Homage Watches. My version of the truth .

I think it's a combination of things, the whole copyright thing seems way more enforced in the guitar world, Gibson especially in recent years have become increasingly aggressive with their copyright and brand protection, hunting down and closing up people attempting to steal their designs. You'll see stuff look similar but with subtle design tweaks to the headstock or body to find the loophole.

It's been said before that brands like Pagani aren't pursued by Rolex as it just isn't worth their money and time, it's like a hydra, shut down one shop and two more will open, hence the 'Pagrne' watches you see, same people and parts, but the risk spread to an additional name.

I think also in the guitar world the prices are different, yes a Gibson or American Fender isn't cheap, but the gap between homages and the real deal is a couple thousand maybe, whereas the gap between an 80 quid Invicta diver compared to the around 10k you'd be paying for a submariner, I think people tend to get more offended with.

As a collector of both I find them very different hobbies, a guitar requires specific knowledge to play and a watch just requires a wrist to sit on!

Some designs have become iconic, like the Submariner and the Datejust, just like a Strat or Les Paul, which have been “copied” for decades. I do not have a problem with those.

But take a relatively new design, say a Tudor BB Ceramic, make minimal modifications to it, for instance only add a date window (because the movement you choose had one) change the color of the text on the dial, change the logo on the crown, eliminate it on the dial and then presto, you have a homage/tribute/ whatever watch, I simply don’t buy it. Sounds like lazy design work and marketing to those who like the look but simply can’t afford the original.

In these cases, tHe artistic effort of the original creator’s design is infringed. It is like a patent if you will; the creator has rights to that for a period of time and others are prohibited from using the design unless licensed. I doubt if any so called homage watches pay any licensing fees to the original designer. Another example: take a Mondrian painting but change the colors but all other elements are the same, and voila, you have your own artwork? Don’t think so.

In my case, I am not “offended” by copies with minimal modifications but to then claim the design as your own, is too much. When was the last time you saw a manufacturer produce a “clone” and give any credit to the original? Buy what you want, wear what you want, but let’s admit what such a watch really is, a copy.

IMHO.

Lol Gibson is bothered! They keep suing everyone and that 'play authentic' campaign 🙄

I know the strat/tele body shapes aren't under trademark, but the headstock is. That's why companies like suhr do what they do.

Did you see the commotion around the PRS silver sky?? People were coming for blood. It was crazy.

I think that it's about the idea of a status symbol that is more important in the watch world (for somebody). Some people are pissed, that a homage watch somehow cheapens their original one. If someone has a Rolex, and you say "nice Invicta" they will kill you.

If someone has a Rolex, and you say "nice Invicta" they will kill you.

Is it bad that I’m actually tempted to try this now?

I'm going to have to think about where I stand on the matter.

I think it's because of the basis on which people buy watches.

People don't always entirely buy a watch due to its design and physical qualities. Rather, a lot of watch enthusiasts put emphasis on the brand and its history when it comes to buying watches. Basically, marketing is a big factor in the watch world.

As such, people value originality in designs and don't like homages, although from what I have seen that depends on the brand as well. A lot of people have a problem with homages from brands like Invicta, San Martin, etc, while not having any issue with homages from brands like Seiko, Casio, etc.

This likely has a strong relevance to what the brands do outside of the homages and the connotation that people get from this. For instance, Invicta does the whole high msrp but always on discount thing and watch enthusiasts tend to not like their original designs. San Martin doesn't really have any history attached to it and only makes a few watches that aren't homages. On the other hand, Seiko and Casio have been around for a long time, have made innovations in the watch world and have plenty of original designs instead of being homage-based.

I don't find them that different actually. I too collect guitars and guitar pedals. In pedal world absolutely everyone copies the tubescreamer but just packages it differently, many still in the recognizable green color.

Fender and Gibson are also expensive sure, but not always more expensive than a copy. Suhr as someone pointed out make Strat and Tele copies, very high quality ones however, worth the same as an American made Fender. There are many guitar equivalents of microbrands that are doing this. In fact in guitar world you usually go to a microbrand to get a more expensive guitar unlike watch world where the product is cheaper for near same quality. Fender and Gibson also have their special crafted guitars selling at a premium to essentially compete with specialized luthiers (think Credor vs H Moser).

In the end I don't find that many people bothered by homages. The ones that are are the same people that only want to "play authentic". Think of how much mockery someone like Mark Agnesi took on for making a hard stance on this. In general, snobbery always exists in a hobby but it is also not well received by many.

All that said, people are not dumb. They can tell flattery from plaigarism. It's up to you how much this offends you. Personally, if I want a sub I'll try to get a sub. If I can't, or don't want to pay, I will build one (I have!). I wouldn't buy a homage only because I have the ability to make my own. But if you like them, as long as you're not pretending it's the original brand, then you do you.

There is a significant different between guitars and watches. When building a guitar, a body, fret, and neck may look similar, but they are the starting point. From there; frets, tuning pegs, pickups, pots, bridges, etc can actually be better than an original. The parts are readily available for all to go after and anyone with a little know how can and does upgrade. It is common for one to pay more for a LP inspired guitar than an original.

When talking homage watches, knock off brands are simply copying the look and adding zero improvement. In every other way they are inferior and using cheaper less quality parts. If someone went out and sourced an a generic case and dial then purchased an original AP movement, hands, bracelet, and clasp, that would be weird, but much closer to what happens to guitars than what happens with watches.

Dammn! That is a nice colorful collection👍

I see what you did there. :-).

I collect for sartorial reasons, among others. I doesn't help matters 💸 that I like shiny objects. 😂

The biggest problem is people having a sliding scale of what/who is ok, not always the greatest attention to detail (ironic) a misunderstanding of the differences between legal/illegal and copyright vs trademark, not to mention not really knowing the full history of things. Rolex itself started in a very similar fashion to ‘homage’ brands.

There’s also a little hint of hysteria based on not knowing where things are made these days, and a tiny dash of dislike of globalisation and even a hint of the old ‘yellow peril’ but for China again now. For some people at any rate.

All of these may be true for some, none of these may be true for some, but then there is also the magnification of opinions via the internet — and ‘homage bad’ ‘Pagani bad’ is a nice swift opinion to pick up.

For the money, of course, they and others are rather good, and that’s a problem for different reasons. Some of the other stuff is teething problems — and if you buy from Amazon, what are you worried about?

It’s complex, but I reckon most people really don’t much care. Some people (me) can’t quite figure out why ‘Pagani Bad, Dan Henry Good’ whilst liking both for different reasons.

Humans like a bit of stratification I guess, squire. No need to get a fender bent.

I buy Pagani Design because of Rolex. I refuse to put up with the ‘Rolex Purchase Game’. I offer no apologies. If I could have just walked into an AD any paid MSRP for the palm dial Datejust, I would have. But I refuse to bend over and take it up the rump for either an AD or the scalpers market. NEVER, EVER.

There is also crazy money in guitars as well within a same brand. I forgot what that PRS special collection was called (wood library or something)

Great point about independent guitar makers using an iconic design to make a better guitar.

Most people think Slash played a Les Paul...nope. He has a huge collection of Les Pauls, but his famous Les Paul-looking guitar is a 1959 replica made by Kris Derrig. That's the guitar that he made bank on.

Bravo! Clear and to the point.

Right on...how many songs are there that use the I-IV-V progression and all its variants...far too many for us to be able to count the number. Well stated.

Which could mean that all I IV V progressions are homages?

This has kind of been my point. People take a design that works and is popular and produce there own versions of it. These versions borrow from the original but don't claim to be the original. My Invicta does not claim to be a Rolex. If it had then I would not have bought it. I would never buy a fake anything as to pass it off as the original is criminal and makes you look a complete ar#ehole.

Well, if I am mistaken, then I apologise for the tone in some of my response — but I was addressing directly what your comment said.

No worrries and someone else replied similar especially in the sense of «pagani bad Dan Henry good »

That was a phrase I took from earlier on in the discussion. I don’t think it means those exact brands . It’s an example. However when taken literally it seems to fall apart as to the points you had highlighted.

It was me that made the initial statement, as a summing up of a commonly stated opinion — and I find it difficult to square holding.

The advantage I would give Dan Henry, is that it’s got a more transparent history. We know it’s one guy who loves watches, designing homages. (We have no idea who is the PD designer, but we know they have a decent sense of humour. Their Speedy-a-like — which initially had many more differences to the original until customer demand came along and the Moonswatch took off — has the model number 1701. Someone knows.) He also has the good sense to keep the price for his model bracketed in what people pay for a watch at the level they are made.

I wouldn’t put Pagani next to the watches they are inspired by, but I would compare them to Dan Henry, Invicta, even Accurist and Sekonda. Lorier too.

I think they’ve been around a few years now, and are likely to settle into place (not mushrooming) as the cheaper cousin of San Martin and Steeldive. Ironically, Pagani are the ones more likely to have noticeable differences in their homages from my limited research — with changed complications and mixed design elements.

The Chinese brands are where the Japanese brands were forty years ago, and where the Swiss brands were forty years before that. Dan Henry is more or less where Rolex was (in some ways) in the middle of last century.

@ChronoGuy , @whitesalmon , @Jeremy

The new watch box is in use. No more tessellating watches.

Balance restored, gentlemen?

That looks fantastic!

Oh yes indeed.

A shameless box of homage in all their multicoloured glory!

My want gland is working at full capacity now!

I have one of these, it was my first watch box. I kept the box the box came in, I used it to transport the box full before I made some watch rolls. Great box!

Soooooo much better! :)

Trust me, it helped me as much as it did you. It just so happened that your comment coincided with a recent call to action on the part of my own sense of order. 😂

That's because you are on this site and not hodinkee.😂 No, honestly what I was trying to say is that some people might get pissed that "normal people" can't tell the difference of a 100$ watch and a +10k watch.

The case could be put for motorcycles and cars - I ride a 2022 Triumph Speed Twin, which along with the rest of the "Modern Classics" range is a Homage to Triumph's past. Same with the Mini, Beetle etc.

My favourite watches in my collection are all homages - Seamaster 300, Willard, 62Mas, Lunar Pilot.... So clearly I'm a fan of "original homages" - that is Homages made by the original manufacturer's paying tribute to their own past .

I do own a Steeldive Ploprof , but generally I'm not in favour of what are essentially unoriginal cash grab copies.

But to each their own 👍🏻