Let’s be honest about Grand Seiko.

Fair post for sure. May be a little of what I'm dealing with too. I don't hold it against GS that they are associated with Seiko and I'm also not concerned with the brand cachet thing. I enjoy checking out various brands. I just feel they are so hyped within the community that it's a bit of a turn off. Neither Spring Drive nor Zaratsu interest me much. I've only found a couple of GS watches I'd actually wear. That said, I recognize the brand's contributions to horology but they generally are not my style. To each his own. We like what we like.

Thank you for a thoughtful response

Hi Brandon, I’m with you here regarding the GS branding. I just spent 6 days in Japan visiting various ADs (and even the Seiko Museum) but couldn’t pull the trigger to buy a GS. Don’t get me wrong, I love Seikos and they make the bulk of my collection, but seeing the GSs in person didn’t do anything for me. I think its slogan “always one step ahead of the rest” captures its branding well; it is a watch arguably at the frontier of horological development, but unfortunately not something all watch collectors value. It may be the brand for others, but at least right now, it isn’t the one for me.

Funny enough I think not having the "catchet" as a Swiss is what makes Seiko create magic. Since the 60s Seiko has been regarded as not as good as the Swiss brand. IWC carries the flag as the "aviation watch" Seiko was also making aviation watches in WW2. Heuer, Zenith were fighting for the first automatic mechanical chronograph. Seiko was there as well. Dive watch? they threw their hat in the ring with the 62MAS. The list goes. So I think "not as good as the Swiss" I think is a badge of honor for Seiko vs a negative thing.

The SBGM221 is an outlier for me because it's the only GS that I really like.

I think that the "cachet" aura surrounding Swiss watches is mostly a myth, but there is something about the case shape and style of the other GS models that simply doesn't appeal to my taste. The SBGM221 does however and I think it's a watch that can stand on its own to match or even exceed anything that Swiss brands can put against it.

Honestly, I have no issue separating the 2 brands. I have nothing but deep respect for Grand Seiko even though I pass on most of their watches, and have a love hate relationship with Seiko. Seiko drives me nuts with how inaccurate their mechanical movements can be. My favorite watch I own is a Sinn, and the watch I wear the most is an Omega. But if you asked me what my favorite brand is I would tell you Seiko, and I would put GS way above them. Oh and my grail watch is a Credor, and they are supposedly on a tier above GS, even though the case back on the Credor says Seiko. So at the end of the day none of this makes sense, and sane people only own 1 watch and don’t really spend any time thinking about it.

Oh man, Seiko has an amazing brand story! Far more interesting than many Swiss brands, in my opinion. Let alone the whole story of Grand Seiko vs King Seiko, and how GS rose to the top. But maybe I'm biased...

IMO GS is an amazing used buy. You get so much watch for your money. And at the end of the day "watch" people will know what it is and none watch people will just know it's not a Rolex just like every other watch.

I appreciate your introspectiveness and honesty!

Break this down into 3 challenges:

1. What you think

2. What watch enthusiasts think

3. What civilians think

To answer #3 - they don't. They have no feelings about any watch brand other than Rolex. So you're in the clear there.

#2: A story - I went into the Grand Seiko store in NYC and asked if by any chance they carried the limited edition King Seiko that had just been released. You should have SEEN the looks on their faces. A preposterous idea. "We don't have any... Seikos here." Which is to say, the company has made efforts to make their own brand and separate themselves from the Seiko of SKX007 fame. Watch people know that.

#1: The one that matters. And indeed, it comes down to: wear what you like! I had a San Martin for a while that was just a great watch. But at a certain point, I just felt uncomfortable with the homage aspect of it. So I sold it. That's me. You kind of have to decide your tolerance and what makes you feel the best. Hope that's helpful.

I love both the Seiko and Grand Seiko heritage and story. I’ve got a range of seikos from the 70s to last year and a vintage GS and fairly new GS GMT.

The Grand Seikos are an absolute joy to wear and get more wrist time than my Rolex or Cartier but about the same as my speedmaster. The meticulous attention to detail and build quality make me smile every time I look at them.

You haven’t said how much time you’ve spent up close with the SBGM221. For most people GS is a brand you fall in love with or you don’t. It’s not a brand to buy because it’s the next step in collecting.

It sounds like you are at that turning point in your watch adventure where you’re getting ready to find out what brands and styles are actually right for you. It’s a fun place to be. I hope you’re surprised by what resonates! That creamy dial on the one you’re thinking about is amazing though. I can’t imagine ever getting tired of it.

What you describe is not all that uncommon. The 221 is a fine watch but you could find something else for $4600 without the angst. Skip it.

Edit: I own three GS models including the 221. Seiko and GS are probably my fav brands.

I made my bones in advertising so I know the importance of branding and identity. I've observed that there are two types of vocal enthusiasts here. Those who put a lot of value in brand cache and those who think people who put a lot of value in brand cache are losers. There may be enrhusiasts sitting in the middle but they're not as vocal.

I belong to the first group. I firmly believe that the vital differentiator between similar looking items is branding. Why pay more for a watch when all watches tell the same time, give or take several seconds a day? For most people it's brand equity. I chose to drop thousands of dollars on an old JLC Reverso and not on a new Grand Seiko because one brand is—in my eyes as a consumer—better than the other, regardless of actual specs for the money.

I think the problem with the Grand Seiko brand (not the watches themselves, just the brand) is that the word "Seiko" is not synonymous with class and exclusivity. Most buyers who are willing to throw thousands of dollars on a watch want their watch to stand for something. You might say, but Grand Seiko is a different company, yada-yada. That may be true written down in business documents. But most people don't read business documents. Perception is reality and the perception is Grand Seiko is just Seiko but more expensive. Every time you look at the name you're reminded of Seiko because it says Seiko. This is not nothing.

So yeah, I get why a lot of people like you don't know what think about Grand Seiko. To buy or not to buy? I myself don't have the desire for any of their watches.

I was pretty late to Grand Seiko for reasons that do not need to be revealed but there are a lot of watch brands that I will also never own or even want to experience. I can rattle off 10 Watch Crunch fan favourites that I feel would add nothing to my own watch collecting, after all we remain individuals. I think Grand Seiko is either a watch you love or do not for whatever reasons. My regular multi brand ad is owned and operated by a second generation watch seller, honest, insightful pretty successful sales agent. He sells a lot of SBGM221 models, seems to be a Grand Seiko for customers who are not fans of the other GS case designs. I presently own 3 different high beat mechanical models from

the brand waiting for the spring drive model not fitted into titanium that catches my eye. If I am being honest, the SBGM221 is a watch that I like but never purchased because imo doesn’t give me the full GS experience.

I'm not a fan of the GS branding either but I see the lack of cachet of the Seiko name as a good way to avoid falling into the hype watch category like muggles buying a Rolex or an Omega for the wealth flex but with no curiosity for horologie. Instead GS is a niche brand under the radar for the real enthusiasts and if your watch is recognized you know it will spark an awesome conversation with another watch nerd. Plus the objective hand finishing quality you get for the money is head and shoulders above the competition in my opinion.

I don’t believe most people when they say the brand name has zero impact on them. Of course it does. That doesn’t make you a watch snob or anything, it’s just human nature and that’s why the marketing works so well.

I’m not really into Seiko. Never have been. GS is a different animal altogether but I get why some can’t shake off exactly what you’re talking about, when it comes to Seiko vs GS.

Grand Seiko the brand, no matter how beautiful their dials nor advanced their movements, will never have the cachet of a luxury Swiss brand.

Having said that however, you can still gain as much joy from their watches as a more prestigious brand - it’s just different. Personally, I get as much pleasure if not more from my Casios and Seikos than my Rolex.

This video also shows reasons to be proud of that name on the dial--that time when Grand Seiko so embarrassed the Swiss brands at their own annual chronometer competition that Swiss shut the whole thing down rather than admit they couldn't compete. Couple that with the fact that two years later, Seiko beat them to market with the first automatic chronograph and then, just a few months after that, the first quartz watch. Then consider that they make literally every component in house that that the brand is still run by dependents of Hattori and it's hard to deny their place at the top of the industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayUT5WfkHrA

The model you have posted is so gorgeous but has a great bug: it's only splash resistant

I'd argue that "Grand Seiko" being such an honest, simple designation is what makes it special. No need for the fictitious brands that prop up the Swiss luxury watch industry and perpetuate the idea that the status an object projects is more important than the qualities of the object itself. Grand Seiko says, quite directly, this is a Seiko, but of the highest quality. I find that incredibly refreshing and more appealing than the Swiss practice of inventing (or, more often, buying out) brands to fill out a sort of tiered price/status hierarchy that masks the reality that conglomerates are building their various sub-brands' products at the same factories from the same component parts sourced from the same suppliers. Basically, "this is a Seiko" and "this is a Grand Seiko" as a way of differentiating quality and justifying price feels much better to me than "this is a Tissot and this is a Longines" and pretending that they're not made in the same factories, built by the same robots, powered by the same movements, and that these brands have any connection whatsoever to the the companies they were before they were acquired and gutted in the name of consolidation and market segmentation.

As far as car metaphors go, I think of Swatch operating the way GM did in the 80s with Omega as their Cadillac, Longines as Buick, Hamilton as Oldsmobile...all the way down the line to Tissot as Chevy. Each GM division was basically a hollowed-out brand, long divorced from the histories used in their marketing and the same cars were given different styling cues, option packages, and performance upgrades to justify their price tiers and fulfill the expectations of their respective brand demographics. Apart from a couple of specialty vehicles (the Corvette is a notable example) everything ran on shared powertrains and no brand operated with autonomous R&D or manufacturing. This very much parallels Swatch and, I expect, they will suffer the same fate as GM, being forced to shutter a number of their divisions (aka "brands") to survive the next wave of industry contraction.

If you like it, consider buying it used. It's pretty hard to beat the value of Grand Seiko on the second hand market. Apparently people used to be able to do the same with Rolex not too long ago. Trends change. Personally, I love my white birch spring drive. The dial is stunning, it's got a five day power reserve, and it gains about two seconds every 3 months! It's an engineering marvel. I've never needed to put it on my winder. The fact that most people don't know what it is translates to wearing it everywhere and enjoying it without worrying about getting mugged. The company does everything in house and even grows their own quartz for quality control. The main downside in my opinion is that there aren't a ton of places to get them worked on which means sending it back to Japan in 10 to 15 years. The second downside is selling it for a big loss if you originally bought it new. Both negatives could change down the road.

Agreed.

I owned a SBGH277 hi beat that I purchased at the GS boutique at Ginza. After about two years of ownership, I grew to despise the case and bracelet and ended up trading the watch.

• The case was so bulbous (sapphire case back and bezel) and angular (lugs) at the same time. It was also nearly 14mm thick, so it protruded from my wrist like some kind of awkward metal tumor.

• Although Grand Seiko prides themselves on movements, dials, and high levels of fit and finish, their bracelets are terrible. The SBGH277's bracelet was unacceptable for a $6k+ watch. In contrast, StrapCode bracelets are Seiko aftermarket replacements and are generally nicer. Omega watches at the same price point come with better bracelets. In my opinion, watch bracelets should be subdued, functional, and strong. Just enough to ensure that the watch fits your wrist comfortably and won't fall off under normal circumstances. No more, no less. At their retail price, Rolex's OP and DJ are probably the best examples of this.

• Huge watches. I don't understand why Grand Seiko keeps designing large diameter + thickness watches. Is their target audience the cast of "The Expendables"? For example (and I quote Hoodwinkee): "The SLGA023 is a complete beast. Both the case and the bracelet are made from Grand Seiko's High-Intensity Titanium and measures 43.8 mm wide, 13.8mm thick, and 51.5mm lug to lug..."

• Constant limited edition releases. This seems like a cash grab. Rather than investing time and effort into beating a dead horse, Grand Seiko should be focused on innovating and expanding their line with form + functionality improvements. Thinner movements, better bracelets, and nicer lines would be a good start.

• Limited service options. Seiko NJ has a bad reputation and nobody wants to ship their expensive GS to Japan for service and repair.

The point about beating the Swiss at the chronometer certifications back in the 60s keeps getting dragged up. It’s such a weak argument nowadays when one considers COSC and METAS. Yes it did happen, but the Swiss has upped their game so no point bringing that old dog back to the table.

That argument is starting to sound like GS’s constant marketing of “limited edition” pieces based on the lake, mountains, rain drops, and frigging morning dew on the pencils left outside the Shizuoka studio. Gimme a break… 😱

The limited edition shtick wears thin, but the point of the 60s story is just to say that the Seiko/Grand Seiko name is something with enough real history, pride, and weight that it makes sense why Seiko keeps it on their best watches (which do perform to COSC/METAS standards, but can’t be certified as such because, back to that old story, it’s a protectionist certification and non-Swiss watches aren’t allowed).

Love spring drive. I think some "Uber chronometer" third party spec could help a lot here

Meh. I was thrilled to spend close to $30k on my Hana Ikada. I think Grand Seiko is an extraordinary brand

Just looked that piece up— incredible.

It really is. I'm obsessed with it!

Honestly, they weren't just in the fight for the first automatic chronograph, they won it, beating Zenith and the Heuer/Breitling/Hamilton union to market. A few months later, they did it again with the first commercially available quartz watch. The "not as good as the Swiss" thing feels like a marketing myth created to protect the Swiss watch industry and one I hope we'll all learn to see past.