Chinese Trash?
I have few miles on the clock and remember a time when "made in Japan" was considered poor quality, cheap, and nasty. More recently I remember how Hyundai was sneered at as Korean car trash. Japan is now synonymous with quality and (increasingly!) expensive horology and Hyundai sweeps awards in the car trade. Too many of us still sneer at Chinese watches but with these past examples in mind, I will defend them.
I have worn and tested a number of common brands including Seagull, Pagani, Parnis, Steeldive and Benyar…perhaps 10-12 in total. With some exceptions, I have found them to have reliable (Japanese and Chinese) movements, and they are generally well-constructed- pushing $100-$200 above retail price in manufacturing quality and quality control.
We can be critical of the lack of originality; for example the Pagani suite of “homage clones”, but they place great looking watches in reach of many people who are not able to afford thousands of dollars for an “original”. Much the same way as we flock to Macy’s or Nordstrom's for clothes at knockdown prices that are clearly homages to haute couture that paraded down the catwalk at the price of a Lamborghini (well, almost) or slapped $500 on a cheap shirt for the sake of a logo… not that this happens in the watch world?
There is a good chance that at least some parts of the “good” watch on your wrist were manufactured or assembled in China. The modern watch industry in south east Asia is still in its infancy, Asia is not short of innovative designers and their time is coming. We should watch this space (no pun intended) with expectation. Prices are already starting to rise, brand identity is strengthening and widening, and YouTube influencers promote new releases to a growing fan base.
For those who are skeptical - if it looks like a good watch, keeps time like a good watch, is reliable like a good watch and demonstrates reasonable quality control then perhaps it is a good watch and can only get better. As with any burgeoning industry there will be many failures along the way, but a new base of high horology will soon emerge in S.E. Asia to challenge the Swiss and Japanese… now, if they could only work on those bloody guarantees :-)
Collector and enthusiast for more than 10 years. To many watches and too few wrists but each one is precious and carries memories of time, people and place.
Surely there is someone with closer cultural experience than I here to add insight.
I used to think that the spottiness and corner-cutting that often comes from China was a result of chabuduo, the "good enough" mentality that is purportedly endemic. As the Apple products streaming out of Foxconn show, they clearly can produce quality when they want to, or are forced to, or are paid sufficiently. I wish I knew which is was.
Even in my casual observance, I'm seeing the evolution from cheap and shoddy copies to more refined to design improvements and 'surprise and delight' quality for the money. I've seen several reviewers speak of how the Chinese manufacturers are very eager for feedback and quickly address noted issues with rapid product improvements. They're definitely on the upswing.
I just wish they weren't so stuck on the large watch trend, but they are mass manufacturing and that's still what sells, I guess.
I have 2 Pagani Design watches and my only complaint is some sloppy bezel mechanics on a Seamaster clone. But pefectly acceptible for a 130 dollar watch. My one Steeldive impresses me every time I wear it. Same with the 3 Spinnaker watches that I have.
China is also home to some very well repected watch manufacturers. Look up member @AlbertaTime for excellent information.
But it isn't fair, as many do, to criticize all Chinese manufactured watches as trash.
Honestly think the Chinese watches are one design away from threatening Orient/Seiko mechanicals. If the movements are reliable enough I can see many microbrands moving away from NH/Miyotas as well.
Other than the Sea Gull, I haven't found a Chinese watch that really piqued my interest though.
San Martin is a great example of an up and coming brand to watch. Although their prices have started to climb higher of late they still punch way above their price bracket. They’re moving into more original designs too and I could see them starting to give Seiko and Orient real nightmares.
You get what you pay for. For a few dollars you will get a Chinese watch, where you can feel the gears grinding when you wind it, you notice the ticking in a quiet room, and where you may cut yourself on the bracelet clasp if you are not careful. Some of the priecier pieces are truly nicely done, but China still falls short on native designs that please western consumers, at least from my perspective.
My overtly Chinese watches (Apple Watch, Garmin, GShocks) have all been fine.
DOXA is my favorite "regular watch" brand, and I'm sure that every bit not required for the "Swiss made" label is made in China.
I’ve owned a few of the Aliexpress Brands and have zero complaints. I’ve not noticed gears grinding, sharp edges, or loud ticking. I’ve always bought above the $100 mark so maybe that’s why but if you go lower than that you are going to get issues regardless of where it’s manufactured.
I'm sure at one point the British used to say "Swiss trash" 😉
It's how the world works, manufacturing naturally seeks lowest labor costs, once that place rises in econ standards, it moves onto the next locale.
South and southeast Asia seems to be next.
I’ve owned a few of the Aliexpress Brands and have zero complaints. I’ve not noticed gears grinding, sharp edges, or loud ticking. I’ve always bought above the $100 mark so maybe that’s why but if you go lower than that you are going to get issues regardless of where it’s manufactured.
I've been curious at to what gives in the $20 to $35 range. All the watches ran and kept time. I had expected worse. You however might still run into bracelet finishing issues in the $100+ range, though.
P.S.: I was expecting a picture of a watch in a box for under $35, and ordered them more as a joke. So weird sounds while winding are fine, or the seconds hand jumping 4 seconds when you push in the crown, or no hacking at all.
If you pay less than $100 for a watch it’s going to be up to a certain standard. Let’s be reasonable - if you want better quality then you have to pay for it, so to speak. I am quite impressed with a lot of what has been coming out of China for a number of years now, and whilst I do not own anything, I do feel that I may dabble very soon. That is also not a slight on existing Chinese watchmaking - it has been interesting following some of the historic posts that pop up, and therefore this is not some ”flash in the pan”. The watch industry is due a large shakeup - the established brands have been too complacent and buyers want to ensure that their money goes further, be it through AliExpress, micro-brands, resurgent brands, collaborations, or modding. I look forward to seeing how this pans out.
You get what you pay for. For a few dollars you will get a Chinese watch, where you can feel the gears grinding when you wind it, you notice the ticking in a quiet room, and where you may cut yourself on the bracelet clasp if you are not careful. Some of the priecier pieces are truly nicely done, but China still falls short on native designs that please western consumers, at least from my perspective.
Agreed on the design part but have you ever handled a newer San Martin for example? The build quality is seriously impressive! Also for example the PT5000 is a Chinese ETA 2824 Clone and it has really established itself for being accurate and reliable, it feels good when winding and all the 3 watches I've had with a PT5000 ran within +-5s/d.
I'm sure at one point the British used to say "Swiss trash" 😉
It's how the world works, manufacturing naturally seeks lowest labor costs, once that place rises in econ standards, it moves onto the next locale.
South and southeast Asia seems to be next.
The Swiss did not achieve their market dominance through reduced labor costs. British and American (IWC) watch developers were drawn to Switzerland very early on because of the skilled labor force. It was the specialization of the workforce that gave them an edge. World War II fatally wounded the British and American (and German) watch industries. Swiss neutrality and relative peace allowed them to refine movements that no other country could produce.
Japan and Hong Kong benefited from low labor costs initially. By the end of the 1970's Japan's labor advantage had largely evaporated. They achieved a technological advantage with the development of affordable and adaptable quartz movements. Labor wasn't the reason that the 1980's belonged to Citizen and Seiko.
In many respects we are asking the wrong question about the Chinese watch industry. The question isn't are they sufficient quality, it is why has it taken them this long to get to where they are? The answers are probably more historical and political than cultural or industrial. They got a late start. They had rural poverty that was not seen in Europe since before the Industrial Revolution. It takes generations to build a skilled work force to make precision movements. Sometimes it has to been imported like Lip helping to set up the Soviet watch industry.
Four paragraphs to say: skilled labor, not cheap labor.
You get what you pay for. For a few dollars you will get a Chinese watch, where you can feel the gears grinding when you wind it, you notice the ticking in a quiet room, and where you may cut yourself on the bracelet clasp if you are not careful. Some of the priecier pieces are truly nicely done, but China still falls short on native designs that please western consumers, at least from my perspective.
When did you last buy one? If it was some time ago, you might be in for a pleasant surprise... for a start, many now have genuine NH35 or cloned ETA movements so the days of abject "grinding" are (largely) past :-) In my experience, you are right about what was... but not what is and what will soon arrive. I agree many are homages and lack innovative design, but it will not take long. Thanks for taking time to answer my post... appreciate it and your views.
When did you last buy one? If it was some time ago, you might be in for a pleasant surprise... for a start, many now have genuine NH35 or cloned ETA movements so the days of abject "grinding" are (largely) past :-) In my experience, you are right about what was... but not what is and what will soon arrive. I agree many are homages and lack innovative design, but it will not take long. Thanks for taking time to answer my post... appreciate it and your views.
About two weeks ago? In that price class (<$50) they don't have NH35s, even though the TMI NH35s I have received in slightly pricier watches can vary quite a bit, and have a distinctly different feel to it than the 4R35s in my Seikos. That being said, I have absolutely no complaints about what I got for my money.
Agreed on the design part but have you ever handled a newer San Martin for example? The build quality is seriously impressive! Also for example the PT5000 is a Chinese ETA 2824 Clone and it has really established itself for being accurate and reliable, it feels good when winding and all the 3 watches I've had with a PT5000 ran within +-5s/d.
No, I have not. That is not so much a question of quality, but that I don't want a clone or the standard components you see on AliExpress if I spend that much money.
Or if you really wanted to have some fun at that $50-75 price range you could go vintage?
Maybe eventually, or if I find something I really want. I will give it time ...
Maybe eventually, or if I find something I really want. I will give it time ...
Just check the movement, no pin-pallets unless you can afford to throw the Watch away down the line.
The conclusion seems to be that the $100-$300 watches are good value and good quality, perhaps hitting above their price range, but that straps, especially bracelets, are inconsistent. That is certainly my experience... although Pagani's have improved of late in my experience. Over $300 is a different matter. There is increasing competition for good quality and at that price the watch is no longer a "throw away". Personally I start to worry about guarantees at that price because of the cost/hassle/reliability or returns and repairs. I have had to return a Steinhart, Hamilton and Tudor over the last couple of years , and postage alone can cost over $70. Steinhart were the only ones to pay for postage under guarantee. I have no idea how that would work with a China return. Does anyone have experience of that?
No, you've missed the point.
Interesting thread- wouldn’t it be agreeable to say that the very least watches like these make good weekend/beater watches?
Totally :-)
It's Chinese but not trash, It's beautiful, I love it, It has a tourbillion and 2 retrogrades, it cost me less than $800.00 and the Swiss can't do it for under $10,000.00.
In my eyes, Chinese manufacturers just need to have a little bit more faith in their own designs, the quality in materials finishing and so on is already there. Look at the 1963 is a cool and original design that is already iconic, and China being so vast and so old I can not see why wouldn't they look inwards for inspiration for their watches, yeah maybe it is a risk having a design not sell but you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. I really like the new Cadisen integrated bracelet sports watch, it is clearly inspired by the likes of Patek, AP, Maurice-Lacroix, and Tissot PRX, but it is also its own thing. But I was weirded out by how much they publicized it as made by a German desginer.
I have bought quite a few chinese watches, both quartz and mechanical, the mechanical ones ranging from £20 to £250. I did not notice grind in the movement. The biggest movement-related issue is for me that sometimes finding the date-setting position is tricky; also, one of my self-winders (the £20 one) required quite a bit of hand-winding upfront or it would come to a halt. Someone mentioned the PT5000 - I have a couple of watches using that movement, that indeed feels supersmooth.
With the cheaper Chinese watches (below £80, approx $100) I found mostly three issues:
The high end of AliExpress watches seems to start round about at the £150 (=$200) mark, where you get the no-compromises watches like SanMartin, Seestern, Cronos, etc. Right now I've ordered a couple of Lobinnis that supposedly fall into this category too. Of course, you can slap a high price on a cheaply made watch (who ever buys Oupinke watches?), but that would be my rough guide.
I've had good luck with Addiesdive and Merkur, too.
I've had good luck with Addiesdive and Merkur, too.
I have had one Addiesdive watch, generally fine, but the leather strap was trash - yes, I know, dive watch with leather strap, but I'm not a fan of bracelets, sue me.
Merkur I have noticed on Ali, with quite a few nice looking watches, e.g. they have a chrono with a big date complication [sold out though], a few nice dress watches, and some (rather dear) fliegers that give me vaguely Sinn/Damasko vibes. Also some stinkers in their collection. The designs appear to be original throughout, but IMHO Merkur looks more like a collection of brands than one brand. I know they have some subbrands, but the watches specifically labeled Merkur also do not give me a sense of a brand identity, their design is all over the place.
I have had one Addiesdive watch, generally fine, but the leather strap was trash - yes, I know, dive watch with leather strap, but I'm not a fan of bracelets, sue me.
Merkur I have noticed on Ali, with quite a few nice looking watches, e.g. they have a chrono with a big date complication [sold out though], a few nice dress watches, and some (rather dear) fliegers that give me vaguely Sinn/Damasko vibes. Also some stinkers in their collection. The designs appear to be original throughout, but IMHO Merkur looks more like a collection of brands than one brand. I know they have some subbrands, but the watches specifically labeled Merkur also do not give me a sense of a brand identity, their design is all over the place.
That's not unfair, and I don't want every watch they make--but I gotta say, I can't afford as many as I'd like, so there's that about their collection 😀
I got this San Martin for ~200$ when it was on sale on aliexpress.
So, for 200$ you get:
They even added the female endlinks for 0$ when I requested them to do so.
I know it’s a 6538 glorified copy, but not everyone and their mother has a couple kidneys to trade for the kind of cash you need to pay for a 6538, let alone one in an acceptable enough condition as to not be a museum piece already.
All things considered, I don’t know how many big brand names can pull off a watch like this for 200$
As China's premier watchmaker since 1955, Seagull Watches has earned recognition as a leader in Chinese horology through its continuous innovation and dedication to craftsmanship. By mastering complex technologies like tourbillon movements and upholding rigorous quality control, Seagull produces timepieces that can rival top Swiss brands. Models such as the exquisitely decorated Sea-Gull D820.2 tourbillon showcase Seagull's capabilities for high watchmaking art. As the first Chinese wristwatch brand to gain widespread global appeal, Seagull serves as an exemplar of China's achievements in watchmaking and demonstrates the nation's prowess in blending storied tradition with world-class manufacturing. Seagull remains a source of national pride and an inspiring ambassador for the future potential of Chinese brands on the global watchmaking stage.
Honestly think the Chinese watches are one design away from threatening Orient/Seiko mechanicals. If the movements are reliable enough I can see many microbrands moving away from NH/Miyotas as well.
Other than the Sea Gull, I haven't found a Chinese watch that really piqued my interest though.
Peacock watches also have great watchmaking technology
Agreed, well said.
Last year, I spent a lot of time introducing the historical Chinese watch brand Seagull Watches, which already enjoy high international reputation. Many WatchCrunch fellows asked me to recommend more Chinese brands, so today I would like to feature a lesser known brand - Peacock Watches. Although not as internationally renowned as Seagull, Peacock specializes in high-end tourbillon watches and possesses comparable, even superior technical expertise.
The reason I decided to showcase Peacock Watches is their newly launched central tourbillon watch inspired by black hole. As the first central tourbillon watch I've encountered, I'm drawn to its highly appealing design language as a 2023 Gold Winner of the Muse Design Awards. Built around a black hole theme, the minute and hour hands complemented by a carbon fiber flange together with the visually striking tourbillon mechanism as the centerpiece skillfully manifest this concept.
https://peacockwatches.com/products/peacock-black-hole-tourbillon-watch
Founded in 1957 in the beautiful border city Dandong, Peacock Watch is among the very few Chinese brands to have truly achieved self-reliant movement development. It is also among the very few worldwide that integrate over 160 techniques to independently research, design and manufacture high-end timepieces.
https://www.watchcrunch.com/alonzotang/posts/the-charm-of-black-hole-designed-by-peacock-watches-303563