Micro vs. Independent?

Microbrands are small businesses with no own brand shops, small volume and a more batch oriented production. IMHO

I think Teddy already nailed it.

I thought this has a decent definition of microbrand vs independent:

https://www.thewatchmuse.com/blog/microbrands-vs-independents#:~:text=A%20microbrand%20is%20an%20independently,finishing%20is%20done%20in%2Dhouse.

But I would say that I disagree with the statement "produce their products fully in-house" In my opinion, some percentage needs to be produced in-house to be considered an independent, but not necessarily 100%, specifically relating to 3rd party movements. Again just my opinion here.

I think the main thing is low production volumes, but the second thing is brand awareness. I'd say, if more than half of "watch nerds" could recognise your brand name if they saw it in the wild, you're starting to make the journey out from being a microbrand, even if your production volumes haven't caught up yet.

Definitely with you with number 1, but I think youtube has made the second point a bit tough. For example Studio Underdog in my opinion is definitely a microbrand but I’d probably say that more ”watch nerds” are aware of them than say a much larger brand with constant production such as Norqain. And that’s because almost every majour watch youtuber has spoken about them, although I imagine Richard doesn’t have any plans of ramping up production to non-micro levels.

You read YT comments?

Agreed completely with your take. Even high-level independent brands outsource certain aspects of their production, such as finishing, movement parts manufacture, etc.

Sometimes I just like to get angry at nothing 😂

I think he did . . . And then nobody seemed to get it haha 😂 Of course, the comment section typically isn’t where high levels of common sense reside.

Ok but sometimes I just like to get angry at everything

You should ask Archie what he thinks of microbrands? I’m sure if you do a pay review he’ll fit as many f-bombs in 10 minutes like you’ll hear in a decade.

I’m into micro independents

It is a nebulous concept, especially in the last 5 years. Independents use to be those like Roger Smith, Rexhep Rexhepi, Kari Voutilainen, and De Bethune. Throw MB&F and many others in that mix. They were small independent watch makers free of the weight of a large corp. They may have even started with one of the big player. Not all are relatively expensive, IE; Habring, Dornbluth, Moser etc.

Micro brands used to be those brands that largely rely on other parts makers and may have a relationship a private label that makes the watches. Micro does mean smaller price, sorry Ali express is not filled with “micro brands.”

Of course what has happened in recent years is two things:

• Pressure from the bottom. Everyone with a few thousand dollars can get a prototype and launch a Kickstarter to fund the launch of a “brand” that basically outsources the entire process to a private label. Not all private label makers are made equally. There are some that make exceptionally high end watches, there are others that make the cheapest watches you can think of.

• Pressure from the top: This is where the likes of Ming, Kurono Tokyo, Horage, and others come into play. Some of these do everything in house, others rely on other manufacturers.

Then we have the rise of large independent brands - These are the brands that started as smaller brands, smaller distribution, etc, that grew into their own significant brand rivaling Swiss and Japanese counterparts; Oris and CW for example.

Lastly, we then have conglomerate/group/private capital brands. For example, brands like Vulcain, Nivada Grenchen, and Excelsior have shared ownership and resources. Are any of them micro or independent?

So that leaves us a blend of a lot of different microcosms. There are micro brands with $10K plus watches and some with $200 watches. There are independent brands selling $1500 watches and some selling $3 million dollar watches. Some micro brands now make their own watches, some independents use larger parts suppliers.

TLDR, there is no longer a line, but there are clear delineations in processes. Trying to group them into one is fruitless and losing battle as no one can agree on categorization, which is a silly concept anyway.

I love microbrands, I'm still new to watch collecting and have a few brands but as long as I like the look and it's well made that's good enough for me

in-house movement and component production is the biggest factor for me. I think once you start producing your own movements, you can be considered an independent (Christopher Ward, Yema, Oris etc)

Just got done watching the video...which is a pretty good one to watch for anyone looking to enter the microbrand space as a collector.

To me the difference is quite simple...

Microbrand - uses a standard off-the-shelf movement, gets supplied by parts suppliers in Switzerland, Japan or China (or other parts supplier countries), and either assembles the watch from those parts themselves or pays someone to assemble the parts. Many will also use drop shipping to save on shipping costs. So you purchase the watch from the microbrand, it is manufactured and inventoried in China, and then drop shipped from the factory to you.

Microbrand example from Straton...

Independent - uses in-house movements or highly decorated or modified standard movements. All assembly is in-house and many of the parts are manufactured in-house or supplied by high-end specialist parts providers.

Independent example from Laine...

I kove his videos but Teddy pushes Seiko way too hard and overcharges on everything.

Brands like Kurono are def interesting b/c you have a famous watchmaker who has his own bespoke brand that punches with the likes of FP Journe and DuFour etc. But the Kurono line itself uses Miyota movements and outsources a lot of work . . . EVEN if that work is artisanal and handmade like complex lacquer dials. But Kurono also probably also has some careful attention to detail that is overseen in house as well from the bending of hands, the application of logo on more complex dials.

And then you have a company like AnOrdain that is well-regarded for its artistry and is also hyped by its scarcity and low volume . . . but nonetheless uses off the shelf movements.

So, you're exactly right. The Micro and Independent space is pretty varied and it's more of a spectrum rather than a this is one thing and this is the other.

Oh, yeah . . . I mean I like Seiko, but I think even occasionally Teddy breaks the wall of what he does and says something like "Look, I shouldn't say this as a business owner, but . . ." Glad the young man exists and does what he does and can't fault his hustle, but I def look at that channel with a grain of salt when it comes to hyping up certain watches and just appreciate the high production values of watch factory tours etc. which most other channels don't give us.

Oris is now at all a mirrors brand. Hell, neither is Christopher Ward anymore.

I’d say it’s a mixture of all of the above. I go with my gut and when you see one you just know it, some call it intuition

For me microbrand uses off the shelf movements (NH, Sellita, citizen,etc), usually new in the industry - 20 years or less, small production batches, owned by only a few individuals.

Examples of microbrands for me= zelos, brew, islander

Independents are watch companies that are not under a group umbrella. They operate on their own, have a long history in watchmaking (50 years+), and in most cases have in house movements or highly modified 3rd party movements.

Examples of independents for me- journe, moser, mb&f, oris

I agree with you %100. I loved the Muhle Glashutte video and the Mido video.

To further the discussion, can a micro seem like an independent? Thinking of Monta, Formex, and Traska.

What about reborn brands like Ollech & Wajs and Nivada Grenchen? By definition they would now be micros, right?

I’d say as long as they are doing something besides just assembling/regulating watches in house or worse yet, just shipping completed watches that were made for them by an outside source they’re more of an independent than microbrand. So if they are designing key components themselves like cases or bracelets or movement tech, or making any components themselves I’d be pretty willing to call them an independent.

IMO it's more about the control of the manufacturing and supply chain rather than the sales volume.

Microbrands usually outsource everything, including distribution. The independents usually keeps things more inhouse.

I think it is really a marketing term. I suspect a lot of companies like to seem niche and a bit exclusive. However, there are some small companies who, in my view, make use of the term with more justification than others.

Whos the guy labeling a 120 year old watch company a microbrand 😅

Anyway, i think Teddy nailed it.

I think independent is a better broad term than anything else. I was recently called out for calling Spinnaker a "microbrand." Ok maybe the term "independent" fits the bill or maybe not.

What we have these days is Swatch Group and a few other big groups like Richmont & LLVMH and then everything else. Within that everything else category its mostly independents.

Going forward I'm simply substituting the word "micro" with "independent."

😉