Why we all feel such disdain for Seiko now... AKA, the @ichibunz SPB143 homage perfectly illustrates why Seiko and other mid-tier manufacturers can no longer compete for enthusiasts’ hearts and minds

[Begin aside]

PSA:  Do yourself a big favor right this very moment, and go to https://theescapementroom.com

There you will find many articles written by fan favorites @DeeperBlue @Porthole and @Aurelian.  My god, I can't remember the last time I've laughed so hard. Their posts are eff'ing brilliant.

[End aside]

Behold, friends, the @Ichibunz "Only Watch" world-exclusive SPB143 homage!!!

[Are we allowed to say "Only Watch" anymore? Or does the massive fraud perpetrated by Luc Pettavino now preclude us from using that moniker?]

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Look at that lume!!!

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Oh, what’s that you say?  It’s not a homage?  It’s just a clone?  

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I LOVE this watch.  Attention @Aurelian, incoming 5-star review!

The only issue I have with the watch is that you can easily tell that it’s not a genuine Seiko, because it doesn’t have a misaligned bezel.  But, I don’t fault @Ichibunz for that.  I understand that Seiko has assiduously guarded that feature as one of their key differentiators, and they protect that IP with fanatical fervor.  

I came by this watch because I’d made a comment in some thread that I was thinking of picking up the SPB143, and @Ichibunz was kind enough to message me directly to say, “Dude, seriously?  Don’t pay all that money!  I can easily build you one.”

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The final product costs a fraction that of an official SPB143.  Sure, part of that has to do with the fact that @Ichibunz just likes to build watches for fun, and doesn’t charge any margin whatsoever.  But, part of it has to do with the cost structure of the watch industry as a whole.

The retail channel

See, Seiko lists the SPB143 for $1,200 MSRP.  That’s the price that a Seiko AD will charge you for the watch.  But, Seiko itself sells the watch to the AD for roughly 50% of that.  In reality, the manufacturer is always only getting roughly half of what you pay for the watch itself.  But, why is this the case?  Why doesn’t Seiko just go direct-to-consumer?  Why doesn’t Seiko boldly cut out the middle man to bring you affordable luxury?  Well, some brands do precisely that, like MVMT and Filipo Loretti…  as well as enthusiast favorite, the ever-awesome @benswatchclub’s Spaghetti Scameti...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezd0nAjhwDA

But, the real reason that the big brands continue to use the AD channel is because ADs provide a truly valuable service for both manufacturers and consumers.  For manufacturers, ADs take on the one job no manufacturer would ever want to do:  ADs deal with the buying public. 

I mean, if you’ve ever had to interact with another human being...

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"Oh, that’s utterly out-dated thinking!” one might exclaim.  “The Internet has changed everything, which lets manufacturers own the consumer relationship directly!”

Well…  direct-to-consumer really isn’t working out all that well for many once high-flying brands…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcNbIm0fRxk

But, let’s focus on the value ADs bring on the consumer side of affairs…

  1. Retailers curate the selection, ensuring a level of quality right off the bat for consumers, so you’re typically not going to get an absolute stinker when you buy from them, because retailers have a reputation to uphold and want to stock only quality goods

  2. Retailers have a vested interest in maintaining relationships with consumers, and will thereby typically stand behind the products they sell, providing hassle-free returns and exchanges, and other “insurance” services

  3. Retailers provide consumers with the opportunity to physically inspect goods and provide some level of product knowledge to unknowledgeable consumers

Now, you may look at that list, and react thusly…

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Sure, sure…  but that’s because you are not the target audience for ADs!  By virtue of you being here on WatchCrunch, you are a self-identified watch dork!  You already know EVERYTHING there is to know about every single watch that has ever existed in this and every other universe throughout the multiverse!  

[Begin aside]

Actually, the whole idea of a multiverse and the “Many Worlds Hypothesis” that comes out of the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Physics is pure, unadulterated drivel.  What an absolute load of BS!  But, that’s a conversation for another time!  Nonetheless, I'll just leave this here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHa1vbwVaNU

[End aside]

We enthusiasts are “special”

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Yes, you are!  You already know what’s high quality and what’s not.  You already can and do take care of any of your own watches’ issues by either fixing the issues yourself or going directly to the manufacturers themselves for warranty service.  And, most importantly, you already know everything!

As a result, middle-tier offerings are almost always “overpriced” and "a bad value," in the eyes of us watch enthusiasts.  I mean, think of every single post here on WC stating, “I can no longer in good conscience buy Seiko watches!”  Always said calmly and even-handedly, like this…

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The reason that we have so many of these posts is because it is very hard for mid-tier manufacturers to provide a compelling value proposition for enthusiasts.  "But Seiko used to be a great value!" one might exclaim.  Unfortunately, memory can be an unreliable thing, as the genius who is @KristianG recently pointed out in a mind-blowing comment...

Most people reminiscing about Seiko's better prices are thinking back to grey market prices, not RRP.  They completely forget that the SKX and SNK lines were dirt cheap because Seiko ADs couldn't sell them at RRP, so they got dumped on the grey market in huge numbers.

At the pricier end of the spectrum, the “luxury” manufacturers provide value by offering highly salient and compelling branding.  If you have a Rolex on your wrist, EVERYONE who sees the watch will know what it is and will immediately know that you are wearing a luxury watch!  And they will immediately ask…

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If you have a Glashuette Original on your wrist, watch nerds continents away will immediately perk up...

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And, invariably, that watch geek will reach out to you telepathically to say…

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That is the power of brand equity!  And so even though all of the major luxury brands use AD networks to sell their watches, we enthusiasts don’t hate them the way we hate Seiko, because they provide us with lots of value in the form of brand affinity (heritage, history, a sense of connection, self-confidence, a spring in your step that comes on after a short evening thunder shower the first time a boy or a girl calls to tell you they love you, etc., etc.).

Seiko, meanwhile, is in the unfortunate position of being stuck in the middle, where they have to compete with the likes of Nodus and Formex and Farer and Baltic and Christopher Ward, etc., etc., etc.  These are all micro brands that sell directly to consumers!  And they sell only to, effectively, enthusiasts!

The $1,000 MSRP Seiko can’t compete with the $1,000 MSRP Formex, for our enthusiast hearts and minds, because what you’re really getting from Seiko is a watch that Seiko will only make $500 in revenue from when the AD buys that watch from them.  Meanwhile, you order the Formex directly from Formex’s site, and they recognize the entire $1,000 in revenue from the sale!  How can a $500 watch be competitive against a $1,000 watch?  The fit and finish will almost always be better on the $1,000 watch, no?

So, why don’t more brands move to a direct model, like the micro brands?

Well, see the discussion above about the value that the middleman actually brings to the table.  But, beyond that, even if Seiko wanted to deal with people directly (yuck!), the vast majority of consumers don’t want to buy direct - it’s only enthusiasts who do!  The only people in the world who have ever heard of Monta, Formex, Nodus, and all those other wonderful micro brands is us enthusiasts!  And, well, we’re a tiny fraction of the watch market.

As @AndrewMorgan has pointed out many a time in his videos, we enthusiasts make up only something like 10% of the revenue of the watch market!   And when you’re a big corporation, selling to the middle of the market, like Seiko, getting rid of your AD relationships would be nothing short of suicide!  You can’t emulate the success of the Spaghetti Scameti when you’re Seiko...

https://www.watchcrunch.com/benswatchclub/posts/introducing-the-greatest-watch-brand-on-earth-spaghetti-scameti-icon-is-here-43779

… that revolution is a once-in-a-lifetime phenomenon.  

What to do?

So, where does that leave us?  Well, the large manufacturers selling mid-tier offerings will inevitably continue to shrink and flounder.  The innovators, like @Wes_nodus of Nodus will continue to produce offerings that surprise and delight us enthusiasts, and hopefully they grow into ever larger and more important players in the industry.  Modders like @Ichibunz will build watches that are equivalent in quality, if not superior, for far less than Seiko charges!  And manufacturers that have built powerful luxury brands will continue to leverage those brands to get us to shell out crazy amounts of money for these ridiculous trinkets.  

Unfortunately, Seiko, and others like it, will continue to provide less and less value to us enthusiasts.

But, you know, there’s really no need for us to react this way every time we talk about Seiko…

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… it’s just how it is.  Getting upset at Seiko would be like raging at the sun for always rising in the east and setting in the west!

So, are you done with Seiko?  Only micro brands for you from now on?  Or are you still a Belieber?

Oh, and if you want the world’s most awesome mod watch, hit up @Ichibunz!

Reply
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@Ichibunz continuing to be the WC watchmaker! Love it! 🔥❤️

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An Ichi-Build 143??? 🤯 Love it! Great read MDB! Unfortunately for me I like em all...

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Sorry - I don’t want my son to say at my funeral ‘Yeah - my dad left me his Ichibunz watch’ 😜

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I still like Seiko. I missed the glory days of the $100 SKX all day long, so the prices aren’t quite as shocking to a recent Seiko fan.

Might just have to be a bit more selective, and search a bit more for the bargains these days.

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Lauren

@Ichibunz continuing to be the WC watchmaker! Love it! 🔥❤️

And how many @Ichibunz do you personally have now? Like this?

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Mr.Dee.Bater

And how many @Ichibunz do you personally have now? Like this?

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I have three 😅. Gotta support a small business owner!

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To be fair, I pretty much just repeated what Marc, the owner of Long Island Watch, had said in a video a while back. He sold Grey Market Seiko, and specialized in selling modding parts before founding Islander Watches to essentially fix enthusiast's issues with the SKX.

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Lauren

I have three 😅. Gotta support a small business owner!

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And apparently afraid of color 🍻

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So… I’ve been right all this time?

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Ichi-build summer watch 🤔

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BtownB9

An Ichi-Build 143??? 🤯 Love it! Great read MDB! Unfortunately for me I like em all...

Yeah, that's true!!! The one thing I didn't mention is that when it comes to older models, regular production older models, Seiko prices are crazy good! Because they don't have to spend any fixed cost on marketing or design or anything like that, they can make lots of profit based on very low marginal production costs.

So, this is an absolute steal!

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You can typically get 'em for under $400 brand new! It's only the latest releases, with new design, new marketing, etc., that they charge an arm and a leg for!

Like this...

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@Ichibunz has a fiery personality its only fitting I ask him to build watches as unique as him!

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Architime

Sorry - I don’t want my son to say at my funeral ‘Yeah - my dad left me his Ichibunz watch’ 😜

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This is precisely what I hope my children say at my funeral!!!

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A pleasure building them my friend … 🙏 Thank You kind sir 🙏

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gbelleh

I still like Seiko. I missed the glory days of the $100 SKX all day long, so the prices aren’t quite as shocking to a recent Seiko fan.

Might just have to be a bit more selective, and search a bit more for the bargains these days.

Yeah, it's hilarious, but back in the "good old days" Moonwatches used to go for like $2,000. How come every time a Moonwatch is posted on WC, we don't get this kind of reaction?

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MSRP has more than tripled on the Moonwatch in recent years! Meanwhile, Seiko raises prices, and everyone loses it! Craziness!

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MinnKonaMike

Yeah, I should probably just change my handle to MinnMicroMike...

Ha! Just looked through your gallery. Yes...

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Mr.Dee.Bater
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While, this would be awesome for Seiko, unfortunately, I don't think this is feasible strategy.

  • Swatch Group tried to pull this off when they announced that they were going to stop providing ETA movements to their competitors

  • Swiss authorities stepped in and forced them to continue selling movements to their competitors!!!

  • Swatch Group could have conceivably put everyone else out of business had they been allowed to engage in free commerce

  • But, that's only because "Swiss Watches" was a thing, and in order to get the cache of a "Swiss Watch," the movement needed to be Swiss

  • In the intervening years, Soprod, Sellita, etc., etc., all sprang up to replace the workhorse ETA, and then all of Swatch Group's competitors used marketing to kick off the "in-house movement" craze: "Since Swatch won't sell us ETA's anymore, ETA sucks! No, no, you want this totally unproven and unreliable in-house movement that will take 3 months and a fortune to fix if anything goes wrong!"

You'll notice here, though, that the key to this strategy of Swatch's was people wanting and craving the "Swiss Made" label. And the "Swiss Made" label came about through decades of marketing and advertising, creating "Swiss Made" brand affinity in the minds of consumers.

This never happened with "Japan Made." As an Asian, I can say that Asians are TERRIBLE at marketing. Without consumer demand for "Japan Made" nobody cares if the movement is Seiko or Miyota or whatever. It's just a movement. It's an undifferentiated commodity, like pork bellies and corn.

And in today's world of Sellita, Soprod, etc., etc., if Seiko and Miyota stop selling movements, the micro brands can and will easily turn to alternate suppliers.

The ultimate alternate supplier is China. Right now, none of us trust Dandong or Seagull movements. But, back when I was a kid, anything "made in Taiwan" broke immediately - bought a cap gun at a local swap meet, and it had a prominent "made in Taiwan" sticker, and it broke before we even got to the car! Today, TSMC provides the world's most advanced semiconductor manufacturing!!!

At some point, if a Chinese company can learn Lean Manufacturing, all the low cost, reliable work horse movements will come from a Chinese brand, I suspect.

Great read 😂 I think you hit the nail on the head re: China. Swiss Made allows for a lot of wiggle room and with Japanese Made becoming more expensive, it competes less with Swiss (really mostly Chinese) Made. So Seiko has made a decision to follow Grand Seiko upmarket. There’s still economies of scale to be had when manufacturing volumes of Seiko 5, but for lower run models that’s lost. The movements at high volume still provide opportunity for micro brands though, although they’re now in competition with Miyota that make a very good product.

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its been a while since i read your article, very interesting read 🙏🏻. one question though, says if we build a watch from modded part like namoki, etc do they still has a water resistant ability?

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AndrewMorgan

Great read 😂 I think you hit the nail on the head re: China. Swiss Made allows for a lot of wiggle room and with Japanese Made becoming more expensive, it competes less with Swiss (really mostly Chinese) Made. So Seiko has made a decision to follow Grand Seiko upmarket. There’s still economies of scale to be had when manufacturing volumes of Seiko 5, but for lower run models that’s lost. The movements at high volume still provide opportunity for micro brands though, although they’re now in competition with Miyota that make a very good product.

Thank you so much, sir. That is very high praise, coming from you, in particular. The highlight of my morning commutes is listening to you and Tom quip back and forth in your podcasts.

This morning's...

but the piece de resistance, to borrow a little bit of Italian there, Tom

... had me laughing out loud.

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Unholy

its been a while since i read your article, very interesting read 🙏🏻. one question though, says if we build a watch from modded part like namoki, etc do they still has a water resistant ability?

Hmmm... you know, I have no idea!

@Ichibunz, what say you about water resistance on builds???

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Mr.Dee.Bater

Hmmm... you know, I have no idea!

@Ichibunz, what say you about water resistance on builds???

Never tested but according to vendors it’s 100-200 meters supposedly …

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Ichibunz

Never tested but according to vendors it’s 100-200 meters supposedly …

Yo... in the new year, is it possible to do an integrated bracelet build with a champagne dial like this? Lumed indices like this picture?

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But maybe swap out the Mercedes hands for Seiko style lumed hands?

I've always wanted to try out an integrated bracelet style watch!

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Mr.Dee.Bater

Yo... in the new year, is it possible to do an integrated bracelet build with a champagne dial like this? Lumed indices like this picture?

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But maybe swap out the Mercedes hands for Seiko style lumed hands?

I've always wanted to try out an integrated bracelet style watch!

Let me ck if we can get the parts 👍🏻

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Mr.Dee.Bater

Thank you so much, sir. That is very high praise, coming from you, in particular. The highlight of my morning commutes is listening to you and Tom quip back and forth in your podcasts.

This morning's...

but the piece de resistance, to borrow a little bit of Italian there, Tom

... had me laughing out loud.

😄 We had good fun making that episode, thank you!

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I'm late to the conversation. Have nothing new or interesting to add. I just wanted to say "Great Read!". Comments too!

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dumihed

I'm late to the conversation. Have nothing new or interesting to add. I just wanted to say "Great Read!". Comments too!

Thank you so much, sir. I really appreciate it.

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Great post Brian!

@Ichibunz forever...

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(gratuitous cool gif)

I present to you the Ichibunz MelOne...

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gbelleh

I still like Seiko. I missed the glory days of the $100 SKX all day long, so the prices aren’t quite as shocking to a recent Seiko fan.

Might just have to be a bit more selective, and search a bit more for the bargains these days.

Here's one bargain. I bought the recently released Seiko SUR517P1. Beautiful case finish, sapphire, accurate Seiko quartz movement, good strap, and great looking black "grid" dial that resembles an IWC Ingenieur. I got mine for $160 and the price since has even dropped by a few bucks.

There are many other quartzes with great looks and features, some select automatics, and now some of the newer Seiko 5s that hover around the $200 range.

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This is my favorite line in the whole post: "Getting upset at Seiko would be like raging at the sun for always rising in the east and setting in the west."

This is very perceptive. I can still find the occasional Seiko bargain like the new SUR517P1 with bulletproof Seiko quartz movement, sapphire, and IWC Ingenieur-like dial for $160, but mostly I just embrace the chaos. A couple of months ago I wrote two posts that are still on my profile page - "Seiko Board of Directors" and "Seiko Board of Directors - The Follow up." I thought I would feel better after I wrote them. But I'm not sure.

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samdeatton

This is my favorite line in the whole post: "Getting upset at Seiko would be like raging at the sun for always rising in the east and setting in the west."

This is very perceptive. I can still find the occasional Seiko bargain like the new SUR517P1 with bulletproof Seiko quartz movement, sapphire, and IWC Ingenieur-like dial for $160, but mostly I just embrace the chaos. A couple of months ago I wrote two posts that are still on my profile page - "Seiko Board of Directors" and "Seiko Board of Directors - The Follow up." I thought I would feel better after I wrote them. But I'm not sure.

I saw that there was no one on stage, and that all the executives had almost finished their dinners, so I got up there and began to speak. I said I was there to tell about all our concerns from the Official WatchCrunch Survey, and a respectful hush came over the crowd. I spoke of the obvious problems like regulation, quality control, sapphire and bracelets, to deeper issues like too many product lines and wider distribution of JDM models, and spoke passionately about my own personal desires like solar mecha-quartz and the Seiko Edible, the world's first watch for Watch Collectors consumed with (false) guilt that their hobby is taking food from their children's mouths. With its black licorice dial, gummy straps, and pure sugar crystal, you just feed this to your kids if you think you have bought too many watches and they now have to go hungry.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂