IWTF? The 2023 IWC Ingenieur is priced way out of its league.
⚠ Watchbase has updated its datasheet for the 32xxx calibre family - find their retraction listed in the notes and on their website at the link provided.
This week, at Watches and Wonders 2023, Richemont's IWC presented the Ingenieur - a reintroduction of the 1975 IWC Genta-designed integrated bracelet sport-watch in steel that runs on a customised ETA-2824-2 architecture, which is identical to the Sellita SW200.
Last year, at Watches and Wonders 2022, Richemont's Baume et Mercier presented the Riviera - a reintroduction of the 1973 Genta style integrated bracelet sport-watch in steel that runs on a Sellita SW200, which is identical to the ETA-2824-2.
IWC Ingenieur IW328901: € 13,000
Baume et Mercier Riviera 10621: € 2,900
Yes, the movement is not all that makes a watch, but considering that on paper these two watches are indistinguishable, is the rest of the difference between the two actually worth € 10,000?
🤷♀
Edit 20230402
for those observing IWC listing the "in-house" movement 32111 on their product page, please note that that is an internal reference number for a calibre series developed with ValFleurier starting with the ETA 2824-A2 as the base*1. It is not a bad thing, but it is not fully in-house, and at 13k it impacts on a price evaluation.
ref: https://watchbase.com/iwc/caliber/32110
Edit 20230404
While other sources still cite the whole 32xxx family being formed from ETA-2824-A2 as a base, Watchbase, after contact with IWC, has stated as follows:
"This entry was previously listed as being based on ETA 2892; after contact with IWC, we have removed this as according to IWC these movements do not have the same parts, same specifications or even same dimensions as the ETA calibres in question."
Nec spe, nec metu. 🇮🇹🇦🇺
The better question is; Is the IWC name worth that much to you?
Richmont is being smart, they are offering similar products at different price levels to cater to different customers. The person shopping for a $13K IWC likely isn't interested in a $3K B&M, at the same time the person shopping for a $3K B&M isn't their target audience for a $13K IWC.
It's worth it for someone who wants to buy an IWC.
It gets worse if you compare it with the Baume & Mercier Riviera Models which retail for just under €4000. They have a bespoke movement (possibly in house, but definitely in group) with a 120 hour power reserve.
I do agree that IWC has some brand cachet, but they are shooting way above their price point with the Ingenieur. I would say their logic is that they hope that there is a market for some one who will see this as a bargain Royal Oak alternative. Personally I think it is a cash grab that has missed the wave (both the integrated genta hype wave and the April 2022 market spike). I expect to see these available with heavy discounts before the end of the year.
Agreed; that's a lot of money for a Seiko Coutura homage
Ingenieur should be priced around 7-8k max.
For this budget, I would rather go in Laureato territory
Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I'm sure there is a market that IWC are targeting with this release. Evidently, it will exclude a lot of us, from a pricing perspective. This is the way things are. We need to adjust to this.
Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I'm sure there is a market that IWC are targeting with this release. Evidently, it will exclude a lot of us, from a pricing perspective. This is the way things are. We need to adjust to this.
I'm in the market for an integrated watch. 12k is okay for me if it has a well finished movement with a display caseback, a quick change system and microadjust. Since the new IWC misses all these things I'm not getting one.
So the people that want value for money aren't getting it and the people with money to burn will just buy an AP or VCO. Idk... I don't see a big market.
Agreed; that's a lot of money for a Seiko Coutura homage
Those 2 models were first released in the early 70s, more like Seiko is their homage 😅
I love the Ingenieur and have a soft spot for integrated bracelets, but I agree that this is an overpriced watch. They lean heavily on the name and the anticipation of the new model. If I buy one it will be an old model on the grey market.
Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I'm sure there is a market that IWC are targeting with this release. Evidently, it will exclude a lot of us, from a pricing perspective. This is the way things are. We need to adjust to this.
Yeah I agree, however I own both the nautilus and RO, and considered myself a Genta fanboy, I still find this watch to be overpriced. 🥲I seriously wanna know who their targets are. With that pricing you can buy a Laureato or octo finissimo
I'm in the market for an integrated watch. 12k is okay for me if it has a well finished movement with a display caseback, a quick change system and microadjust. Since the new IWC misses all these things I'm not getting one.
So the people that want value for money aren't getting it and the people with money to burn will just buy an AP or VCO. Idk... I don't see a big market.
What you say makes perfect sense.
Perhaps this is part of a larger repositioning of the brand?? The capital required to build, develop and support a SKU - I don't think businesses like IWC make decisions to go down this path and price things the way they do, without having an end audience in mind.
We might be able to see this, but I'm sure there is one there.
It's worth it for someone who wants to buy an IWC.
yes but i think they are clearly milking the g.genta connection/history and the iwc name
most people outside watches associate them with their fliegers amd maybe portugeser anyway
yes but i think they are clearly milking the g.genta connection/history and the iwc name
most people outside watches associate them with their fliegers amd maybe portugeser anyway
They are in the business to make money, not to please and appease us. They are free to set a price and we are free to buy or skip. Personally I think that paying this kind of money for that watch makes very little sense, but it just mean that I'm not the kind of customer they are targeting.
They are in the business to make money, not to please and appease us. They are free to set a price and we are free to buy or skip. Personally I think that paying this kind of money for that watch makes very little sense, but it just mean that I'm not the kind of customer they are targeting.
true, true, i'm not in their ballpark either it's just my opinion of the ingenieur
What you say makes perfect sense.
Perhaps this is part of a larger repositioning of the brand?? The capital required to build, develop and support a SKU - I don't think businesses like IWC make decisions to go down this path and price things the way they do, without having an end audience in mind.
We might be able to see this, but I'm sure there is one there.
They are definitely trying to reposition the brand higher, I just think they needed to do it with a proper statement watch like Grand Seiko did with the White Birch.
This IWC Ingenieur is trying to be one but for me it just doesn't do enough. Maybe they're planning to release a 2nd generation in a few years with a fancier movement and get it up closer to 20k competing with the Overseas but for me that would be a no as well.
I have seen a few people talk about this watch being over priced but iwc is an expensive brand and it’s in like with all of their other offerings. I’d you think it’s overpriced so is most of their catalog it’s just what their watches cost. A base level iwc cost more than a base level omega for comparison
LOL. Yes, I think most of their catalog is overpriced. This new one is egregiously overpriced.
My multi brand AD (Rolex, Omega, Tudor, Breitling and more) keeps pushing me towards IWC. It’s pretty easy for me to resist. I don’t think there is anything particularly unique or compelling in their ho-hum pilot watches and grossly oversized dress watches that justifies the price.
Yeah I do like their watches but I’m not about to sell off multiple other watches just to afford a big pilot. Tell him you will get an IwC after he gets you a Batman
Ingenieur should be priced around 7-8k max.
For this budget, I would rather go in Laureato territory
totally with you on the Laureato!
Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I'm sure there is a market that IWC are targeting with this release. Evidently, it will exclude a lot of us, from a pricing perspective. This is the way things are. We need to adjust to this.
Who are they targeting well perhaps those who can't afford a AP RO, but want a integrated bracelet watch from that era but without the stigma of people saying oh its homage of the Genta designed RO (see Nivada Grenchen's recently re-issue of their 1977 watch the F77)- as the Ingenieur is an actual Genta design of the 1970's era!
yes but i think they are clearly milking the g.genta connection/history and the iwc name
most people outside watches associate them with their fliegers amd maybe portugeser anyway
Most people within the watch enthusiast community associate them with pilot watches. Most people outside the watch community have no idea IWC exists and, if they are aware, they don't understand why anyone would buy an IWC for any amount of money while the Apple Watch exists.
The question to me isn't so much who buys the IWC rather it's who actually buys a Baume & Mercier?
So many things wrong with your argument — movement is 32111 and your link is for the 32110, not based on ETA 2824 but the 2892, not comparable to a SW200 as the movement is highly modified including a silicon escapement produced by another manufacturer. Just wanted to clarify some facts… even your source walks back their ETA claims here:
So many things wrong with your argument — movement is 32111 and your link is for the 32110, not based on ETA 2824 but the 2892, not comparable to a SW200 as the movement is highly modified including a silicon escapement produced by another manufacturer. Just wanted to clarify some facts… even your source walks back their ETA claims here:
The link to the calibre 32110 datasheet was supplied as that to 32111 simply listed 32110 as its base for development, given that 32110 was listed as being based on ETA a direct link skipping one redundant and confusing passage was inserted in the footnotes.
Now that Watchbase has corrected their datasheet, and I thank you for the info on the update, I have amended the notes with the new information.
Let's get the movements right. The new Riviera Baumatic uses a BM13-1975A and the new Ingy uses a 32111. These are apparently the same movement, provided by Val Fleurier and decorated in-house.
While the movements have the same dimensions as an ETA2892 (and a Selita SW200 for that matter) they have significantly different architecture (including silicon - aka 'plastic' - pallet and escapement wheel and a free-sprung balance, so they're actually closer to a Powermatic80 in that way). This is not, by most accounts, a clone of an ETA but Val Fleurier did use the ETA as sort of a starting point:
This makes no difference to the fundamental point here: the IWC is, IMO, grossly overpriced compared to the Riviera and, more importantly, the Chopard Alpine Eagle, Bulgari Octo Finessimo and Zenith Defy which would be on my list for $10-15k watches well ahead of the IWC (this assumes I've suffered a severe enough blow to the head to change my personality into one that would not spend that money on a Blancpain Fifty Fathoms). Will IWC sell every single one they make? Certainly. Just not to me.
these are the same I think.
Does Genta heritage go for nothing nowadays? I think the price is okay given the modern Ingeniuer has its roots from Genta's own design. In this category of integrated bracelet sports warch, IMO the Ingenieur's only competitors are the AP RO, PP Nautilus, +- Octo Finissimo (please correct me if I'm wrong!). All other watches mentioned as competitors (e.g. GP Laureato, Chopard Alpine Eagle) can only claim to be homages instead of direct descendants of Genta design and are not true competitrs... I think the Ing targets those who want a watch with true Genta heritage yet without the pomp and flair associated with brands like AP and PP... I admit I am one of them and I think the price is justifiable in this regard.
I have yet to see the watches in person but have heard the finishing is great and the bracelet solid. Solid case back complements the tool watch aesthetic much better than a see through case back as well. Also as someone who has waited years for IWC to finally have better movements, I am totally ok with the in-group movement. But would definitely love to see IWC move forward on developing anti magnetic hairsprings instead of relying on the soft iron cage.
And how has no one mentioned the Grade 5 titanium Ingeniuer priced $3k above its steel counterpart? It's a no-brainer for me. How many titanium integrated bracelet watches are there in the market? 🤣 Czapek Antarctique Dark Sector, A Lange & Sohne titanium Odysseus, Zenith Defy Classic, Oris Propilot X... IWC brings something forward with its own signature and heritage in this category.
Kudo's to IWC for a great design! Can't wait to see the watches in person!!
Does Genta heritage go for nothing nowadays? I think the price is okay given the modern Ingeniuer has its roots from Genta's own design. In this category of integrated bracelet sports warch, IMO the Ingenieur's only competitors are the AP RO, PP Nautilus, +- Octo Finissimo (please correct me if I'm wrong!). All other watches mentioned as competitors (e.g. GP Laureato, Chopard Alpine Eagle) can only claim to be homages instead of direct descendants of Genta design and are not true competitrs... I think the Ing targets those who want a watch with true Genta heritage yet without the pomp and flair associated with brands like AP and PP... I admit I am one of them and I think the price is justifiable in this regard.
I have yet to see the watches in person but have heard the finishing is great and the bracelet solid. Solid case back complements the tool watch aesthetic much better than a see through case back as well. Also as someone who has waited years for IWC to finally have better movements, I am totally ok with the in-group movement. But would definitely love to see IWC move forward on developing anti magnetic hairsprings instead of relying on the soft iron cage.
And how has no one mentioned the Grade 5 titanium Ingeniuer priced $3k above its steel counterpart? It's a no-brainer for me. How many titanium integrated bracelet watches are there in the market? 🤣 Czapek Antarctique Dark Sector, A Lange & Sohne titanium Odysseus, Zenith Defy Classic, Oris Propilot X... IWC brings something forward with its own signature and heritage in this category.
Kudo's to IWC for a great design! Can't wait to see the watches in person!!
Personally I would say no, Genta heritage counts for nothing. The man didn't invent the bracelet and even if he did I wouldn't pay extra. I'll start by saying I really like the watch and will probably buy it at some point. I doubt at full price but still...
But okay, let's put that aside. I still think your reasoning is flawed. The Ingenieur may have been designed by Gerald Genta but the product was not popular. I think a must for anything iconic is some degree of of popularity to the point where I can't consider the Ingenieur iconic, not at all. It sold so poorly that IWC got rid of the design altogether a few years back and restarted it now with a fully revamped product. I think part of the RO and Nautilus appeal is that they could remain virtually unchanged and still be relevant, but if this IWC said Longines it would totally pass as a "new" design because a) nobody knows WTF an Ingenieur watch is and b) it really isn't that similar to the original so any Gerald Genta heritage it had is at least partially lost... which is a good thing because we established that the original was a dog and wears like a brick due to poor ergonomic design (!!!!) likely to be blame on GG (and all subsequent iterations were apparently less than stellar too, see resale value).
The movement is a weird one, Baume & Mercier use the same and their watches are fairly anti-magnetic so this soft iron cage seems a little silly but okay IWC says people want it so why not. Fine. Now they charge 4x as much as for the Riviera with the same movement. IWC is premium, yes, but where it all goes to hell is when I could in principle buy a Mark XX and a Riviera and combine its case/dial with the IWC movement, so the movement doesn't explain it and neither does movement finishing (or else the Mark XX wouldn't exist). You're basically paying for a slightly more complex case/bracelet (which was received so poorly that they already announced they will be offering the quick adjust clasp as an add on) as opposed to a Riviera or Mark XX and the fact that in name the watch is related to a what can arguably be described as not the finest hour of a hyped up designer.
I still like the watch but I like it for what it is and think it should be priced for what it is. Then again I don't really care, I'll pay what the market demands or won't buy if I don't like it enough...
Does Genta heritage go for nothing nowadays? I think the price is okay given the modern Ingeniuer has its roots from Genta's own design. In this category of integrated bracelet sports warch, IMO the Ingenieur's only competitors are the AP RO, PP Nautilus, +- Octo Finissimo (please correct me if I'm wrong!). All other watches mentioned as competitors (e.g. GP Laureato, Chopard Alpine Eagle) can only claim to be homages instead of direct descendants of Genta design and are not true competitrs... I think the Ing targets those who want a watch with true Genta heritage yet without the pomp and flair associated with brands like AP and PP... I admit I am one of them and I think the price is justifiable in this regard.
I have yet to see the watches in person but have heard the finishing is great and the bracelet solid. Solid case back complements the tool watch aesthetic much better than a see through case back as well. Also as someone who has waited years for IWC to finally have better movements, I am totally ok with the in-group movement. But would definitely love to see IWC move forward on developing anti magnetic hairsprings instead of relying on the soft iron cage.
And how has no one mentioned the Grade 5 titanium Ingeniuer priced $3k above its steel counterpart? It's a no-brainer for me. How many titanium integrated bracelet watches are there in the market? 🤣 Czapek Antarctique Dark Sector, A Lange & Sohne titanium Odysseus, Zenith Defy Classic, Oris Propilot X... IWC brings something forward with its own signature and heritage in this category.
Kudo's to IWC for a great design! Can't wait to see the watches in person!!
I get what you mean, but as my previous post above. I do own RO, Nautilus, octo finissimo and even GG’s own brand the Retro sport model . I am GG fanboy. This ingeniuer is beautiful, I saw the real thing at W&W, I really want to love it but I just can’t. The pricing is just not right, jumping fro, 2-3k to 12,000 USD. Of course I am effort this watch but I’ll pass, would rather to spend it on other watch. It’s wayyyyy overpriced. But that’s just me.
But yeah it is effing beautiful, especially the green dial!! If you buy it one day please share 👊🏼
I'm glad I got my iwc before it bit the rolex bug and decided to go yolo on the pricing as well lol.. same goes for the breitling and omega
Adding my 2c. For me a watch is so much more than just what movement it is using. YES looking at the movement alone, the price is very high. But you have to take into account many other aspects like case construction, bracelet design, dial details, the hands etc. Everything contributes to the total package. I do think the watch is somewhat over priced but having handled one at the boutique, there is no doubt that this is a quality watch and feels excellent in hand. This is coming from someone who owns a Patek 5811 and Patek 5968, along with several Rolex. I really felt the IWC was at least equal in feel and finnesse.
Adding my 2c. For me a watch is so much more than just what movement it is using. YES looking at the movement alone, the price is very high. But you have to take into account many other aspects like case construction, bracelet design, dial details, the hands etc. Everything contributes to the total package. I do think the watch is somewhat over priced but having handled one at the boutique, there is no doubt that this is a quality watch and feels excellent in hand. This is coming from someone who owns a Patek 5811 and Patek 5968, along with several Rolex. I really felt the IWC was at least equal in feel and finnesse.
I 100% agree, watches are much more than the movement alone and more than the sum of their components. What surprised many people at the release was IWC's unprecedented hike, especially for a reference that had so much in common with a "cousin" from the same parent company. As per your first hand impression and experience, I would have been very interested if you had also had a chance to handle the Baume Mercier, just to get the pulse on how tangible the other aspects you mention are in comparison between the two.