What’s The Story Here? (Collecting, Submariners, And “Alternatives”)
I was watching a video debating the age old (for whatever reason) question of “What Would James Bond REALLY Wear” and the speaker had good point: The context matters. In 1962, Rolex was not, he pointed out, a status brand. It was a forward thinking, design innovating, relative newcomer. And this was representative of the Bond character. In 2024 the context would be different, and thus would not fit who we know Bond to be.
I’ll take this one step further -
In my collecting journey, I have come to look at watches as STORIES (which is sort of my catchall word for the context of the watch plus the narrative promise it makes) When I consider wearing a watch for the day, or buying one, I ask, “Which story do I want to wear today? What do I feel like, and which of these things is going to help drop me into that place when I look down at it?”
Let’s say you have an Explorer. The STORY there is easy to identify because it’s baked into the watch: You’re a mountaineer. You’re brave. You’re sporty but elegant.
How about a G-Shock 5600? You’re going to get dirty, bang into things. You have an eye on technology and Japanese innovation, but it’s there to serve you in a utilitarian task.
Obviously, there are the stories the manufacturers sell us, and the ones we internalize, the stories we tell ourselves. And to me, that’s what makes this hobby so magic and personal.
But here’s where I’m stuck, and how we tie this to the true definition of “ALTERNATIVES”
For years now I have been drawn to the legendary Rolex Submariner. It’s pull is undeniable to me.
BUT
I also know it’s just not for me. Financially, it’s unrealistic at best, but more importantly, what Rolex, and that watch in particular HAS BECOME is unattractive to me. That is not a story I want to tell others, or myself. The glitz, the status, the endorsement of capitalism, that ain’t me.
So
When I ask you, watch community, WHAT ARE THE BEST ROLEX SUBMARINER ALTERNATIVES? Please understand I am not asking, “How can I make people think I am wearing a Sub?” I went through my AliEx phase and I do believe it’s behind me. But now I am truly trying to find the STORY of the Sub, boil its appeal down to its essence, and find the watch that offers that in today’s world.
What is the appeal? Dependability. Rugged but beautiful. It’s tough, but not in a vulgar way. It has quirk and innovation, but isn’t weird. It’s a serious watch, but doesn’t take itself too seriously perhaps. As I’ve previously stated, I think the appropriate price range for this kind of thing is around $1,500 (the 1960's Sub price adjusted for inflation). Which so far has led me to the SPB143 - but I’m still not sure.
It’s an ongoing quest (these discussions with you all, and myself are the fun of it for me) and I don’t know if we’ll solve it today, but I would love to hear your thoughts.
What is the story of the Submariner?
Where can we get that today?
(images via google)
No idea what day it is.
A very well reasoned and nuanced piece! I would say either a Tudor black bay, used for the price you want or a Longines Hydroconquest new for around $1500 or so. Good writing and good luck! I also feel the same about the Submariner as you.
I'd actually argue the alternative could be the:
Tudor FXD
Sangin Instruments Kinetic II
Sēl Omnidiver
Sinn EZM
Wolbrook/Douglas Professional Skindiver II
Elliot Brown Beachmaster
Elliot Brown Holton Pro
Marathon GSAR
Marathon SSNAV
Omega Seamaster
Or
Any diver with a bezel, if sticking with analog.
I'd also argue that in a lot of ways any analog is better than a digital.
Backlights require either an additional hand to activate, or sometimes a specific wrist tilt, which never works when you want, but does when you don't.
Analog is just easier to read at a quick glance, without much movement or using another hand, which might be needed or occupado with other tools. YMMV.
https://www.watchesofespionage.com/blogs/woe-dispatch/an-exploration-of-unit-watches-from-the-special-operations-community-tudor
https://www.watchesofespionage.com/blogs/woe-dispatch/omegas-modern-unit-watch-program-frogmen-navy-seals-and-us-secret-service
https://www.watchesofespionage.com/blogs/woe-dispatch/tudors-of-espionage
https://www.watchesofespionage.com/blogs/woe-dispatch/sangin-instruments-the-marine-owned-raider-rolex
Well another historic a Capitan Willard
A very well reasoned and nuanced piece! I would say either a Tudor black bay, used for the price you want or a Longines Hydroconquest new for around $1500 or so. Good writing and good luck! I also feel the same about the Submariner as you.
Thanks! Yes I have a Ranger (close but not a dive and missing the bezel) needless to say I love Tudor so that’s a good option.
Well another historic a Capitan Willard
Classic. A similar but completely different narrative.
I also believe in the books Bond wore an explorer or Datejust (can't remember).
I'd actually argue the alternative could be the:
Tudor FXD
Sangin Instruments Kinetic II
Sēl Omnidiver
Sinn EZM
Wolbrook/Douglas Professional Skindiver II
Elliot Brown Beachmaster
Elliot Brown Holton Pro
Marathon GSAR
Marathon SSNAV
Omega Seamaster
Or
Any diver with a bezel, if sticking with analog.
I'd also argue that in a lot of ways any analog is better than a digital.
Backlights require either an additional hand to activate, or sometimes a specific wrist tilt, which never works when you want, but does when you don't.
Analog is just easier to read at a quick glance, without much movement or using another hand, which might be needed or occupado with other tools. YMMV.
https://www.watchesofespionage.com/blogs/woe-dispatch/an-exploration-of-unit-watches-from-the-special-operations-community-tudor
https://www.watchesofespionage.com/blogs/woe-dispatch/omegas-modern-unit-watch-program-frogmen-navy-seals-and-us-secret-service
https://www.watchesofespionage.com/blogs/woe-dispatch/tudors-of-espionage
https://www.watchesofespionage.com/blogs/woe-dispatch/sangin-instruments-the-marine-owned-raider-rolex
I thought you might come through on this one! I’ll get to googling thanks.
I also believe in the books Bond wore an explorer or Datejust (can't remember).
Right. Ian Fleming wore an Explorer (though if you look at pics of the 1016 on him it looks so light and dainty compared to what we know today)
Forgot about the CWC RN Diver too.
To the question “what would Bond really wear?”, I propose that it would be whatever watch Q gave him with some built in gizmo or function. So we’re looking for Q’s choice, as in what would Q disguise his technology into and give to Bond to wear.
We are all well aware that movie Bond just wears whatever from whoever pays the most. Currently it’s Omega and apparently this crass commercialism separates a lot of people from their money.
What’s the Rolex equivalent today? Probably a Marathon GSAR. Inexpensive, robust, reliable and government service issued.
Really cool perspective! I’m going to keep this in mind.
Don't rule out the SKX007
Really cool perspective! I’m going to keep this in mind.
Good! I find it helps cut through a lot of the noise.
Don't rule out the SKX007
Interesting. Every vintage Seiko I've owned has been bulletproof. I wonder if it would feel "quality" enough to give me that special Sub feeling.
To the question “what would Bond really wear?”, I propose that it would be whatever watch Q gave him with some built in gizmo or function. So we’re looking for Q’s choice, as in what would Q disguise his technology into and give to Bond to wear.
We are all well aware that movie Bond just wears whatever from whoever pays the most. Currently it’s Omega and apparently this crass commercialism separates a lot of people from their money.
What’s the Rolex equivalent today? Probably a Marathon GSAR. Inexpensive, robust, reliable and government service issued.
I mean - it works! I bought that Hamilton Murph partially because of its connection to Interstellar. I did sell it, though!
https://yema.com/products/yema-superman-steel-cmm-10-11-13-36-zn-u6
Yema Superman
It's a nice one. I do believe @Orontius_Fineus has the Superman as his Submariner "Archetype" as he puts it.
It's a nice one. I do believe @Orontius_Fineus has the Superman as his Submariner "Archetype" as he puts it.
There is something very classic about it. If it was Swiss it would be at least twice the price. I can’t think of anything Swiss that falls in to your criterior.
There is something very classic about it. If it was Swiss it would be at least twice the price. I can’t think of anything Swiss that falls in to your criterior.
I'm open to other countries (including Japan, obviously) it's more about mythology and quality than old guard technology gatekeeping.
Who says it didn't? It sure isn't what I meant to imply. It certainly did get more expensive (there is no way around that), a Submariner does not cost 3500$ after all. What I was going at is that the answer to "how expensive it is" will depend on what currency you use and what percentile of income you compare it against. You are not wrong, it did get disproprotionately more expensive relative to the median income, which arguably also makes it more of status symbol, true, but "average Joe" was never Rolex's target market. Rolex watches weren't like screwdrives or wrenches, no matter how often we call them "tool" watches.
Whatever the price equiavlent, Rolex were held in high regard and considered "nice" watches by the public. This is ultimately why I said that the closest thing is still the Rolex of today, due to the branding and oublic perception, not the price. Feel free to suggest something better, I am happy to be wrong 😀
My misunderstanding
Your idea of "Stories" really resonated with me and I now have to think what to do with my watches that don't seem to tell a story that resonates with me 😂
Put Bond aside, your STORIES of Sub alternative remind me of Sinn EZMs except that they may look too serious.
Your idea of "Stories" really resonated with me and I now have to think what to do with my watches that don't seem to tell a story that resonates with me 😂
Put Bond aside, your STORIES of Sub alternative remind me of Sinn EZMs except that they may look too serious.
Thanks! I bet those watches have stories that you just haven't articulated to yourself yet.
Great pic, cool watch! I'm more of a Jason Bourne / Ethan Hunt guy anyway, I just thought the Bond thing was a good way into this discussion.
Just watched a video by the always great "This Watch That Watch" about the various 62 Mas options and he brought up an excellent word to describe the SPB143's appeal that I think applies to the 1960's Submariner story: EVERYMAN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtoFZe9PUxo&list=WL&index=18&t=699s
Have you considered the Seamaster 300 “heritage’. It a fantastic watch with none of the hype or baggage. This really resonated with me. I’ve wanted a polar explorer since I was a kid and first saw the 16570 in a magazine but I have so many reservations….. least of which is that my local AD has deemed me unworthy to purchase one.
Funny, I have never paid attention to Tag (beyond vintage Heuer chronos) but they just came on my radar after watching "Slow Horses" and noticing the Aquaracer alarm that the hero wears.
That is a nice tag.i used to love tag,have two of them,purchased a long time ago.I feel ETA movements are better than what they use now.Thanks swatch.Slow horses looks good,wanna check it out.
This is exactly the kind of post that makes me appreciate Watch Crunch.
To me watches are all about the stories you associate with it and yes I too have thought about what would James Bond wear.
What I feel a major miss is on the Sub of Bond's wrist is the fact it doesn't have a second time zone. Bond's a spy and need to be in contact with MI6 whenever he gets hold of important information. The battery of his phone is too importand to be using it for anything other than texting and calling
A quick glance at his wrist reveals, 3 am local time, 5 pm in London. M is surely still at the office, better make that call about those warheads now, also I hope she forgives me for wrecking that Aston Martin I owned less than a day. Ah well.
Anyway what was the time in London again.
Glances down:
So yes a gmt would be my choice.
Dont own any other gmt's but any with a solid build will do. The Longines is my favourite but honestly there are so many good gmt's on the market now. Spoiled for choice.
Great post! And a great question to ponder. On another note it's little sad to think Bond still would pick the same watch after 60+ years (as many here have suggested). I guess it says something about the staying power and build quality of a Rolex, but on the flip side it feels a little like stagnation.
Have you considered the Seamaster 300 “heritage’. It a fantastic watch with none of the hype or baggage. This really resonated with me. I’ve wanted a polar explorer since I was a kid and first saw the 16570 in a magazine but I have so many reservations….. least of which is that my local AD has deemed me unworthy to purchase one.
Nice watch, I will give it a second look. I have a Lorier Neptune that is similar and I'm thinking of letting it go...
That is a nice tag.i used to love tag,have two of them,purchased a long time ago.I feel ETA movements are better than what they use now.Thanks swatch.Slow horses looks good,wanna check it out.
Slow Horses is a lot of fun! Definitely give it a watch, great balance of humor and genuine spy intrigue.
This is exactly the kind of post that makes me appreciate Watch Crunch.
To me watches are all about the stories you associate with it and yes I too have thought about what would James Bond wear.
What I feel a major miss is on the Sub of Bond's wrist is the fact it doesn't have a second time zone. Bond's a spy and need to be in contact with MI6 whenever he gets hold of important information. The battery of his phone is too importand to be using it for anything other than texting and calling
A quick glance at his wrist reveals, 3 am local time, 5 pm in London. M is surely still at the office, better make that call about those warheads now, also I hope she forgives me for wrecking that Aston Martin I owned less than a day. Ah well.
Anyway what was the time in London again.
Glances down:
So yes a gmt would be my choice.
Dont own any other gmt's but any with a solid build will do. The Longines is my favourite but honestly there are so many good gmt's on the market now. Spoiled for choice.
Thanks so much for the thoughtful comment! Great theory.
The Longines is beautiful. I have never really considered GMTs to be honest, maybe that will lead to another few months of spiraling and then a post 🙂
Just realized - I think the original video that sent me down this rabbit hole was by @pete.mcconvill.watches