Diminishing returns

Watches are also all about the history of the brand. 

If a microbrand (established or new) straight up copied a Rolex or a Patek down to all the same materials, there's no way anyone would buy the copy for the same price as the real deal. Identical watches, vastly different prices. 

Granted, part of the difference is also the finishing. High end finishing just cannot be done on a mass scale without a massive workforce and of course there's a huge cost in that as well. 

As far as where that law kicks in, well that is up to the individual buying the watch. 

Maybe...I'm not sure that we should be paying so much more for the 'history of the brand'.  It seems very close to the idea of 'it depends on the name on the dial.' I wouldn't be in a hurry to buy a 'name'. If the history of the brand equates to a much better watch, fine but I still wonder why so many watches are made of the same parts - famous name or no famous name.

The specs on paper aren't everything, there's finishing as you said, craftsmanship, even design and of course also a premium you pay with established brands. But even when looking at specifications alone you have to be careful. Specs can lie, not all 316L stainless steel is the same quality of steel.

Is a £1000 watch £500 better than a £500 one? That's hard to say really, it highly depends on the watch and more importantly you.

To me, diminishing returns start around $1,000. You can get a very nice watch for $1,000-$1,500. Beyond that, in my opinion, it's just about finishing details and name prestige (and technological advances in some cases). Once you get to that point, specs are usually pretty similar.

The problem with sub $500 watches for me is quality concerns. You can find watches with great specs on paper for $300 or less, but there's a much higher chance you'll get one with a defect or assembly error, etc.

If a cheaper watch has all the same parts as an expensive one, where is the craftsmanship? If the movement in a cheaper watch is the same as the movement in an expensive one, we aren't looking at too many opportunities for craftsmanship, except in terms of the case. And...I presume that you can buy cases, ready made, from lots of companies. 

I'm really not trying to be difficult here. I am genuinely interested in how these things work - in terms of my current collection and my future purchases. I just hope we aren't buying 'labels'.

can you give me an example about that particular model?

The diminishing returns start around $100. At that price you'll get a watch that tells the time and will last with minimal service.

The rest depends on how sparkly you want it, whether the history will make you feel like Steve McQueen, the brand will make your neighbor turn a shade of green with envy, or whether it matters to you that the dial was hand-painted by Japanese artisans using an ink recipe from the Azuchi-Momoyama Period.

You are getting at the value of a watch as jewelry. Mechanically, a $200 to $500 Japanese/Chinese/Microbrand watch can look and feel an awful lot like at $10,000 Rolex. The Rolex will perhaps be more durable, but consider $20 to $100 Casio and G-Shock watches the standard for real-world durability.

Some of the jewelry cost of watches pertains to expensive metals, diamonds, sapphire cases, etc. A lot of the cost follows from leasing expensive boutiques, hiring expensive engineers, hiring persuasive sales staff, and running expensive ads. Many watchmakers are located in Switzerland, and it's one of the most expensive places to live in the world.

For assessing cost of production, check out the Watchfinder & Co plus Jenni Elle comparison videos of the Hong Kong master fakes (e.g., 10,000 Euro vs. 700 Euro). The fakers are so good that you must use a microscope and open the case to check the movement and serial number. Even the movements have fake facades. Panerai has run into trouble for not being able to identify its own genuine production pieces versus fakes.

Bottom line: Human senses start to fail certainly before $1,000US with mainstream Rolex-Omega-Breitling-type watches. Differences in details and finishing can generally be spotted either by eye or with a microscope. [Do you care?] Beyond that, prices follows from the cost of rare and exotic builds, metals, diamonds, and mostly marketing.

I‘ve heard people have the same query regarding the trophy level of one’s partner.

Well said…

Diminishing returns for "time telling" start at $0 if you have a cell phone.  If you don't have a cell phone because...  you're the weirdest f*cking person who has ever lived, then diminishing returns for "time telling" start at $2.89, as that's the price of this watch at Walmart...

Beyond "time telling," it is all relative.  Someone can spend $1M on a watch, and might experience ZERO diminishing returns, as that person may personally get as much utility on dollar 1,000,000 spent as dollar 999,999 spent on that watch.

Someone else can spend $3.39 and feel like, "Goddammit!!!  Why did I waste 50 extra cents on this stupid brown colored watch, when I could have gotten that black one for $2.89???  I won't be able to sleep tonight for having wasted those 50 cents!!!"

****

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Lot of factors at play here even just talking wages for watchmakers is going to be a huge determining factor for overall price even if components are all the ”same”, which they probably aren’t. For example, labor costs in Germany are going to be multiples of what it would be in other countries for watchmakers, which is going to balloon the price from the start before you even start making the watch.  Seems like a stressful way to enjoy watches 😅

OMFG this💯💯💯💯💯💯

I think it's really dangerous to try and find value in watches.  The most technically capable, complicated watch in the world is made by a tech company and costs a couple hundred dollars.  You can get the time for free from your phone as well as a rousing game of snake.

Ultimately, watches are the value you determine they have and no more.  Some people want to feel like Steve McQueen.  Some people like telling the time in 7 different timezones.  Some people just like not having to pull their cellphones out to tell the time. 

It's too personal a question to have a general answer.

I think you get diminishing returns once you go above the price of the cheapest watch with the specification you are looking for. Many new collectors these days are very driven by price & specs, the 'value proposition' so to speak. A growing number gravitate towards Chinese brands for this reason. I would argue that specs aren't everything, higher end watches tend to have better original design, proportions & finishing. For example I have a Lorier Neptune & a BB58. The Lorier is great for the money, now is the BB58 worth 5x the price, probably not. However it's more finely made, better designed & better finished. Bottom line is it feels more 'special' than the Lorier & it's how a watch makes you feel that matters at the end of the day, as silly as that sounds! Hope this helps 

I think that the point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in varies from person to person based on a combination of their financial situation and what they value in a watch.

When my kids were young, and I was struggling to pay off a mortgage, I probably wouldn't have been able to justify the difference between a $1,000 watch and a $500 watch, since I had so many other more important things to do with that money. At that point in my life, my financial position dictated that price was one of the most important factors in any purchase decision. Over the years, my financial situation is much different, and I'm now able to place more emphasis on the quality of a product, and less emphasis on the cost, so that point of diminishing returns tends to be considerably higher for me than it was years ago.

It’s not just about the components (materials, movements, dial, hands, etc), it’s about the whole package. I agree that towards the middle of the spectrum things can seem seem kind of arbitrary, but to illustrate my point, look at “similar” watches from the ends of the spectrum. Handle a Vostok diver and compare it with a modern Omega Seamaster Diver 300M. Or look at a Timex Weekender, and then pick an Oris Pointer Date or Rolex DateJust. Even if there was no branding or price tags, which watch would you choose based on “quality?”

I am not denying that Watches are jewelry and are emotional purchases, or that the law of diminishing returns is certainly at work, but I do not think that high horology is necessarily BS. The nicest watches I’ve handled in person do not photograph that well, but their quality and style were undeniably impressive compared to lower priced alternatives, in my opinion.

For me, anything more expensive than a Scurfa.

Honorable mention to the GShock 5600 that I got for $28 on Amazon that went 14 years on its original battery (and was the only watch I trusted whenever I needed to throw one down from my 4th floor deck to my daughter playing outside).

Diminishing returns don't matter to collectors on this forum. We value/ obsess/ over the smallest things (whether b/c of history, marketing, status or other intangibles (love this word). 

Who else would spend thousands of dollars on a tool watch like a Diver that we never intend to take diving (its tooly purpose) and actually baby and treat like a precious item worrying about getting anything other than minimal surface scratches (red badges of courage for desk divers) and would die if it ever got a gouge or real damage like my Dad's take to work at the chemical plant in the 1960s watch (which I wish he still had because I remember him wearing that watch covered in scratches and spots).

My wife understands and tolerates my hobby as "man jewelry" which I acknowledge that it is in exchange for continued purchase support. Is an 18k gold Tiffany bracelet worth more than one from Zales/ less than from Cartier?

casio at different price tiers. Roughly $20,$100,$500 and $2000 (once upon a time at retail) If I choose the first gshock better the last 3 watches would all feature pretty much the same module. All great watches. All do basically the same job, I would happily own them all. Price going up with better materials and more human input. I’m sure profit margin going up to, but overall profit balanced by numbers sold.

We really are just buying labels in the above $1500 area. 

 I would recommend getting one which reflects you. 

One you would love to look at, but have no problem to buy again, if gets lost or stolen. 

May be I would do some digging into manufacturers details to know a bit "who am I wearing". 

Cost / movement / design / dial - who cares, if you like it that's enough.

Yes some companies may charge a bit extra "for nothing" but If they offer something none other does, its no shame to pay them for it.

Its not an investment, its a pleasure, with a tiny bit of function :)

You’ll never find a satisfactory answer to your questions on spec sheets or on a forum… you’ll need to spend proper time with a £1000 watch on your wrist to ‘get it’. 

That craftsmanship is really in the details that don’t make onto a spec sheet. The bevels on a case finish. The quality and amount of anti-reflective on the sapphire. The applied markers / texture on the dial. The regulation of a movement. Etc. etc. Two watches with identical specs could vary massively on these dimensions and more, when you experience them in the metal. 

Genuinely the best thing you could do is drop a grand on an Oris, a Sinn or a Longines VHP seeing as you’re into quartz. And then spend six months with it. interacting with it daily and having time to absorb the details will get you to the nirvana you seek. 

And if you can’t justify / hate it after six months, sell it on for a £250 “loss” and there you go, youve paid the price of an affordable watch for six months with something premium that either confirmed or changed your biases. 

🍻

As several others have stated, the returns are in the eye of the beholder.

A YouTuber (I Like Watches IIRC) did a macro shot of the steel bracelet of a San Martin and a Grand Seiko side by side and the finishing was very comparable. Few hundred dollars versus a few thousand dollars and Grand Seiko are world class in finishing. This is NOT to fault the finishing of Grand Seiko, it’s the cheaper watch that has exceptional finishing for the price.

Quartz is more accurate than automatic, but generally much cheaper. 

A G-Shock is in many ways arguably objectively superior as a timepiece compared to the vast majority of luxury watches. It’s much tougher, has been to space, can snorkel and dive, is cheaper, more accurate, has light, alarms, dual time, can be solar, etc.

You have to think about what you are personally interested in and what you like. Don’t think that more expensive is necessarily any better, it could easily be objectively worse. So don’t go up in price, unless the more expensive piece “speaks” to you.

Given what you are considering, I think that you should maybe take a look at the Baltic Aquascaphe. It’s an automatic retro diver that you can also use as a sports or dress watch, especially if you change the strap to suit the occasion. It’s around 750’ish USD. I think it’s very tasteful and versatile. That being said, it’s of course completely wrong if you don’t like retro divers.

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t see that you wanted a quartz. Some posts were added while I was responding.

Edit 2: Tissot has the PRX both in quartz and automatic and the integrated bracelet on that is very nicely done. Less than 1K, but I very much doubt that 1K or 1.5K is going to be a guarantee for better finishing. 🤷‍♂️

Personally I just looked at what features I wanted, saw that the watches with those features often cost less than $500, and set that as my arbitrary spending limit. No regrets so far.

I didn't get my first cell phone until about 10 months ago. Can I please be included in your category: "If you don't have a cell phone because...  you're the weirdest f*cking person who has ever lived..."?

I'm only 10 months late for inclusion. 😜

Somewhere between $250 and $500.   After that,  generally,  quality does not improve greatly. 

There are a lot of little things that make a difference as you go up in price.  Each may have little impact individually but as a whole, they add up to a very different product and experience.

I don’t care for the feel of winding and setting my wife’s Steinhart.  The crown feels loose, hard to get into position and inaccurate.  Other manufacturers also use similar ETA movements but the higher end brands will finish each gear better, tighten up the slop and regulate the time.  On paper, they are both ETA but one looks and operates objectively better.  On paper, they look the same.

The same is true about small details throughout the watch.  The bracelet edge may get a smoother finish for comfort.  The clasp may be machined to a tighter spec.  The transition from crystal to bezel may be a tighter tolerance.  It’s a million things that add up to a more satisfying user experience.  Yet it won’t show up on paper.  It might not even be evident on a test fitting.  It may not show up until months of ownership when you notice and say ”I get it now”. 

@HotWatchChick69 nailed it on diminishing returns... Most luxury watches are built to a high standard, but they are also status items and can charge a premium.

A watch has always been a tool to me, not a status item. However, as I've gotten older, I've supplemented my legible/accurate/durable quartz watches (dive, field, chrono, dress) with vintage-style legible/durable automatic/mechanical watches (dive, field) ... mostly for nostalgia and fashion. With respect to diminishing returns, I am decidedly at the value end. I own watches from Casio, Timex, Invicta, Seiko, and Victorinox... and don't believe I've ever paid more than $100 for a watch.

I was about to complain about the clasp on my Steinhart Ocean ones, but I realised the clasp on my Longines Hydroconquest isn’t any better and the movements are practically like-for-like. Longines has the name and that’s about it. Intangibles - we’re throwing money after intangibles. 😂👌