It's coming from inside the house 😱?
When is a in-house movement even interesting and worth it? I have been falling for the in-house marketing, but I think I have lost most of my enthusiasm for this gimmick by now.
Are you a movement manufacturer like Seiko, Citizen or so on? Fine, you are basically using your own 3rd party movement 😂 Making a watch slimmer, more accurate, higher beat? Go for it!! Making a movement with a cool complication or something else unique? Awesome 💪 Making a movement for a regular threehander with a date and calling it in-house to get creds and get paid a premuim? Nah, don't think so..
There is safety in a ETA, Selitta, Miyota or Seiko movement. They work and are cheap and easy to service. Take Tudor, they have had several issues with in the transtition to in-house, price have risen and there is a separate company which makes the movement (and is shared with other watchmakers). Worth it? I don't know 🤔
I just want to mention that the Japanese brands rarely mention in-house, it's expected that it's in-house. I think my issue is the in-house marketing and fixating. If someone makes good movements there is value in that. Making your own movement doesn't make it automatically better than others.
When do you think in-house is worth it?
This exalts the brand, but doesn't necessarily help the product. If one isn't going to do something different or better than the established movement makers, which is a tall order, it tends to be folly and a vanity project.
Nobody complains about boutique carmakers using mass-manufacturer engines. Do you want the primitive hand-made engine that is authentic and prestigious, or the world-class modern performance one built by specialists with massive capitalization?
I don’t think it’s ever worth it in my opinion. I wear a different watch every day so the seconds lost or gained a week really means nothing to me, because I set my watch every morning. I used to pay attention to movements when I first started collecting, but not anymore. The reason being is that in four years I’ve never had a movement fail on me, so my cheapest $50 watch is still going as strong as my $700 watch.
now like you said if their going to make some unique complicated movement no one has ever seen before yeah, by all means make an in-house movement. But other wise just use what exists and keep the price down.
Yea, unless it adds some functionality, like 70 hour power reserve, I see your point. But there is also value retention, which is important if you flip them a lot like I do. For instance, I'd really like to buy a Tudor BB 41 but there is rumor floating around that a new refresh is coming soon using their in house movement and micro adjust bracelet, so I'm waiting to see what the new release is. Even if I end up with the current model with a Selitta, I'm pretty sure I will be able to get a better deal on it if it is the outgoing model.
This exalts the brand, but doesn't necessarily help the product. If one isn't going to do something different or better than the established movement makers, which is a tall order, it tends to be folly and a vanity project.
Nobody complains about boutique carmakers using mass-manufacturer engines. Do you want the primitive hand-made engine that is authentic and prestigious, or the world-class modern performance one built by specialists with massive capitalization?
Or with phones? I don't want android or iOS. Please make some on-house software that's unstabile and hard to figure out 🙏🤣
i prefer movement that easy to repair. i also hear orient advertised to use their in house movement even it is an affordable brand
I don’t think it’s ever worth it in my opinion. I wear a different watch every day so the seconds lost or gained a week really means nothing to me, because I set my watch every morning. I used to pay attention to movements when I first started collecting, but not anymore. The reason being is that in four years I’ve never had a movement fail on me, so my cheapest $50 watch is still going as strong as my $700 watch.
now like you said if their going to make some unique complicated movement no one has ever seen before yeah, by all means make an in-house movement. But other wise just use what exists and keep the price down.
Accuracy depends mostly on the regulation and most movements can be adjusted to be pretty spot on 😊 But it's not worth the hassle if you change watches often.
Yea, unless it adds some functionality, like 70 hour power reserve, I see your point. But there is also value retention, which is important if you flip them a lot like I do. For instance, I'd really like to buy a Tudor BB 41 but there is rumor floating around that a new refresh is coming soon using their in house movement and micro adjust bracelet, so I'm waiting to see what the new release is. Even if I end up with the current model with a Selitta, I'm pretty sure I will be able to get a better deal on it if it is the outgoing model.
It's absolutely something to take advantage off 💪😎💪
I think it's a question of marketing and brand placement. There's a certain cachet, with some folks, if a movement is in-house- it definitely shows a company commitment to engineering and design, but to the end user, other than wanting to identify with that brand of watch- does it truly matter?
I'm just as happy with my cheap $20 Casio quartz watches, as I am with my Orient automatic. As long as they can tell time, it doesn't matter to me. If I could buy a Rolex Sub with a quartz movement, far cheaper than what they are now- would I? Hell yes I would.
But conversely, if you could buy a Porsche 911 with a lowly 6cyl from a Buick, would you? You could still get places, but the experience wouldn't be the same.
With watches, I just want it to look cool, or quirky, and I want to like it. Oh yeah, and tell time. What's on the inside doesn't matter to me at all.
For me, it is not worth it. A movement with a proven track record is much more important than the in-house marketing. A lot can also be achieved with modified movements, for example longer power reserves without taking away the convenience of serviceability.
I very much understand it for higher end brands. But even then, the term "in-house" can be vague and brands can be deceptive about it for the sake of marketing. Yes, I'm still looking at you, Bremont.
As for Tudor, a workhorse movement like a modified ETA is fitting with their roots and in my opinion, putting the in-house marketing in it doesn't justify moving upmarket for them.
As long as it’s a proven and reliable movement, I’d rather have one that can be easily serviced.
Many "in-house" movements are more like "in-group". Like the 80hrs eta in the swatchgroup and the Tudor movement I mentioned.
I guess, like everything, the answer is "it depends". I'm not a snob and one of my favorite watches is my Oris Big Crown Pointer Date, which uses a Sellita SW-200. I've had to get it serviced once already and it was fairly quick because the movement is ubiquitous and any competent watchmaker can service it.
But I really like the in house movement in my Omega Aqua Terra because it gives me a) 17 more hours of power reserve compared to the Oris, b) anti-magnitism which is great for everyday life and airports and c) the co-axial escapement extends the service interval. The watch is 5 years old, still runs within COSC specifications, so I probably won't have to service it for another 3-5 years. That has real value to me.
I think it's a question of marketing and brand placement. There's a certain cachet, with some folks, if a movement is in-house- it definitely shows a company commitment to engineering and design, but to the end user, other than wanting to identify with that brand of watch- does it truly matter?
I'm just as happy with my cheap $20 Casio quartz watches, as I am with my Orient automatic. As long as they can tell time, it doesn't matter to me. If I could buy a Rolex Sub with a quartz movement, far cheaper than what they are now- would I? Hell yes I would.
But conversely, if you could buy a Porsche 911 with a lowly 6cyl from a Buick, would you? You could still get places, but the experience wouldn't be the same.
With watches, I just want it to look cool, or quirky, and I want to like it. Oh yeah, and tell time. What's on the inside doesn't matter to me at all.
I noticed that the brands you mentioned uses in-house movements... Such a snob 🤭
For me, it is not worth it. A movement with a proven track record is much more important than the in-house marketing. A lot can also be achieved with modified movements, for example longer power reserves without taking away the convenience of serviceability.
I very much understand it for higher end brands. But even then, the term "in-house" can be vague and brands can be deceptive about it for the sake of marketing. Yes, I'm still looking at you, Bremont.
As for Tudor, a workhorse movement like a modified ETA is fitting with their roots and in my opinion, putting the in-house marketing in it doesn't justify moving upmarket for them.
Valid point about modifications. A ETA or similar can also be decorated 👍
I agree with other saying “it depends”. You could argue the Kinessi movements in Tudor are more valuable as they only increased the cost slightly over the previous model with better power reserve, ani-magnetic properties, etc.
Is the new IWC Mark XX with 120h caliber 3211 worth $750 more than the outgoing Mark XVIII with the standard movement?
Aside from very unique movements, I like the idea of in house movements. I like the idea of every part of a watch being built by the same people. With reputable companies you'll get the quality you expect either way, but the idea of an inhouse is more compelling to me. It's in the same vein of me baking my own bread and curing my own bacon and growing my own veggies to make a BLT. It's a great feeling to eat something you made every part of. There is a premium for that feeling however, so it also comes down to cost. For my bacon it's time, for the movement it's money. My bacon is fucking fantastic, I mean it just shits all over store bought. I smoke it and slice it Ashanti-thick. So maybe not the best comparison but hopefully you're picking up what I'm putting down.
I tend to agree with the general consensus in this thread. Most of the time, In-House is a vanity project for justifying horrendous service bills. Howeeeever... Owning a mechanical watch since the 1980s is kinda-sorta a vanity project in of itself (everyone here basically knows the deal). And there is something to be said about the inherent value of something being as deeply integrated as possible (with all its caveats as pointed out by other users above). And I will also say that, from time to time, In-house really is the thing that pushes the industry - take the Oris Caliber 400-series, for example. 10-year-everything + 120h of power reserve at a mid-tier price point?! If it weren't for those vanguard endeavors, nothing would have changed since the advent of the 2824...
Most in house movements are pretty bad but I would argue that inhouse investment is absolutely required on the high end of watch making to push performance characteristics in power reserve, accuracy, and complications. You can always modify an off the shelf but at the cost of increased weight and height.
The JLC caliber 939A worldtimer powers a 11mm high watch, with a day night indicator, second time zone, power reserve indicator and a PR of 70 hrs.
The Soprod 125 worldtimer powers a 13mm high watch (we'll use the Batavi Geograf but there are others), with just the worldtimer complication and a PR of 44hrs (I think).
Now, only you decide if that's worth the extra 7-10K the incremental functionality brings, but folks pay an incremental $250K for a Ferrari over an Audi (and $350K over a Camry) and they frankly do things in a rather similar manner.
But that, to me, is where there's real justification for in house. You're pushing physical boundaries.
Here's an excerpt from an article I wrote a long time ago:
Ebauche vs. In-House Movements
Some watchmaking brands make movements entirely in-house, from development to execution. However, the more common practice is to take an ébauche, which is a movement base, and then modify it as per the brand’s requirements. Modifications can range from decoration to adding modules for additional functionality to altering movement specs to meet specific accuracy and/or precision requirements.
ETA is Switzerland's largest movement manufacturer with countless big and small brands outsourcing calibers from them. Other famous Swiss movement makers that produce calibers for other companies include Sellita, Dubois Dépraz, and Ronda. What’s more, some watchmakers like Jaeger-LeCoultre and Piaget, not only make calibers for their own watches but also supply them to other renowned watch brands (Audemars Piguet, Patek Philippe, and Vacheron Constantin have all relied on Jaeger-LeCoultre movements). Rolex only began making in-house chronograph movements for the Daytona collection in 2000 — prior to that, the Swiss watchmaking giant relied on companies like Valjoux and Zenith to supply chronograph movements.
In today’s market, more and more customers expect luxury watch brands to develop in-house calibers (also known as manufacture movement) rather than fitting watches with modified ébauches.
However, it is important to remember that the Swiss watch industry was built upon a system of workshops specialized in certain skills — such as movement makers, case makers, dial makers, bracelet makers, and so on — which would then supply big brand names with watch components.
There is nothing inherently wrong with modified ébauche movements (this is an age-old tradition) but there is a growing trend today toward in-house movements with more and more brands building (or buying) state-of-the-art movement-making facilities.
I guess, like everything, the answer is "it depends". I'm not a snob and one of my favorite watches is my Oris Big Crown Pointer Date, which uses a Sellita SW-200. I've had to get it serviced once already and it was fairly quick because the movement is ubiquitous and any competent watchmaker can service it.
But I really like the in house movement in my Omega Aqua Terra because it gives me a) 17 more hours of power reserve compared to the Oris, b) anti-magnitism which is great for everyday life and airports and c) the co-axial escapement extends the service interval. The watch is 5 years old, still runs within COSC specifications, so I probably won't have to service it for another 3-5 years. That has real value to me.
But that movement does a lot to inovate and that's great 👌
Aside from very unique movements, I like the idea of in house movements. I like the idea of every part of a watch being built by the same people. With reputable companies you'll get the quality you expect either way, but the idea of an inhouse is more compelling to me. It's in the same vein of me baking my own bread and curing my own bacon and growing my own veggies to make a BLT. It's a great feeling to eat something you made every part of. There is a premium for that feeling however, so it also comes down to cost. For my bacon it's time, for the movement it's money. My bacon is fucking fantastic, I mean it just shits all over store bought. I smoke it and slice it Ashanti-thick. So maybe not the best comparison but hopefully you're picking up what I'm putting down.
I do agree as long as it's actual in house and it provides something better or different. My problem is when it's served like something inherently better when it's not and maybe it's still outsourced, just to a different company 👍
I tend to agree with the general consensus in this thread. Most of the time, In-House is a vanity project for justifying horrendous service bills. Howeeeever... Owning a mechanical watch since the 1980s is kinda-sorta a vanity project in of itself (everyone here basically knows the deal). And there is something to be said about the inherent value of something being as deeply integrated as possible (with all its caveats as pointed out by other users above). And I will also say that, from time to time, In-house really is the thing that pushes the industry - take the Oris Caliber 400-series, for example. 10-year-everything + 120h of power reserve at a mid-tier price point?! If it weren't for those vanguard endeavors, nothing would have changed since the advent of the 2824...
Totally agree!! If you want to make something better or different=make a in-house. If you want a standard movement but get the automatic respect in-house gets = don't bother.
Here's an excerpt from an article I wrote a long time ago:
Ebauche vs. In-House Movements
Some watchmaking brands make movements entirely in-house, from development to execution. However, the more common practice is to take an ébauche, which is a movement base, and then modify it as per the brand’s requirements. Modifications can range from decoration to adding modules for additional functionality to altering movement specs to meet specific accuracy and/or precision requirements.
ETA is Switzerland's largest movement manufacturer with countless big and small brands outsourcing calibers from them. Other famous Swiss movement makers that produce calibers for other companies include Sellita, Dubois Dépraz, and Ronda. What’s more, some watchmakers like Jaeger-LeCoultre and Piaget, not only make calibers for their own watches but also supply them to other renowned watch brands (Audemars Piguet, Patek Philippe, and Vacheron Constantin have all relied on Jaeger-LeCoultre movements). Rolex only began making in-house chronograph movements for the Daytona collection in 2000 — prior to that, the Swiss watchmaking giant relied on companies like Valjoux and Zenith to supply chronograph movements.
In today’s market, more and more customers expect luxury watch brands to develop in-house calibers (also known as manufacture movement) rather than fitting watches with modified ébauches.
However, it is important to remember that the Swiss watch industry was built upon a system of workshops specialized in certain skills — such as movement makers, case makers, dial makers, bracelet makers, and so on — which would then supply big brand names with watch components.
There is nothing inherently wrong with modified ébauche movements (this is an age-old tradition) but there is a growing trend today toward in-house movements with more and more brands building (or buying) state-of-the-art movement-making facilities.
To think of the nighmare the sea of vintage swiss watches would be if there wasn't recurring movement in most of them? Where would the parts come from now 😱
I guess, like everything, the answer is "it depends". I'm not a snob and one of my favorite watches is my Oris Big Crown Pointer Date, which uses a Sellita SW-200. I've had to get it serviced once already and it was fairly quick because the movement is ubiquitous and any competent watchmaker can service it.
But I really like the in house movement in my Omega Aqua Terra because it gives me a) 17 more hours of power reserve compared to the Oris, b) anti-magnitism which is great for everyday life and airports and c) the co-axial escapement extends the service interval. The watch is 5 years old, still runs within COSC specifications, so I probably won't have to service it for another 3-5 years. That has real value to me.
yeah but that's an Omega movement. Yema came out with their own "in-house" movement. It's basically an ETA clone...does it merit a premium?
In-house makes sense when the movement serves a specific purpose for a vision, thus keeping integrity for the sake of purpose.
I was watching a documentary about De Bethune manufacture from Revolution Watch on YouTube, and this really exemplifies it. https://youtu.be/Bv-jEyvfJIE
In-house for many brands mean working on a Lemania and modify heavily up to the watchmakers standard. Whilst there is nothing wrong with it, I find it a bit hard to digest when Patek does it and VC has its very own movement for the same - high - price.
In-house makes sense when the movement serves a specific purpose for a vision, thus keeping integrity for the sake of purpose.
I was watching a documentary about De Bethune manufacture from Revolution Watch on YouTube, and this really exemplifies it. https://youtu.be/Bv-jEyvfJIE
In-house for many brands mean working on a Lemania and modify heavily up to the watchmakers standard. Whilst there is nothing wrong with it, I find it a bit hard to digest when Patek does it and VC has its very own movement for the same - high - price.
I'll check it out 👍