ETA quality is in question
This post is nothing new with Tissot using plastic in their powermatic movements. I have the watch pictured and it runs perfectly. Here is the issue. Does all Swatch brands using ETA movements have plastic in their movements? It has me wondering about the quality of Swatch Brands. I like Hamilton, but with the new Khaki Field Expedition costing over $1,000; does it contain plastic parts too? Then another question is when they service the movement to they toss your old movement and install a new movement. Most people who get into mechanical watches like the ideal of having it for a lifetime. This act tarnishes the quality and longevity of ETA as a luxury and work horse movement brand. What are your thoughts on ETA or The Swatch Group?
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I don't really have a problem with movements being replaceable rather than serviceable. Even good movements can be bought cheaper than a service by some brands. It's a heart transplant but the soul is the same as it ever was.
Any Swatch brand with 80hr power reserve on the more affordable end of the price spectrum probably has plastic parts and is a version of the Powermatic80 under a different name. Could be wrong.
My issue is that Swatch Group now force you to use them to service your watch because they won't supply parts to independent watchmakers.
Once Swatch Group decide your watch is "out of support" it won't be serviceable - they already refuse to service many vintage watches.
You've got nothing to worry about. The Powermatic movement uses a silicon escapement which requires less servicing and no lubrication. Synthetics, plastics, and polymers today can be stronger than metals. That's why even car engines have plastic parts today. And not all ETA movements have synthetic parts. The H-10 and Powermatic are derived from the older ETA 2824-2. The Hamilton version uses the traditional 2824 escapement which is why it is a 25 jewel movement and the Powermatic is a 23 jewel. Both are meant to be replaced and not really serviced, and will outlast the classic 2824.
Look for C07.XXX numbers on the Caliber if you want to avoid plastic parts:
https://calibercorner.com/eta-caliber-c07-xxx/
Also, the servicing goes as follows: you come to Tissot, they remove the movement and plop in another one. Your movement goes into inspection and if it is reasonably repairable, then it is repaired and regulated and then another person who comes to Tissot for service receives it. Also, your "recently serviced" watch got most probably another serviced movement, not a new one.
Also, the khaki field expedition uses a Hamilton H-10 movement, which is actually a C07.611, so no plastic parts.
This is how terrible rumors get spread.
I suspect the movement swapping is about getting things through the service centers faster, rather than about the materials used in the movement.
A plastic part can be replaced as easily as a metal one, and yes, metal parts get replaced in servicing. After a few services there will likely be many new parts in any movement, regardless of who does it or where it's done.
I'm actually curious about this one. What if the C07.111 just works? I'm not sure we have enough data on whether this works or not. I think some Tissot owners are simply part of an experiment.
If we are talking Swiss labor, the movement will most likely be tossed. The swatch group has been toying with the concept of a disposable watch for a while.
I suspect the movement swapping is about getting things through the service centers faster, rather than about the materials used in the movement.
A plastic part can be replaced as easily as a metal one, and yes, metal parts get replaced in servicing. After a few services there will likely be many new parts in any movement, regardless of who does it or where it's done.
Correct, plastic isn't easier to replace. I suspect that the plastic escapement will lead to longer service intervals.
The Swatch Group is the patron saint of disposable watches. LOL
I have (and have had) numerous watches with the powermatic 80 and none has given a moment’s problem and all have kept accurate time.
The silicone escapement doesn't wear out as quickly as its metal counterpart. And as said above, no lubrication is required for it. I don't see the problem. 😀
You've got nothing to worry about. The Powermatic movement uses a silicon escapement which requires less servicing and no lubrication. Synthetics, plastics, and polymers today can be stronger than metals. That's why even car engines have plastic parts today. And not all ETA movements have synthetic parts. The H-10 and Powermatic are derived from the older ETA 2824-2. The Hamilton version uses the traditional 2824 escapement which is why it is a 25 jewel movement and the Powermatic is a 23 jewel. Both are meant to be replaced and not really serviced, and will outlast the classic 2824.
If I’m not mistaken if Swatch did decide to stop service on the PM80 isn’t a 2824, or one of the numerous copies, a direct replacement?
Seiko has used plastic parts in their movements since the 60s and no one takes issue with that, nor do they affect reliability or accuracy. So what’s the problem?
The current commotion relates to the use of molded polymer pallet forks and escape wheels in certain ETA movements, and how they are the spawn of the devil. Someone brought up the fact that crystalline silicon hairsprings have been used successfully for years, and have the advantage of being entirely immune to the effects of magnetism. Then the word silicone appeared in the conversation. Silicone is an elastomer made from silicon, and aside from seals, has no application in a watch — to my knowledge.
Yeah, that's what I was going at. Words are being twisted, misinterpreted and fairy tales are being created around this topic.
The actual chemical composition of silicon hairsprings, etc., is a closely guarded trade secret. So how can you make that claim?
Regular silicon wafers have elements like boron, arsenic, phosphorous and antimony mixed in with silicon. These materials are not equal but do give us some hints as to what is in their compositions. Sure they need to add something to increase flexibility but are those polymers?
BTW, the original discussion regards plastic, so….
Never mind.
Ok, I think some clarification is called for here. Some of the confusion is my fault and I apologize for that.
To begin with, my first comment mixed up the terminology, i.e., I said silicone instead of silicon. My bad.
Secondly, I was under the mistaken impression that the escapement wheel was silicon, not the hairspring. My fault again. I am not an expert on Tissot movements, and so reading all of these comments has led to a small amount of confusion on my part. Again, that's my bad.
As for the composition, I wasn't referring to the hairspring specifically. If you Google "is silicone plastic?" (remember, I was unknowingly using the wrong term) you get the following at the top of your search:
After going back, and re-reading everything, and after Googling several articles on Tissot's Powermatic movements, I now understand that the escapement is plastic, and the hairspring is silicon.
But I still fail to understand how having a plastic wheel that won't rust, and a silicon hairspring that needs no lubrication, is a bad thing. I think people are getting way too worked up about this whole topic. 🤣
P.S. I found this webpage quite helpful in clearing up my confusion:
https://calibercorner.com/tissot-caliber-powermatic-80/
I've been in the automotive industry for 30 years lol and can show you pics of those sold called reliable and efficient cars with plastic parts. 😂 They make my service department very profitable.
Right... Everything was better when we were younger, including cars... NOT. I know several engineers who have worked on your favorite cars (have a friend who even works at AMG) and these gentlemen want to make the best machines in the world. The horse power figures, the creature comforts have gotten amazing... But Yea, it's all plastic junk so who cares 🫣
It is my understanding that the PRX has the .111 movement with plastic bits but the watch pictured has a premium .811 Silicium movement with no plastic bits.
Right... Everything was better when we were younger, including cars... NOT. I know several engineers who have worked on your favorite cars (have a friend who even works at AMG) and these gentlemen want to make the best machines in the world. The horse power figures, the creature comforts have gotten amazing... But Yea, it's all plastic junk so who cares 🫣
"If we wanted creature comforts we would all be wearing an apple watch"
My garage is full of classics that are more analog. No power brakes, no power steering—just me and the car.
It's not just about horsepower; it's about power-to-weight ratios. I would much rather drive my 1980 911, in which I have deleted the heating system, ac unit, stereo, carpet, insulation, power sunroof, and original Bosch fuel injection for quad carbs. The smell of fuel in the air... oh yeah!
I can work on all of them myself and don't need a computer to tell me what's wrong with them! Could I buy a new Porsche 911? Sure, do I want one? No
"If we wanted creature comforts we would all be wearing an apple watch"
My garage is full of classics that are more analog. No power brakes, no power steering—just me and the car.
It's not just about horsepower; it's about power-to-weight ratios. I would much rather drive my 1980 911, in which I have deleted the heating system, ac unit, stereo, carpet, insulation, power sunroof, and original Bosch fuel injection for quad carbs. The smell of fuel in the air... oh yeah!
I can work on all of them myself and don't need a computer to tell me what's wrong with them! Could I buy a new Porsche 911? Sure, do I want one? No
Sorry, I read your post and entered into a 1984 yellow 911 trance.
"If we wanted creature comforts we would all be wearing an apple watch"
My garage is full of classics that are more analog. No power brakes, no power steering—just me and the car.
It's not just about horsepower; it's about power-to-weight ratios. I would much rather drive my 1980 911, in which I have deleted the heating system, ac unit, stereo, carpet, insulation, power sunroof, and original Bosch fuel injection for quad carbs. The smell of fuel in the air... oh yeah!
I can work on all of them myself and don't need a computer to tell me what's wrong with them! Could I buy a new Porsche 911? Sure, do I want one? No
That's cool man, do you. Doesn't mean it's more reliable, just means you have a preference. Enjoy your 911. 👍🏽
It is an OK movement. No issues as long as you know the shortcomings like any movement has. If you want the dissection details watch these videos
https://youtu.be/0VKoZ_Bdd7M?si=rDfEXHcKxJV-WeN4
https://youtu.be/GAzywe09fE4?si=YcfbwcLNmwFtNNOh
Ok, I think some clarification is called for here. Some of the confusion is my fault and I apologize for that.
To begin with, my first comment mixed up the terminology, i.e., I said silicone instead of silicon. My bad.
Secondly, I was under the mistaken impression that the escapement wheel was silicon, not the hairspring. My fault again. I am not an expert on Tissot movements, and so reading all of these comments has led to a small amount of confusion on my part. Again, that's my bad.
As for the composition, I wasn't referring to the hairspring specifically. If you Google "is silicone plastic?" (remember, I was unknowingly using the wrong term) you get the following at the top of your search:
After going back, and re-reading everything, and after Googling several articles on Tissot's Powermatic movements, I now understand that the escapement is plastic, and the hairspring is silicon.
But I still fail to understand how having a plastic wheel that won't rust, and a silicon hairspring that needs no lubrication, is a bad thing. I think people are getting way too worked up about this whole topic. 🤣
Sort of like manganese and magnesium. 😂
Sort of like manganese and magnesium. 😂
Exactly! 🤣
Ok, so after watching Max's video in @cota123 's comment above, I may be changing my mind about the plastic parts. If the purpose behind the plastic parts is disposability, then that is a negative in my book.
"If we wanted creature comforts we would all be wearing an apple watch"
My garage is full of classics that are more analog. No power brakes, no power steering—just me and the car.
It's not just about horsepower; it's about power-to-weight ratios. I would much rather drive my 1980 911, in which I have deleted the heating system, ac unit, stereo, carpet, insulation, power sunroof, and original Bosch fuel injection for quad carbs. The smell of fuel in the air... oh yeah!
I can work on all of them myself and don't need a computer to tell me what's wrong with them! Could I buy a new Porsche 911? Sure, do I want one? No
What a beauty! 🤩
Ok, so after watching Max's video in @cota123 's comment above, I may be changing my mind about the plastic parts. If the purpose behind the plastic parts is disposability, then that is a negative in my book.
@Max what is your current opinion on the PRX?
@Max what is your current opinion on the PRX?
Somewhat better than a fashion watch 😅