Seeking your grail? Bound to fail.
When I first joined WC a few weeks ago, I was immediately struck by a few things that were much different than on my previous forum.
One, WC is much more democratic. There are significantly more posts about microbrands and less expensive pieces. That is awesome. This hobby should be fun for anyone's budget and WC proves that it is.
Two, and this is perhaps related to the first point, so many Crunchers are talking about grails! This makes me think that most of them are relatively new to collecting. I would estimate less than two years deep.
I'll admit that when I first started, I was just as naive. I had one or two "grails" that I thought would be the ultimate watch for me. I read review after review of the Cartier Tank and the Omega Speedmaster Professional. I spend hours looking at photos and videos of them. I would even zoom into photos of them on my phone to mimic their dimensions and place it on my wrist to visualize my "grail" IRL. Comment below if you've done this. Be honest, now.
But finally, with some good fortune, I was able to acquire both of these pieces. Guess what? I have since sold them both!
Like it or not, this hobby is deeply embedded into our late-capitalist, marketing-saturated society. In this environment, no watch will ever be so attractive and so special that it will blind you from all other pieces.
Let me be clear. You don't have grail watches, or a grail watch, you have watch crushes. Sure, some of these crushes are more expensive than others. But even in a hypothetical situation where you had an unlimited budget to purchase any single piece - say a vintage Patek Perpetual Calendar or Lange Datograph - I guarantee that each and everyone of you would eventually develop a new watch crush.
At the end of the day, you will continue to develop new watch crushes as long as you stay on forums like these that rabidly consume hundreds of new and vintage references each week. How could you not?
The only aspect from the concept of grails that I do agree with is finality. At some point, the endless consumption and obsession should come to a healthy end. That's why I prefer the term exit watch, which fully admits that I will still develop new watch crushes but that I have made a conscious decision that I am at a stasis in my collection. Is there another "grail" piece out there that I would love to own? Sure, there are tons: the Breguet Classique 7147, the Cartier Tank Cintre; the JLC Master Perpetual Calendar; the Zenith Chronomaster Original; a vintage Breitling Navtimer 806 with hella patina; the Lange Saxonia Thin Aventurine; the Lange Datograph, the Lange Odysseus - let's get real, essentially the entire Lange catalogue.
See? There is no end! Nothing illustrates this point more than this: It was only Monday that boldly announced by exit watch right here on WC. I have to admit that I have since been googling that new award-winning Raymond Weil Millesime small seconds with unduly hungry eyes. "You do need a less expensive beater" my internal voice coquettishly purrs.
So take my word for it, there is no such thing as a grail. You have crushes and maybe, just maybe, if you are strong enough, you might one day acquire your exit watch.
But grail? That's just a made up marketing word to help you pull the trigger on your next purchase. Or better yet, to justify it to your partner.
Happy to provide decisive advice about your collection while being paralyzed in deliberation about mine. "The moral sense in mortals is the duty. We have to pay on mortal sense of beauty." Vladimir Na...
Well said, Sir. 👏
‘Grail’, like ‘homage’, is one of those words that watch nerds have adopted and corrupted to mean whatever they want it to mean.
My thoughts about the WC community exactly, since my wife sits opposite me each morning over strong coffees and the morning paper, she has tired of hearing me voice sentiments that you just posted. I was able to satisfy my curiosity during the early years of my hobby for higher horology so understand perfectly what you just summed up. During recent months, I purchased a 3k cad watch as well as one that cost almost 30k because I remain curious but also understand that at some point, I am just buying different watches and should stop.
Or people are using the term wrong.
A "grail" is called that after the Holy Grail that, so far, does not exist. The chalice or cup that Jesus supposedly drank from at the last supper. Something one of a kind, rare, difficult, and priceless.
To call an item that's easily obtained, not limited edition, not discontinued a "grail" is just weird to me. I am not saying that $10,000 or $20,000 or $50,000 isn't a lot of money to many people. I'm saying that quite literally millions of people make enough money to just go buy one this afternoon with easy of purchase and a gift bag. That's not a grail
A grail is that sold out limited run out of production piece. It's that unusual watch someone you know had in 1983 and you're trying to find it. It's the one of one or the one of ten. It's the first number peice. A grail is rare, it's weird, you've searched for years and even money can't seem to find it. Doesn't necessarily mean it's crazy expensive, but it does mean value should have gone up since it was made. Japan only run of a limited number g-shock and you've got to have it but it's now 10x original price. That's a grail. A Cartier Tank? There are tons of those everywhere
Agree with the gist of your post. The ONE PERFECT WATCH does not exist. But i do think people can find / buy their 'grail watch', the one they always dreamt about. And i think most peeps (at least on this forum) are mature enough to both realise there is no one perfect watch (not even their grail) AND that the concept of an 'exit watch' is even more elusive than a grail watch...there's always another one out there, singing its siren song :-)
To me, a a grail should be the watch which you'll never own. By its very nature it should be a mythical thing which probably doesn't even exist, or a MacGuffin in a way which leads you to buy other watches which seem to be it but actually aren't. I wish I had a grail. I've tried to turn watches into grails, but never succeeded because they obviously weren't meant to be grails in the first place.
I've got my exit watch though. Actually I've bought 5 exit watches over the last year. 😉
Exactly. When I think 'grail' - I think Patek Grand Complication or a Jaeger LeCoultre Duometre Spherotourbillon Limited Edition. Meaning, that the only way I'd obtain it was if the gods wanted me to have it, which they don't.
Excellent post! Saved so I can remind myself of this in the future.
Good words good words!
Do people still say “hundo p”? Hundo P.
Well said, Sir. 👏
My"grail" watch in other words favourite is an inexpensive citizen that runs in an wco drive so I would agree with the above statement and what you have said, "well said" I believe this hobbies is personal and can fit anyone's budget.
As all in life the search for "grail" watch is fluid, flexible and perpetual, hence changes over time due to diff reasons ( preference, funds, time, design ... )
I think grail is a bad word, as I said in my post, a better word would be goal. I was lucky that I did enough research that I have 2 of my goals already checked off and I honestly don't find myself wanting to get rid of them or replace them, but that's not to say I might not get something similar, but if something was different enough I might be tempted.
I'm actually not sure if ive found my grail or not. So far my casio and wise are so perfect that even far more luxurious pieces haven't interested me as I'm happy to stop where I am.
But I always though the idea of a grail was a watch you would pine for but never be able to obtain? Guess it just depends on how you define grail
I think that "watch crush" is a more accurate term than grail. I always say that I have "temporary infatuations".
Back in the dark ages 50s I was active in a off shoot of the Masons . It’s history centered around the Knights Templars and their quest to regain the holy land and the grail. So later when I began collecting I thought of a grail as something that may or may not exist. Today I think of a grail in terms of a watch that I will never have. I have plenty of those . So I guess it comes down to who is using the term. For me it’s a watch made by R. Smith that probably doesn’t exist now only in a dream.
Watch crushes is exactly it. I'm definitely in the exit watch camp. I've had enough playtime with cheap and cheerful budget watches to know what I like and what fits my lifestyle and wardrobe. So I'm editing my collection and looking for the last watch I'll need to cover a given use or dress code. For me that means a diver, a field watch, a dress watch, and a G Shock, all solar. The plus one to this party is a slim, cheap Casio to wear around the house. That's it.
I have no desire to bother with mechanicals that need service and can't handle motorcycle rides and music gigs. I don't even want to have to change batteries every couple years! My minimum specs are a stainless case, a sapphire crystal and 10 ATM so that every watch can handle real use and there are neither pillow princess nor the need for "beaters". With my small wrists and the state of solar watches, there will be some compromises, probably for a few years, until I find that last watch and anything that was holding that space in my collection gets jettisoned.
The process will take some time and there will be some difficult goodbyes, but at the end I'll have a lean, mean collection that's perfect for me.
The Lange on your picture is surely on my list of watch crushes 🤗
You're a grizzled old watch veteran I see, hah. Have you started falling into the trap/joy of going into the really high end independents that focus on hand crafting or finishing most of the parts? There are definitely levels to the watch hobby. However, you need crazy money or courage to forego mainstream to go deep there. Spend $20k on a young buck from south Korea who hand makes and finishes everything except for the movement? Hmm. Or spend $150k on an amazing chronograph from two bros from Amsterdam? Err..maybe?
It's just another type of consumerism of course, but it feels different because of the hand crafted nature. As long as we don't delude ourselves or become irresponsible, to each his own I say.
I've only seen this kind of thing a few times in Talking Watches or similar videos. Thankfully, it does nothing for me. Not like I could afford them anyhow.
‘Grail’, like ‘homage’, is one of those words that watch nerds have adopted and corrupted to mean whatever they want it to mean.
Well said, English Archer, although there can be a such thing as a grail watch. A grail is an objective of a prolonged endeavor. If one endeavors to obtain a watch, and it is in fact a prolonged endeavor, then that is a grail watch.
It's getting so that every word is being corrupted so that it means whatever the speaker or writer wants it to mean.
I think grail is a bad word, as I said in my post, a better word would be goal. I was lucky that I did enough research that I have 2 of my goals already checked off and I honestly don't find myself wanting to get rid of them or replace them, but that's not to say I might not get something similar, but if something was different enough I might be tempted.
"Grail" is a good word, with a simple and even elegant definition. A grail is an objective of a prolonged endeavor. If someone makes a concerted effort to get a watch and it takes a long time to do it, then that may be called a grail watch.
What's bad is people making up "their" definition, not just of the word "grail" but for virtually any word these days.
As all in life the search for "grail" watch is fluid, flexible and perpetual, hence changes over time due to diff reasons ( preference, funds, time, design ... )
The search may be fluid, but the word "grail" is not. Words have specific meaning. A grail is an objective of a prolonged endeavor. Words are the opposite of fluid. Words are solid. In 2023, not only the word "grail" but many other words and many other formerly solid concepts are being changed by those who want to tear things down. But words meaning "whatever" won't ever work. Because you can't build on fluid. You have to build on something that's solid.
The search may be fluid, but the word "grail" is not. Words have specific meaning. A grail is an objective of a prolonged endeavor. Words are the opposite of fluid. Words are solid. In 2023, not only the word "grail" but many other words and many other formerly solid concepts are being changed by those who want to tear things down. But words meaning "whatever" won't ever work. Because you can't build on fluid. You have to build on something that's solid.
Words are anything but solid. Words come; words go; and words change meaning.
https://ideas.ted.com/20-words-that-once-meant-something-very-different/
Words are anything but solid. Words come; words go; and words change meaning.
https://ideas.ted.com/20-words-that-once-meant-something-very-different/
Thank you for the 20 words article. Pretty good article! Of course some words come and go, but not many. And not quickly. And some of the examples in the 20 words article changed a shade or two of meaning simply from careless use, "unique" being one of them. It was also news to me that unique can simply mean unusual. Yes, if one is lazy.
And some words naturally deserve to go, because the things they describe don't exist any more. That's healthy. Some new words, mainly in pop culture spring up and are freely adopted by many, and thus come into regular use. That can be fun. But if any word can just mean anything anyone wants it to mean, and those wanting to quickly change it have the power and force to do so, that's dangerous. I used to think that a vaccination described a very specific thing for example.
It's so tiresome. Where I live, it's this: If you disagree with someone but don't have a sound argument, intimidate them. If that doesn't work and you still have to have the debate or argument, simply change the meaning of the core terms, making the argument and sometimes meaning itself impossible.
I spoke carelessly myself, because in 2023 "Words are anything but solid" is in fact an accurate statement. We can quibble about shades of meaning with words like unique and others on the twenty word list, but if we are forced to change the meaning of words like 'man' and 'woman' that's wrong. Or it's right. Or it's still wrong, but "wrong" now means "right". Well, why is that? It's because we say so, and we have the power to enforce it. You're under arrest. But I'm innocent! We've just changed the meaning of innocent. You're guilty.
To end on a lighter note, assuming the stuff at the end of the previous paragraph doesn't prevail, I'll bet you a giant burger that a hundred years from now someone could read both of our posts and the words' meanings won't have changed enough that they can't understand them.
"Grail" is a good word, with a simple and even elegant definition. A grail is an objective of a prolonged endeavor. If someone makes a concerted effort to get a watch and it takes a long time to do it, then that may be called a grail watch.
What's bad is people making up "their" definition, not just of the word "grail" but for virtually any word these days.
That is true, but I think it gets associated with the holy grail, a unicorn, with unrealistic expectations of ever acquiring it. They say never meet your hero's for a reason and I think the same applies here, if you hype up a watch too much it will rarely live up to expectations.
Words are anything but solid. Words come; words go; and words change meaning.
https://ideas.ted.com/20-words-that-once-meant-something-very-different/
I've always wondered why it's called minced meat in mince pies, now I know, thank you.
That is true, but I think it gets associated with the holy grail, a unicorn, with unrealistic expectations of ever acquiring it. They say never meet your hero's for a reason and I think the same applies here, if you hype up a watch too much it will rarely live up to expectations.
Great stuff, and in just two sentences. "Grail" and "Holy Grail" are two different things. I used to think they were the same. But as you pointed out, over time they've become interchangeable, and while it's possible, though arduous to find a grail, the Holy Grail is " . . . associated with . . . unrealistic expectations of ever acquiring it." Well said. And no mere watch (or even a spectacular one) can live up to Holy Grail status.
I've always wondered why it's called minced meat in mince pies, now I know, thank you.
It’s called mincemeat because the original 16th Century recipe called for spiced lamb with fruit in the pie.
It sounds odd, but it’s not so different to a tagine, but served in a crust.
Over the centuries we’ve just stopped using the meat, but kept the name
Thank you for the 20 words article. Pretty good article! Of course some words come and go, but not many. And not quickly. And some of the examples in the 20 words article changed a shade or two of meaning simply from careless use, "unique" being one of them. It was also news to me that unique can simply mean unusual. Yes, if one is lazy.
And some words naturally deserve to go, because the things they describe don't exist any more. That's healthy. Some new words, mainly in pop culture spring up and are freely adopted by many, and thus come into regular use. That can be fun. But if any word can just mean anything anyone wants it to mean, and those wanting to quickly change it have the power and force to do so, that's dangerous. I used to think that a vaccination described a very specific thing for example.
It's so tiresome. Where I live, it's this: If you disagree with someone but don't have a sound argument, intimidate them. If that doesn't work and you still have to have the debate or argument, simply change the meaning of the core terms, making the argument and sometimes meaning itself impossible.
I spoke carelessly myself, because in 2023 "Words are anything but solid" is in fact an accurate statement. We can quibble about shades of meaning with words like unique and others on the twenty word list, but if we are forced to change the meaning of words like 'man' and 'woman' that's wrong. Or it's right. Or it's still wrong, but "wrong" now means "right". Well, why is that? It's because we say so, and we have the power to enforce it. You're under arrest. But I'm innocent! We've just changed the meaning of innocent. You're guilty.
To end on a lighter note, assuming the stuff at the end of the previous paragraph doesn't prevail, I'll bet you a giant burger that a hundred years from now someone could read both of our posts and the words' meanings won't have changed enough that they can't understand them.
It’s a sure sign that if someone is arguing the semantics of the individual words you are using (or they are using), rather than the meaning of the complete sentence, they don’t have a valid argument.
The search may be fluid, but the word "grail" is not. Words have specific meaning. A grail is an objective of a prolonged endeavor. Words are the opposite of fluid. Words are solid. In 2023, not only the word "grail" but many other words and many other formerly solid concepts are being changed by those who want to tear things down. But words meaning "whatever" won't ever work. Because you can't build on fluid. You have to build on something that's solid.
Aldough I agree the word has specific meaning it can still change over time. My grail watch today is not the same as it was 10 years ago, also grail can be diff thing to diff people. So yes, still stand behind my thesis that grail watch as such can change over time
It’s a sure sign that if someone is arguing the semantics of the individual words you are using (or they are using), rather than the meaning of the complete sentence, they don’t have a valid argument.
Bingo. Excellent. The only thing wrong with this is I wish I'd said it first.