So these are actually happening now (Grand Seiko homage watches)
Someone in a GS owners group shared this Chinese homage brand, Seestern, is releasing a blatant homage of the Grand Seiko SBGM221 GMT. I guess that means GS has now made it as a global luxury brand 🤔😂
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Ed Kwon
Humble watch collector, husband and dad from sunny California.
Member since
Last active: 3 hrs ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8QxIIz1yEsA
I mean, I built this one recently. I wanted lume on the watch hands, so I changed it up a little. But it's not too far gone to realize where the design came from. 😉
Sad thing is: It's an inexpensive build. I was able to do it just under $100.
Why is anyone surprised? The fact that people are surprised is more surprising.
As the owner of multiple GS watches, I find it more amusingly flattering than offensive 😂
Homage = Replica (kinda) lol
More water proof than the original! TBH if I was starting over watch collecting I'd prefer this than the Orient Bambino I original had. Happy to see more options for more people
Pity it doesn’t function like the GS, desk GMT not a traveler
Pity it doesn’t function like the GS, desk GMT not a traveler
Of course not, nobody would equip a traveler GMT movement in a watch that price
Of course not, nobody would equip a traveler GMT movement in a watch that price
It like a copy of a Chrono with buttons that don’t work. Similar to so called ExplorerII killers that don’t actually work the way the original does. So it has the same dial and that’s it. The Chinese are dropping in tourbillons for a few hundred, if they wanted to they can copy the traveler movement with ease
This isn't the first copy of a grand seiko on AliExpress seestern and rmalti have both done other versions
When chinese brands "homage" you, it's a badge of honor.
maybe now GS will lower prices…😂
"Get polishing lads" (in Chinese)
Replicas are made in Chinese factories and are a one-to-one clone. Homages are a bit different. You can be a watch snob and turn your nose up at them. That's okay. They're obviously not for you and that's also okay. I used to turn my nose up at them as well until I got my hands on one of them. I was shocked as to how well made it was. Not everyone can or wants to drop 5K on a watch. And that's also okay.
This isn’t an homage, it’s a knockoff; you don’t have to be a snob to have an ethical stance on the subject matter, and you can get a beautiful watch for far less than 1K so that argument is moot, as is the fact that they also knock off $400 — $600 Seikos. Shit would hit different if people stopped mislabeling them ‘homages’ and called them what they actually are.
This isn’t an homage, it’s a knockoff; you don’t have to be a snob to have an ethical stance on the subject matter, and you can get a beautiful watch for far less than 1K so that argument is moot, as is the fact that they also knock off $400 — $600 Seikos. Shit would hit different if people stopped mislabeling them ‘homages’ and called them what they actually are.
Who cares? If someone is buying a homage, Seiko wasn't likely to get their money anyway. If they were a threat, Seiko would order a cease and desist or just sue. Obviously this hasn't happened.
This isn’t an homage, it’s a knockoff; you don’t have to be a snob to have an ethical stance on the subject matter, and you can get a beautiful watch for far less than 1K so that argument is moot, as is the fact that they also knock off $400 — $600 Seikos. Shit would hit different if people stopped mislabeling them ‘homages’ and called them what they actually are.
These are knockoffs. These are fakes.
Seestern isn't passing themselves off as genuine. These are.
Edit: not my watches. A screengrab from Reddit.
Couple of homages up to 4 seem to be fair. Pass that you seem to like more replicas vs watches. Especially now with SO MANY options in the market at all price points.
You like this?
Why not buy this?
It has a beautiful movement comes at all budgets.
China has very good homages that don't look like a straight rip off and more like inspired designs.
Even San Martin is trying to have their own designs
For $220 why not support the favorites?
I just think over dozing on one thing kills the purpose of collecting. But hey to each their own and that's my two cents.
Who cares? If someone is buying a homage, Seiko wasn't likely to get their money anyway. If they were a threat, Seiko would order a cease and desist or just sue. Obviously this hasn't happened.
You seem to have missed the thrust of my argument. You said these were okay because people don’t want to drop 5K on a watch; I rebutted by saying you don’t need to drop even a third of that nor pick up these clomages to get a nice watch, making that argument a pointless one. You implied people who have a problem with these knockoffs are watch snobs, I rebutted saying many of us aren’t snobs but do take an ethical stance on it (for example, I’m an artist and designer by trade and have a strong stance on this, and have chatted with a member of this same group who’s a musician and has the same views). Who cares? Judging from the mixed responses people clearly do, but with a nuanced take: no one cares that Joe Bloggs wears Abibas — spend your money as you see fit — the distaste is more for the ‘brands’ themselves that look to make a quick buck plagiarizing (not homaging, which is a very different thing). Many enthusiasts of a subject matter will have a problem with plagiarisms of that same thing, whether it’s art, shoes, or watches. To be clear: I have no problem with homages and like quite a few watches that are…but the watch in question is not a homage, it’s a blatant knockoff. Your Hulk gif is OTT as no-one is raging over this, however on the topic of muscle bound men, this is more applicable to this topic, pulled from a sneaker group with this same debate:
I think this is a complicated topic if not even a philosophical. Yes, they are stealing original designs, and that quite 1:1. IMHO: Wearing a hommage doesn‘t feel like wearing the original.
But:
maybe some people choose the hommage over the original one, because they can’t afford it.
maybe some are so thrilled about the design of hommage that they will go for the original one day
The quality of Seestern / Sugess and San Martin is frightening good for that money. Never saw other watches at this price point with such regulated movements and overal build quality.
In car world they have this beautiful word that explains the situation accurately: replica.
Looks legit ...
You seem to have missed the thrust of my argument. You said these were okay because people don’t want to drop 5K on a watch; I rebutted by saying you don’t need to drop even a third of that nor pick up these clomages to get a nice watch, making that argument a pointless one. You implied people who have a problem with these knockoffs are watch snobs, I rebutted saying many of us aren’t snobs but do take an ethical stance on it (for example, I’m an artist and designer by trade and have a strong stance on this, and have chatted with a member of this same group who’s a musician and has the same views). Who cares? Judging from the mixed responses people clearly do, but with a nuanced take: no one cares that Joe Bloggs wears Abibas — spend your money as you see fit — the distaste is more for the ‘brands’ themselves that look to make a quick buck plagiarizing (not homaging, which is a very different thing). Many enthusiasts of a subject matter will have a problem with plagiarisms of that same thing, whether it’s art, shoes, or watches. To be clear: I have no problem with homages and like quite a few watches that are…but the watch in question is not a homage, it’s a blatant knockoff. Your Hulk gif is OTT as no-one is raging over this, however on the topic of muscle bound men, this is more applicable to this topic, pulled from a sneaker group with this same debate:
I think the "abibas"picture illustrates it fairly well. Many Chinese homage watches are good values "at the price". I looked at buying a Longines Spirit about a year ago, compared the original to the clomages. While the clomages were not bad watches, they were also fairly far from the original. You can only allow for limited degrees of modifications from your standard components to match the original before it becomes expensive.
But there is another aspect to it. Grand Seikos are fairly unique designs, and seeing clomages being advertised may make the design feel more common than it actually is.
You seem to have missed the thrust of my argument. You said these were okay because people don’t want to drop 5K on a watch; I rebutted by saying you don’t need to drop even a third of that nor pick up these clomages to get a nice watch, making that argument a pointless one. You implied people who have a problem with these knockoffs are watch snobs, I rebutted saying many of us aren’t snobs but do take an ethical stance on it (for example, I’m an artist and designer by trade and have a strong stance on this, and have chatted with a member of this same group who’s a musician and has the same views). Who cares? Judging from the mixed responses people clearly do, but with a nuanced take: no one cares that Joe Bloggs wears Abibas — spend your money as you see fit — the distaste is more for the ‘brands’ themselves that look to make a quick buck plagiarizing (not homaging, which is a very different thing). Many enthusiasts of a subject matter will have a problem with plagiarisms of that same thing, whether it’s art, shoes, or watches. To be clear: I have no problem with homages and like quite a few watches that are…but the watch in question is not a homage, it’s a blatant knockoff. Your Hulk gif is OTT as no-one is raging over this, however on the topic of muscle bound men, this is more applicable to this topic, pulled from a sneaker group with this same debate:
It's a complicated topic. Yes, these companies have copies these designs. Some of them are garbage. But, as someone below stated, the quality of some of these brands, such as San Martin and Sugess, can not be denied. I don't rank it at the same level as the theft of intellectual property seen with Midjourney does cobbling together artists' work to create it's own. I understand the artists' anger. My brother is a working graphic artist/animator and that shit terrifies and enrages him.
One problem with your argument is that "Abibas" is trying it's level best to deceive and misrepresent itself. Brands like San Martin are their own thing but are upfront with who they are and what they offer. Steinhart makes really fucking expensive, high end watches that are, let's face it, homages. Is Dan Henry a low down thief? Does he misrepresent himself?
Counterfeits exist. You can touch base with a Chinese dealer, tell them exactly what you want, and you can get a high quality replica that would fool the majority of people. I have a real problem with that. This is blatant theft of intellectual property. No question. It's so wrong, that you risk getting your replica getting stopped by customs. No thanks.
Would you put modders in the same camp? You could argue they are making frankenwatches. But you would be wrong. Again, they are upfront about it and don't misrepresent themselves or their product. This is how many get into watchmaking and offer a bespoke product the manufacturer could not or would not offer. Many microbrands offer something that might be similar, inspired by, but do not rip off the bigger makers, and offer excellent value for money.
You are welcome to your opinion, of course. If it is offensive to you and an affront to your integrity to pay for or own one, you should stand your ground. Perhaps your identity as an artist explains why you so vociferously defend your position. I have had long philosophical discussions about similar topics with my brother, so I see your point. Where I draw the line in the sand is based on intent and representation. Fakes made to deceive are abhorrent. I do not lump all these other brands in that same pile. Lastly, and I think it's most important, many that would buy these, including established microbrands, would never spend their hard earned money on higher end goods. So these companies would have never gotten their money anyway.
But I see your point. Your opinion is valid and you make good salient points. Our opinions are different.
And that is okay.
I think this is a complicated topic if not even a philosophical. Yes, they are stealing original designs, and that quite 1:1. IMHO: Wearing a hommage doesn‘t feel like wearing the original.
But:
maybe some people choose the hommage over the original one, because they can’t afford it.
maybe some are so thrilled about the design of hommage that they will go for the original one day
The quality of Seestern / Sugess and San Martin is frightening good for that money. Never saw other watches at this price point with such regulated movements and overal build quality.
Very good point. I used to ignore the china brand and just dismissing it as homages. But i recently got one, I love it. There is really nothing to hate about their watch for 200 USD. Good bracelets, regulated movement, awesome lume, applied indexes, good brushing and polishing technique.
I'm starting to think this would be a trend and one day they would grow beyond homages. And when that happens, I wonder if swiss watch is ready for them.
Im imaging it be Tesla Vs BYD.
It's a complicated topic. Yes, these companies have copies these designs. Some of them are garbage. But, as someone below stated, the quality of some of these brands, such as San Martin and Sugess, can not be denied. I don't rank it at the same level as the theft of intellectual property seen with Midjourney does cobbling together artists' work to create it's own. I understand the artists' anger. My brother is a working graphic artist/animator and that shit terrifies and enrages him.
One problem with your argument is that "Abibas" is trying it's level best to deceive and misrepresent itself. Brands like San Martin are their own thing but are upfront with who they are and what they offer. Steinhart makes really fucking expensive, high end watches that are, let's face it, homages. Is Dan Henry a low down thief? Does he misrepresent himself?
Counterfeits exist. You can touch base with a Chinese dealer, tell them exactly what you want, and you can get a high quality replica that would fool the majority of people. I have a real problem with that. This is blatant theft of intellectual property. No question. It's so wrong, that you risk getting your replica getting stopped by customs. No thanks.
Would you put modders in the same camp? You could argue they are making frankenwatches. But you would be wrong. Again, they are upfront about it and don't misrepresent themselves or their product. This is how many get into watchmaking and offer a bespoke product the manufacturer could not or would not offer. Many microbrands offer something that might be similar, inspired by, but do not rip off the bigger makers, and offer excellent value for money.
You are welcome to your opinion, of course. If it is offensive to you and an affront to your integrity to pay for or own one, you should stand your ground. Perhaps your identity as an artist explains why you so vociferously defend your position. I have had long philosophical discussions about similar topics with my brother, so I see your point. Where I draw the line in the sand is based on intent and representation. Fakes made to deceive are abhorrent. I do not lump all these other brands in that same pile. Lastly, and I think it's most important, many that would buy these, including established microbrands, would never spend their hard earned money on higher end goods. So these companies would have never gotten their money anyway.
But I see your point. Your opinion is valid and you make good salient points. Our opinions are different.
And that is okay.
You’re still conflating the term homage with a copy/knockoff and replica — all three aren’t the same thing, and until you accept that difference there won’t be a middle ground. Whether you’re trying to pass yourself off as the original (your replica example, Rolex vs ‘Rolex’) or using the exact/almost exact design with a different name just to avoid being lumped in the same category as their replica brothers (Grand Seiko vs ‘Seastern’) it’s still largely the same, and not in the same category as a true homage (for example, both the Steinhart Titanium GMT and the Seiko 5 GMT, which are both great homages to the Batman). I’ve included a photo of my personal Batman in the middle for reference. Compare these to the GS Shosho vs the Seastern GMT knockoff of it and the difference is obvious.
Getting into where we draw the line when it comes to homages is a different and complex discussion, but in this specific Seastern example (and many others) it’s simple and clear as day: change the name on that dial and it won’t be a debatable — no different from Abibas; that’s not an homage, it’s a copy. And it isn’t about quality or the lack thereof: many of us would look at these no differently than we’d look at a high-quality AAA *replica*, which would put the best San Martins to shame — they’re still Abibas. We can however agree to disagree my man, as I said earlier I have no issue with what another man chooses to collect — but in my book there’s just no justification for these, not on price, quality, or anything else…not when you can support other lower priced yet high-specced brands; truth is you buy these when you actually want a GS Shosho but don’t want to pay for it, nothing more…and if we’re being real, that’s the primary reason people buy replicas in the first place. Tangentially, a modder making SKX mods (often for the love of it) is not the same thing as an organization focused almost entirely on making near 1:1 copies just to turn a quick buck — but let’s not shift goalposts and stay on topic, which are clomages, specifically this Seastern one; modding is a different topic, as are homages.
Funny thing about all this is that I’m not even a GS fan. Anyway, you have your opinion and I have mine — wear what brings you joy, no matter what the next man thinks, that’s the important thing. Happy Sunday brother🍻
This is one of my favourite things about Grand Seiko. They don't copy, they know they will fail, they don't even try 🤣. Okay I saw one or two tries on AliExpress and other platforms, but they looked ridiculous from kilometers blindfolded. And in the same time we all have seen fake Rolexes that looked convincing even to experts.
You’re still conflating the term homage with a copy/knockoff and replica — all three aren’t the same thing, and until you accept that difference there won’t be a middle ground. Whether you’re trying to pass yourself off as the original (your replica example, Rolex vs ‘Rolex’) or using the exact/almost exact design with a different name just to avoid being lumped in the same category as their replica brothers (Grand Seiko vs ‘Seastern’) it’s still largely the same, and not in the same category as a true homage (for example, both the Steinhart Titanium GMT and the Seiko 5 GMT, which are both great homages to the Batman). I’ve included a photo of my personal Batman in the middle for reference. Compare these to the GS Shosho vs the Seastern GMT knockoff of it and the difference is obvious.
Getting into where we draw the line when it comes to homages is a different and complex discussion, but in this specific Seastern example (and many others) it’s simple and clear as day: change the name on that dial and it won’t be a debatable — no different from Abibas; that’s not an homage, it’s a copy. And it isn’t about quality or the lack thereof: many of us would look at these no differently than we’d look at a high-quality AAA *replica*, which would put the best San Martins to shame — they’re still Abibas. We can however agree to disagree my man, as I said earlier I have no issue with what another man chooses to collect — but in my book there’s just no justification for these, not on price, quality, or anything else…not when you can support other lower priced yet high-specced brands; truth is you buy these when you actually want a GS Shosho but don’t want to pay for it, nothing more…and if we’re being real, that’s the primary reason people buy replicas in the first place. Tangentially, a modder making SKX mods (often for the love of it) is not the same thing as an organization focused almost entirely on making near 1:1 copies just to turn a quick buck — but let’s not shift goalposts and stay on topic, which are clomages, specifically this Seastern one; modding is a different topic, as are homages.
Funny thing about all this is that I’m not even a GS fan. Anyway, you have your opinion and I have mine — wear what brings you joy, no matter what the next man thinks, that’s the important thing. Happy Sunday brother🍻
That's why I support microbrands. Heritage is important. I don't mind when watches take inspiration from other brands as long as it isn't blatant. I used to feel exactly as you did. As I grew older, I've softened a little.
But I do see where you are coming from and can respect it. 🍻
That's why I support microbrands. Heritage is important. I don't mind when watches take inspiration from other brands as long as it isn't blatant. I used to feel exactly as you did. As I grew older, I've softened a little.
But I do see where you are coming from and can respect it. 🍻
Hehe, I haven’t softened in this regard … and we’re not that far apart either: I’m flirting with 50 myself 😉
Have a good night brother!
I built this exact watch for less than $100. Surpised when dial showed up with GS logo...Made for myself...I will not sale. Dial was 31mm. Case was for 31.7mm. You can see a small gap. I have found correct case so will be replacing.