Fakes?

Here it comes 🌧️

That said, I’m with you (documented) on this one.

You are not alone in that take. They are inexpensive replicas in all but label. They are not for me, but there is a significant portion of the community that cannot afford the original but do not want to buy actual replicas. To me, I embrace their passion, even if I personally do not like the watch(es).

On a positive note the San Martin has less text.

No, they are not blatant fakes.

This is an example of an "homage watch". These seek to provide an affordable alternative to expensive and recognisable watches for customers unwilling or unable to pay for the expensive original. They are distinguished from fakes or copies or counterfeits by notable branding which DOES NOT pretend to be the original.

I’d call them ‘replicas’ more than fakes. A fake, to me, would be if it had the Tudor logos on there as well. Trying to pass it off as a Tudor when it is not.

People enjoy these though, and there is nothing wrong with that.

That San Martin is no more original than this post. But it doesn't stop them like it didn't stop you. If you bothered to search "homage" in the search bar I'm sure you would find plenty of opinions that agree with you.

They get "nice watch" comment because they are nice watches. SM is pretty university known for good build quality. Plus, while it's clearly a 1:1 copy, it's a copy of a good design. On top of all that WC is all about the warm fuzzies.

It's basically an out let for those who appreciate a Tudor but will never be able to afford it. Are poor people not allowed to enjoy a good design? But I have seen lots of collectors on here who own $3k+ watches who also own SM.

The difference is a fake is labeled as the real deal. An homage may be 1:1 but has it's own label. No one wearing a SM is telling anyone they are wearing a Tudor.

But if it offend you just ignore it.

Have an awesome weekend.

They aren't fake if they don't try to pretend to be something they aren't.

Copy is a more accurate description, and they exist because the original is priced well outside of reach for many.

Yeah, the distinction is between fake and homage. I completely get not liking homage watches, but I don’t think it’s fair to call this a fake. While it copies another watch, it’s not trying to pass itself off as that actual watch.

For me, I don’t wear watches like this. I don’t want people coming up to talk to me about my Tudor when that’s not what I’m wearing. Others feel differently. In the end, there’s room for all of us.

I wouldn’t personally buy a San Martin, Pagani Design, etc, but I also wouldn’t call someone out on it. They know what they bought, and if that’s what they want then who am I to judge? Doesn’t bother me. If it’s a literal fake though I do call it out when I notice it. A few weeks ago I made fun of someone’s “Rolex Submariner” and they deleted their post.

I agree with your message overall, but that San Martin is obviously trying to pass itself off as a Pelagos. Not to the wearer, but to people 6ft+ away.

If the IP holders haven't sued to stop them, why does it matter to you?

It’s hard to argue that claim, until you look close, it’s very difficult to distinguish the two. As others have mentioned, there are many posts arguing the morality of this very situation. All I can say is, I doubt anyone is changing their mind about this.

They do bother me, not because they’re “fake” per se, but because there’s no originality possible. I think if brands like San Martin weren’t making ripoffs like this, they could potentially design their own, and those might be great watches! To each their own, but I’ll always prefer an original design that stands on its own.

You also have to think how small the % off people is who actually recognize a Pelagos on someone’s wrist. I know it can feel like a bubble on WC, but in day to day life 9/10 people would have no clue either way.

Let people enjoy designs that are out of reach for most.

“…if that’s what they want then who am I to judge? Doesn’t bother me.” - Me, in this comment section

Lol, I love debating on these kinds of posts.

Let's say hypothetically, one has $300-ish odd US to spend on a watch. They want a blue dial, analog, automatic, steel watch, with good lume, solid movement, functional bracelet, and classic style.

Why? Because they do.

This individual would be hard pressed to find a brand new Seiko at that price point, with the specs of the San Martin. Maybe used, but for a first watch, or a gift to themselves after paying the mortgage, putting food on the table, saving for college, having a good emergency fund of 2+months expenses, paying off the car, etc, they want what they want.

Many, Many, MANY, people will tell this individual, you know nothing, shut up, buy your Casio F-91W, and save your money, just like everyone else. It's "God-tier"dontcha know. Alll the talking heads rave on it, the cool kids love it, and now you can virtue signal you're an "enthusiast", as you save for your grail.

Just saying.

Also @KristianG has a point. Many brands have similiar takes on a specific style/theme of watch.

And one more thing, let's not forget that most enthusiasts will be able to find, wear, and/or recommend microbrands that have similar vibes with out being homage-y.

The ENTIRE rest of the world just wants a good deal and a look. They could care less about the rest.

Anybody interested in watches, and on various watch centric forums, lives in a microcosm of the greater watch wearing public. Our views are not NEARLY as important to anyone who makes/sells watches as we hope they are.

Why don’t we try to identify the ultimate definition? My proposal:

Fake: a replica that includes branding and dial specification of the original

Replica: a close replica of the origina with distinct branding and dial legends of the alternative manufacturer

Hommage: a watch that reminds the original for several aspects but keeps its own identifiable design differences

Does this seems appropriate?

I totally get the argument.

They are 'real' watches though (in my opinion). They can't be 'fake', unless they're a fake something. Like a fake Tudor. But as it doesn't have Tudor on the dial, it's just a real San Martin, that is paying homage to a Tudor.

To me, they're like a cover band. As a fan of the real band, you can get enjoyment out of them. But you know they're not the real thing / not as good. And they're not fooling anyone.

I am perfectly fine with San Martin, Pagani etc. What I do want to highlight though are two dodgy assumptions I see a lot in these homage/clomage/fake debates:

1. “People who buy San Martin, Pagani cannot afford the original.” This is not only untrue in almost all cases, but also very condescending.

2. “You don’t want to be called out, do ya?” I can’t wait for the day someone spots my PD 1701, approaches me and compliments me on my Speedmaster! IRL, someone like that? I’d buy him/her several drinks and talk watches 💪🏻!

I like watches. From Scurfa to GO and from Pagani to VC. Each one has its own merits and things I love about it. Please do not buy a watch because it should project something about you - or the other way around: think you know something about a person because of the watch they are wearing (perhaps excepting MrJones - people wearing a MrJ must be good people, right?).

Yes it's a fake 😂

A homage is in my opinion different. They take inspiration from the design, but make it there own with changes.

This is a just a fake, a cheap copy. However its not pretending to be Tudor and if people want it they should be allowed to buy them. Providing their is no patent infringement, which I'm guessing has lapsed over time.

From my understanding they are built pretty well, but still not on par to the real thing. Never owned one, and don't intend to but each to their own

Written my own comments before seeing this, however this is 💯 % spot on!

I tried sharing a similar rant too in the past but the community here cringes. They love their Paganis and other shady bull...t.

This is very subjective... I don't have anything against San Martins, nobody thinks they're the real thing, and an actual Pelagos is expensive. Many will question if they can justify the spend. And think how many non-Chinese watches are blatant ripoffs of the sub, in particular.

I dipped my toes in these waters by buying a Parnis Kermit on a rubber strap a while ago. It looks lovely, and keeps around plus 10 seconds a day. Rolex hasn't lost out on my custom because I'm never going to buy a real Kermit (and they probably wouldn't sell me one anyway, but that's another discussion gone into endlessly!).

But it gets hardly any wrist-time, because always gnawing at my mind is the thought, "it's a fake, you can't convince yourself otherwise, you know it is...." So I won't be buying any "homage" San Martins, or Paganis, or another Parnis. It just doesn't feel quite right - to me. Others will differ.

So I'm not offering a moral judgement. More a suggestion that this is what you need to think about if you're considering buying a Chinese "homage".

Fake, using the name and symbol. Differen name and symbol homage.

I sometimes find them helpful. Ive purchased homage watches to see how they wear prior to spending substantially more on the original. It allows me to wear it for a bit and decide if I want to take the next step. Afterwards I sell it. Usually for not much less that what time paid. Win, win for me

The way I like to look at it is they are like sports jerseys. Most people where replica versions which are in no way like the authentic ones worn on field, but they are affordable for most people. I don’t have any issue with it, especially when watch collecting can be quite pretentious 🤷🏽‍♂️

I like these definitions. With that said it’s not a fake it’s a replica

I'd also note how it seems to me the only enthusiast arena where there is lots of vitriol going both ways is generally the watch community lol.

Yet this exists in almost every sport/enthusiast community ever.

PSA Dagger vs IWI Masada vs CZ P10 vs Glock vs Shadow Systems

Cap Toe Service Boots

Protland Leather vs Thursday vs Red Wing vs Oak Street Bookmakers vs Whites vs Alden vs Viberg

Etc etc etc

Clone homages are the closest you can get to (legally) replicating the same watch from Tudor, for example.

Are clone homages fake watches? No, not really. Even though the design is pretty much 1 to 1 copy of the real deal, the only difference is the name of the brand, if you wanna try sueing clone homage brands, well it's practically nearly impossible because there are hundreds and hundreds of clone homages in (for example) AliExpress.

Are clone homages a solid choice for people who

can't afford the real deal? Yes, it can be a good way to test drive a watch before pulling the trigger on the real one, whether testing the size and fit and even the visual. It can be used as another way to prevent losing the real deal, used as a substitute when you're out travelling, albeit the same idea can be applied for fake branded watches (fake Rolex, for example).

For the money alone, yea it's quite nice. The QC issues would be apparent depending on the clone homage brand (Pagani Design or San Martin, or any other Chinese brands) but the quality and build are fairly decent.

For me, 1 clone homage is already fine however I personally prefer watches with original designs and good brand history.