Homage or Fake?
I knew there would a bit of controversy about these kinds of Chinese watches. I do never wear them if I know I'm visting a jewlery store, but thats about the only time I feel the shame of where a homage. Homage is what I call them, but maybe I call them that to make myself feel better lol. Also the youtube videos where I found these watches make it sound like they're some-what accepted. One of my favorite youtubers, JustOneMoreWatch, seems to respect all watches, and what the Chinese are doing. I will admit I don't find myself wearing them too often. Not sure if it's because the design, or of it's because deep down, I know it's not the real thing. I would like to think that doesn't bother me though. What are the thoughts of the people on watch crunch?
Humble Watch Collector (aka broke)
Its not a fake so theyre ok in my book. I probaby wont get one though because i know ill want the original sooner or later.
Like all things in life, it depends.
I own two San Martin. One of them, the SN007-G-X is excellent. It's basically a truer re-creation of the 1965 Seiko 62MAS than any new model that Seiko made, including the SLA017. Is it a homage? Maybe. It's not a copy of any model that Seiko is currently making that's for sure.
The other San Martin that I own is the SN021 which kinda look like an Explorer if you are not paying attention. It's not as well made as the SN007 for sure. It's also is definitively an attempt to present itself like a current model. Does it matter? Maybe. Do I care? Not really. I wear it when I want an unassuming 3 hand watch with great legibility.
Its not a fake so theyre ok in my book. I probaby wont get one though because i know ill want the original sooner or later.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I'd say a positive of trying a homage is to see if you would actually like the real thing. After owning the bb58 homage San Martin, my urge to buy a bb58 has gone down a lot. Partially because I love the San Martin version with the ceramic bezel, and partially because the design doesn't do it for me like I thought it would.
I like this way of thinking about it. Never really thought about how Japanese watches do the same thing too. Less blatantly I'd argue though. Yes, San Martin's bb58 homage also has a ceramic bezel which differen't to the original. I actually appreciate that difference.
These are not fakes. But most definitely they aren’t „homages“ either!
Like all things in life, it depends.
I own two San Martin. One of them, the SN007-G-X is excellent. It's basically a truer re-creation of the 1965 Seiko 62MAS than any new model that Seiko made, including the SLA017. Is it a homage? Maybe. It's not a copy of any model that Seiko is currently making that's for sure.
The other San Martin that I own is the SN021 which kinda look like an Explorer if you are not paying attention. It's not as well made as the SN007 for sure. It's also is definitively an attempt to present itself like a current model. Does it matter? Maybe. Do I care? Not really. I wear it when I want an unassuming 3 hand watch with great legibility.
My buddy has the sn007 as well, its probably the best made out of all the San Martin's I've seen in person. My explore like San martin has a qc issue where the crown doesnt screw all the way down just ever so slightly. The other ones are damn near perfect but have maybe a tiny piece of dust on the hands.
There are 3 tiers.
Fake = using the original name on the dial
Copy = same design but different name on the dial (eg Pagani Design Daytona
Homage = taking design cues from an existing watch and making it their own. (Excellent examples in Watch Playboy's post above).
As my late mother would say: “Champagne tastes on a beer budget”.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I'd say a positive of trying a homage is to see if you would actually like the real thing. After owning the bb58 homage San Martin, my urge to buy a bb58 has gone down a lot. Partially because I love the San Martin version with the ceramic bezel, and partially because the design doesn't do it for me like I thought it would.
Yeah it makes sense for just trying on the size and style. But you cant replicate things like crown/bezel action and other attention to details.
Wear what you are comfortable wearing. As pointed out above, homages are not new things. Indeed, the only watch in my collection that ever draws notice from Muggles is my Tudor BB GMT but this is only because people think it's a Rolex (is a homage ok if it is officially sanctioned).
There is very little true originality in the watch world and I think the main point in buying a homage is whether you would feel good wearing it in public because if you would be uncomfortable wearing the watch, what's the point.
Homage - Inspired by and look like (usually) iconic watches, but usually are not direct copies. They are not branded the same as the inspiration pieces.
Fake - Pretty much exactly like the watch they are faking, even down to the branding. Illegal AF.
Clomage - Pretty much exactly like the watch they are "homaging" with the only outward difference being the branding. Typically have movements that are nothing like the inspiration piece, all the way down to the cheapest quartz movements.
Will I buy and own Homages & Clomages? Yep.
Homage - Inspired by and look like (usually) iconic watches, but usually are not direct copies. They are not branded the same as the inspiration pieces.
Fake - Pretty much exactly like the watch they are faking, even down to the branding. Illegal AF.
Clomage - Pretty much exactly like the watch they are "homaging" with the only outward difference being the branding. Typically have movements that are nothing like the inspiration piece, all the way down to the cheapest quartz movements.
Will I buy and own Homages & Clomages? Yep.
Hm, a clomage might be what I San Martin is doing with the watches I own. Had not heard of that one.
Wear what you are comfortable wearing. As pointed out above, homages are not new things. Indeed, the only watch in my collection that ever draws notice from Muggles is my Tudor BB GMT but this is only because people think it's a Rolex (is a homage ok if it is officially sanctioned).
There is very little true originality in the watch world and I think the main point in buying a homage is whether you would feel good wearing it in public because if you would be uncomfortable wearing the watch, what's the point.
Very true. I think I'll draw the line at what San Martin is doing. Probably a clomage.
Jody from 'Just One More Watch' does frequently review ones from China, and he is definitely in your face when the AliExpress big sales are one. They do seem to make a number of robust watches, but I would never buy one unless he had given it the rubber stamp, as it's just hard to be sure when buying from over there! In saying that, and may make you feel a little better, many of our brand names are 'cased in China' so there's that! Oh, and definitely NOT a fake - it is a genuine San Martin. How are they really any different to a Micro-Brand? They have a designer, they develop tooling, and if they have any QC, then they show it some love too. And using a Seiko or other movement means that you get reliability to boot. Like many, many watches on the market, it shares similar traits to watches that have come before it.
As long as they don't pretend to be the real thing, then they are not a "fake".
"Homage" is a gentle word for these watches that essentially rip-off the IP of the watches they are copying, but as of now, no one has taken them to court to contest copying the "look and feel".
The guitar industry went through a very similar period back in the late 1960s/early 1970s. How the major brands dealt with it was by homaging their own expensive designs providing a range in pricing for the same design from Chinese made to Mexican made to American made to Custom Shop.
I think many of us have played around with ordering a few of these.
Hear are some of the ones I've added to my collection...
And I just ordered these on Aliexpress...
I have yet to buy a San Martin, but in nearly all of the reviews I have seen, they are one of the best homage brands you can buy. My pick would be a BB58 homage or their Ranger homage.
I love homage watches, not only for their value, but also because you can get above-average build quality at relatively to prices. The NH35A (and its derivatives) is a fantastic movement. Of the 5 watches I have with that movement, only one is running at more than +/- 10 SPD.
I have a few Steeldives, and personally they do a great job of balancing build quality with low prices. The bracelets they use are great and include 6 micro adjusts as well. My personal favorite is the SKX homage I have. The jubilee bracelet is high quality and tapers down toward the clasp, My Heimdallr SKX doesn't feature the tapering but is also a home run in my book. The lume is pretty freakin' great on both Steeldive and Heimdallr watches too.
Steeldive SD1996 SKX homage
Steeldive SD1958 Submariner homage
Heimdallr SKX homage
I am a small business owner (not in watches) and if someone gets "inspired" by my products, copies them with slight modifications, and sells them for 5-15 times less, that would shut-down my business.
Not cool.
❌ homages and fakes
This is an apples to oranges comparison.
What you are referring to is competition in the marketplace. Unless a competitor was ripping off a patent of yours or using your logo, there is nothing to prevent that business from selling similar products for a lower price.
If the Chinese homages were infringing on copyrights or trademarks, they'd have a lawsuit on their hands. Luxury watch brands are not being driven to extinction because AliExpress sells designs that mimic them.
Call them what you will but Chinese ones are vilified by some on this forum but Long Island one’s are applauded
Same thing, they still nicked someone’s design.
Technically they are not fake watches, although I do not know if they infringe on trademarks. I think the Tudor snowflake hand is protected for example.
In the guitar world you are allowed to copy the shape of the body but not the headstock since it is part of the trade dress. In the 70s there was a wave of 1:1 copies of iconic American guitars coming from japan. Ibanez for example did a Gibson Les Paul with their logo on it (pretty much the same thing as an homage watch). They were sued and had to stop. The guitars are now called the law suit Les Pauls and are quite popular since their quality was excellent. Therefore, I cannot imagine that you are allowed to copy every visual aspect of a watch and sell it under a different name. Makes no sense to me.
Also, I find it irritating that they are called homages. A homage to me is more what lorier does. They clearly state what watches inspired them for their design and build upon that. I think we have to come up with a less sugar coating name.
Also: Does anyone know what is up with the clone watches that are Seiko branded? I think they startet as mods to Seiko models that made them look a bit like a more expensive model, but now there are nautilus, royal oaks, Rolex clones with Seiko on the dial. Isn't it a double offense by faking the design and abusing the Seiko Name?
Someone earlier said clomage. That may the name you are looking for.
I don't find homages offensive with watch enthusiast. But at the end they are making millions out someone's design. The other company pour the money, blood and tears and marketing. San Martin just build it and sold it. I personally get it for those that can care less about a sticker brand. Why pay 1000k+. When i can get it for half or less.
This is an apples to oranges comparison.
What you are referring to is competition in the marketplace. Unless a competitor was ripping off a patent of yours or using your logo, there is nothing to prevent that business from selling similar products for a lower price.
If the Chinese homages were infringing on copyrights or trademarks, they'd have a lawsuit on their hands. Luxury watch brands are not being driven to extinction because AliExpress sells designs that mimic them.
Of course Ali brands are infringing, and of course there are lawsuits around.
For example https://www.ablogtowatch.com/panerai-defends-intellectual-property-against-copycat-manufacturer-china/
Of course Ali brands are infringing, and of course there are lawsuits around.
For example https://www.ablogtowatch.com/panerai-defends-intellectual-property-against-copycat-manufacturer-china/
Did you read the lede paragraph of the article, or just see the headline and think "Gotcha!" There is a distinct difference between a counterfeit, which is illegal, and a watch that borrows styling cues but does not use a trademarked logo or name. You can do better than that, dude.
I have a couple but not because I went out looking for a homage of this or that. In most cases I don’t know they’re a homage or have any idea what they are homaging.
But if it’s a well made watch at a good price that I like and want then no real qualms about it.
I have been disappointed though (mostly QC but occasionally because the watch differs from it’s pics) and in those cases I just never touch that brand again - there’s so much choice out there so no need to revisit a poor one.
Did you read the lede paragraph of the article, or just see the headline and think "Gotcha!" There is a distinct difference between a counterfeit, which is illegal, and a watch that borrows styling cues but does not use a trademarked logo or name. You can do better than that, dude.
Nope, @nenadp is right. The article is about Awsky. They did not use the Panerai name and fit the classic definition of an homage brand quite well.
Nope, @nenadp is right. The article is about Awsky. They did not use the Panerai name and fit the classic definition of an homage brand quite well.
I retract my previous statement. My apologies for rudely asserting my original point. Maybe laws work overseas differently than here in the States regarding infringement and counterfeit goods
To react on the question of the article: I have the same experience that you have. I bought a San Martin SN019 that is based on the Rolex Submariner 41mm because I like the design but also because I was curious about the quality. I think quality is fine, nothing special though. But in the end I simply do not pick this one from my box with original designs. They remain a bit "I want but I cannot" watches; for me at least. I gave the San Martin to my father who is not interested in watches and just wants a good watch (which I think it is) and he uses it every day, so it found a good home!
I have the V3 San Martin SN0017. I'm new to collecting and I only own a Seiko SRPD, Orient Mako and now... the San Martin. I know it's a "homage" watch, but the feel and look is legit. Out of the 3 watches I own, the bracelet on the SM is far better. I've been constantly watching watch vids/reviews on YT and I see that there's a split consensus on the legitimacy of homages. On one hand I love the design(duh), but on the other, explaining the watch to others is kinda embarrassing. Upon further searching I see many watches near the price point of the SM that would have been a better choice(Tissot Couturier $290). Live and learn. But honestly I have no shame in rocking a well-made watch with a great movement and solid specs. Watch snobs can kiss my ass.
Every watch today has some influence from another watch so really they are all paying homage to other watches and unless its using the company’s name it’s perfectly exceptable. I love them and that’s what I mostly collect because I refuse to pay some stupid absurd amount of money for a watch. Most ppl will never be able to buy a Rolex Explorer because they cost a stupid amount of money so if they want to enjoy something that looks and feels some what like it this is the only option. I really don’t understand why the watch community makes such a big deal about it. When it comes to buying other things its no big deal, for example you buy a Beretta 92fs 9mm for 600 or so dollars or you can buy the Taurus PT92 for around half that. Both guns look almost identical but with very small differences and different names. When someone buys the PT92 ppl don’t say O man don’t buy that its a stupid homage pistol. No they just assume you like a good bargain or the other gun was not available or what ever. I also don’t understand why its okay for some companies to homage a watch but not okay for others. For example if you are wearing a Smiths Everest Explorer homage most ppl give that watch some respect but if its made in china with a Japan movement and very good specs the same ppl might just look down their noses at it. Me I wear what I like, so if its a well made watch for a good price I’m rocking that it loud and proud!
Yes. Wear whatever you love and looks good .
I found Homage watches a welcome change I bought my Grail watch (Seiko MM300)only to find it defective I had to swap it twice before I gave up only to be told that the Homage version was the same price as the return postage of my Grail watch I have never looked back.
If you go all the way back someone decided to create a 3 hand clock. So in a manner of speaking they are all homaging that. A little bit far fetched I agree, by advise, as long as it doesn't say "insert brand" while it isn't, I wouldn't worry to much. Just wear what you like.
The clock-watch possibly from Peter Henlein and possibly from 1510
The oldest watch in the world (is maybe from 1505) - Your Watch Hub