fashion brands.
I hope they don't go under, but they likely will.
I would offer two cautions:
We are in a period of change - a few years ago ALL in person stores were dying and DTC/Online was the range. Now DTCs are closing, stores are regaining ground. Will this save the big department store? Dont know but it gives me pause writing them off just yet.
While not a US unique issue, I think the US has some factors making this way worse for you guys. First super lax labor laws have allowed places like walmart to gut a lot of traditonal stores and amazon (in the US) to be shockingly cheap. Also, you have a lot of smaller cities/towns in that awkward size of not quite big enough to have full service department stores but big enough to support a slightly shitty department store, and far enough away from a big city that driving isnt an option and online looks great.
The best example I can think of to capture the difference between the US and (say) Austrlian here - in the US KMart is effectively a dead store walking, here in Oz its going great guns and really popular.
I am going to pump the brakes on your cautions, caution your cautions, if you will.
Your first point, well I just don't know. Immediately after the pandemic ended brick and mortar stores staged a comeback. That comeback has stalled. I don't know which way the arrows are trending in the long term. I can agree that we are in a period of change and America due to the size and centrality of its economy can feel the effects of this change sooner than other places. It may be this dynamism that leads to point 2.
I am going to push back on labor laws being central to Walmart's rise as a dominant store in the last third of the 20th Century. This is way too long a point for a comment, but Walmart was one of the first stores to take advantage of manufacturing efficiencies in Hong Kong and China (there is a watch analogy there somewhere). It first appeared in the invisible parts of the store to the consumer: racks, fixtures, bags, and hangers. Until the 1970's these were manufactured in the United States in little regional factories. Walmart was at the forefront of container shipping. The second thing Walmart did was lock manufacturers of consumer goods into exclusive contracts that kept prices low. Labor laws only became an issue when Walmart expanded into states with more traditional labor protections. You could write a book about Amazon. It lost money for decades. Its growth was only possible with great leaps in computing power, both for its servers, and for consumers. Its supply chain innovations gave it an edge. It also created its own world-wide delivery service, cutting out FedEx and DHL.
Another caution: what if this is Kohl's specific? Maybe they are mismanaged. Perhaps I can't extrapolate from just one store in one small city. (I looked it up, Charleston would rank between Geelong and Cairns by population.) I went to a mall in Nashville, Tennessee recently and I had a flood of nostalgia. It was packed. These trends may be more regional than I thought.
I have a good friend who immigrated here from Australia in the 1990's. He goes back to visit family frequently. He has always said that he is struck when he goes back how Australia seems just like the U.S. was 15 to 20 years ago. It has really made him consider taking his family back because he thinks it may provide a better environment for young children. I wish that anecdote made me feel better, but it doesn't. We may be shedding some of the good as we evolve economically and socially.
I hope all retail stores disappear entirely. EVERYTHING should be available through Amazon. I want to get my socks, my watches, my car, my prescriptions, my illegal drugs, my dates, and my future children all dropped at my front door by a drone, flying directly from an Amazon warehouse.
Oh, so you don't want teleporter technology? Bigot.
I remember that time of year when we were kids, when we got the Sears wish list book. I was more into toy trucks & Hot Wheels then instead of watches, but I still miss that book. We would pass it around the living room, folding pages and circling items.
Sears is gone here, but we still have the Hudson's Bay. They are struggling. I was able to get 40% off my Seiko 5 there during their Bay Days sale.
Trying on my Seiko in the store was the deciding factor. I also got to see all the colourways on my short list, and try out 4-5 different watches.
Tissot PRX, Seiko 5KX & DresSKX, lots of Citizens, Casios and fashion brands.
I hope they don't go under, but they likely will.
Hudson's Bay is the answer to a question in history class. I hope that you don't lose it. Western Civilization would be diminished.
Possibly this is the reason department stores are no longer stocking watches...
It seems in the past four years this has been OK'd by those DAs funded by he who cannot be named...
Sad but I believe malls/department stores to be on the endangered species list. Who'd have thought a stalwart like Sears would go under? What is on offer in store display is a canary in the coal mine, and it is gasping for air. I guess we could blame Amazon, but if Amazon didn't exist, something similar would. I bought my first watch at a Woolworth's. They went the way of the dodo and passenger pigeon ages ago. I don't know if they're sustainable anymore.
I hope all retail stores disappear entirely. EVERYTHING should be available through Amazon. I want to get my socks, my watches, my car, my prescriptions, my illegal drugs, my dates, and my future children all dropped at my front door by a drone, flying directly from an Amazon warehouse.
Yes, when will Amazon start to sell shrooms? Asking for a friend.
When I last lived in the US four years ago, Walmarts had a decent selection of Casio and Timex.
In the UK TKMaxx have the occasional bargain, especially from Tissot and Hamilton, but the stock is completely unpredictable as they just get the models which haven't sold elsewhere.
In terms of malls here, it's the jewelry stores that tend to still have good stock of watches. Citizen are very dominant with Tissot probably the most common Swiss brand.
Possibly this is the reason department stores are no longer stocking watches...
It seems in the past four years this has been OK'd by those DAs funded by he who cannot be named...
That is a problem in some US cities. I can say from experience that it isn't here.
When I last lived in the US four years ago, Walmarts had a decent selection of Casio and Timex.
In the UK TKMaxx have the occasional bargain, especially from Tissot and Hamilton, but the stock is completely unpredictable as they just get the models which haven't sold elsewhere.
In terms of malls here, it's the jewelry stores that tend to still have good stock of watches. Citizen are very dominant with Tissot probably the most common Swiss brand.
Four years is a long time. I was in TJ Maxx yesterday buying socks. I don't think that store has ever stocked a Tissot or Hamilton. I was in a surf themed clothing store last weekend with my daughter and they had a wide variety of G-Shocks. We are just not a G-Shock family by inclination.
I am going to pump the brakes on your cautions, caution your cautions, if you will.
Your first point, well I just don't know. Immediately after the pandemic ended brick and mortar stores staged a comeback. That comeback has stalled. I don't know which way the arrows are trending in the long term. I can agree that we are in a period of change and America due to the size and centrality of its economy can feel the effects of this change sooner than other places. It may be this dynamism that leads to point 2.
I am going to push back on labor laws being central to Walmart's rise as a dominant store in the last third of the 20th Century. This is way too long a point for a comment, but Walmart was one of the first stores to take advantage of manufacturing efficiencies in Hong Kong and China (there is a watch analogy there somewhere). It first appeared in the invisible parts of the store to the consumer: racks, fixtures, bags, and hangers. Until the 1970's these were manufactured in the United States in little regional factories. Walmart was at the forefront of container shipping. The second thing Walmart did was lock manufacturers of consumer goods into exclusive contracts that kept prices low. Labor laws only became an issue when Walmart expanded into states with more traditional labor protections. You could write a book about Amazon. It lost money for decades. Its growth was only possible with great leaps in computing power, both for its servers, and for consumers. Its supply chain innovations gave it an edge. It also created its own world-wide delivery service, cutting out FedEx and DHL.
Another caution: what if this is Kohl's specific? Maybe they are mismanaged. Perhaps I can't extrapolate from just one store in one small city. (I looked it up, Charleston would rank between Geelong and Cairns by population.) I went to a mall in Nashville, Tennessee recently and I had a flood of nostalgia. It was packed. These trends may be more regional than I thought.
I have a good friend who immigrated here from Australia in the 1990's. He goes back to visit family frequently. He has always said that he is struck when he goes back how Australia seems just like the U.S. was 15 to 20 years ago. It has really made him consider taking his family back because he thinks it may provide a better environment for young children. I wish that anecdote made me feel better, but it doesn't. We may be shedding some of the good as we evolve economically and socially.
On your last point I'd say (having lived in the US and going there fairly regularly) Australia is both around 10 years behind and 10 years ahead of the US at the same time and superficially similar but fundamentally different. One day you'll be a model we are trying to emulate and next day a cautionary tale of what to avoid.
The comparison of charleston to cairns is a case in point. Yes from a population pov there are similarities but the closet town of note to cairns is townsville - 350km south and beyond that maybe mackay, another 300 odd km south and the nearest real "city" (brisbane) is 1700km from cairns. I suspect charleston would be a very different place if the only town of note nearby was (say) savvanah, which was 350 km away and nearest big city (say Atlanta) was 1700km away. These distances make everything weird.
There is no watch you can buy at a department store that you cannot find someplace else selling for half the price. Their "discounted" name brand watches are way overpriced. And even their cheaper fashion watches are just rebadged AliExpress watches selling for three times the AliExpress price. This is why they can routinely have 60% off sales, and still make nice profits.
Of course, the same could be said for everything else they sell. They have been made obsolete by competition from online sellers and same day delivery. And even big box stores like Walmart and Target cannot sell you Casio or Timex watches cheaper than Amazon can.
Eh, when you think about it large department stores are also a novelty (kind of, as long as you consider the 19th century to be relatively recent), and their creation disturbed the livelihood of countless of small shop owners and changed a lot of downtowns.
Things change, sometime for the better, sometime its a reversal of a previous change, and sometime it's not a change that we like or want to accept. But the nature of a change is that it will happen regardless of our personal like or dislike.
Eh, when you think about it large department stores are also a novelty (kind of, as long as you consider the 19th century to be relatively recent), and their creation disturbed the livelihood of countless of small shop owners and changed a lot of downtowns.
Things change, sometime for the better, sometime its a reversal of a previous change, and sometime it's not a change that we like or want to accept. But the nature of a change is that it will happen regardless of our personal like or dislike.
Name one thing that has changed for the better in your lifetime, except medicine, nutrition, longevity, access to markets, automobiles, computers, information technology, watches...wait, never mind.
Name one thing that has changed for the better in your lifetime, except medicine, nutrition, longevity, access to markets, automobiles, computers, information technology, watches...wait, never mind.
Funny that you ask this question because we have been arguing the same issue for the last couple of thousand's years.
https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ?si=naUfBA9DAure2Ewd