Ranking historic brands
Dear All,
Not too long ago I had a discussion on one of the forums about two 7750 based pilot fleiger chronographs - one from Laco and the other from IWC. Somebody raised an argument that IWC version is preferable because IWC is such a bad ass company who makes perpetual calendars, jumping hours etc. So i started thinking how bad ass iwc actually is. So i want to quote unquote rank the so called 2nd tier brands. Ok so we know that for better or worse, PP, VC, AP, ALS are tier 1. Breguet is probably up there with them. Also, I am specifically excluding independents and companies like FPJ...
So let's rank EUROPEAN, LUXURY, HIGH HOROLOGY companies (meaning NO SEIKO, CASIO, Timex or Hamilton spam please ) such as GP, JLC, Zenith, IWC, Panerai, Breitling, Omega, Longines, GO, Cartier, Jacquet Droz, Piaget, Blancpain, Ulysse Nardin. I'm leaving out rolex, baume mercier, tissot, Hamilton, seiko, Harry Winston and Roger dubuis on purpose. I want LEGACY brands with origins in at least 19th century, high horology, and European based... This unfortunately also means axing Oris but alas!
Welcome to my WatchCrunch profile.
It's all 100% subjective.
What one person considers critical to a brand's "ranking" might be entirely unimportant to someone else.
That said my ranking:
Timex - Founded in 1854, still active, embraced quartz and sells watch for normal people who actually use their watch to tell time rather than signal status.
The rest...
It's all 100% subjective.
What one person considers critical to a brand's "ranking" might be entirely unimportant to someone else.
That said my ranking:
Timex - Founded in 1854, still active, embraced quartz and sells watch for normal people who actually use their watch to tell time rather than signal status.
The rest...
Would you consider timex tier 2? I don't think they play in the luxury segment
Seiko was founded in 1881 so my vote goes to them.
Would you consider timex tier 2? I don't think they play in the luxury segment
You never specified luxury, just legacy brands. 😉
My "ranking" was more to point out the absurdity of trying to rank brands, due to every individual collector valuing different things.
You never specified luxury, just legacy brands. 😉
My "ranking" was more to point out the absurdity of trying to rank brands, due to every individual collector valuing different things.
I thought it was pretty obvious that i was referring to luxury watches, i mean i didnt even mention Tissot.... Rankings arw subjective but nevertheless fone all the time. You tally up those subjective opinions and get an idea of who thinks what
Seiko was founded in 1881 so my vote goes to them.
They are not luxury. That's why I specifically excluded Seiko
Seiko was founded in 1881 so my vote goes to them.
You take seiko over JLC? Seriously? Lmao
Seiko was founded in 1881...
I thought it was pretty obvious that i was referring to luxury watches, i mean i didnt even mention Tissot.... Rankings arw subjective but nevertheless fone all the time. You tally up those subjective opinions and get an idea of who thinks what
I suppose...
On a watch forum like this you'll get pretty standard answers based on videos and articles written by people with strong opinions. Hence the flood of "GoD tIeR" when referencing Casio...
Most enthusiasts haven't handled or owned enough of the "tier 2" luxury brands to form their own opinions.
I suppose...
On a watch forum like this you'll get pretty standard answers based on videos and articles written by people with strong opinions. Hence the flood of "GoD tIeR" when referencing Casio...
Most enthusiasts haven't handled or owned enough of the "tier 2" luxury brands to form their own opinions.
That's true
Omega > everyone else 😁👍🏻
I hate the word luxury,
But in terms of high horology I would put the following brands in tier 2 - GP, JLC, piaget
Tier 3 - zenith, blancpain, UN
Tier 4 - omega, breitling, iwc, panerai, GO, Cartier
Jacquet droz is hard to put into a group as they are more of a fashion statement in my opinion
Like your original post 🤣 which doesn't make any sense, how do you want them ranking?
How many groups? Why mention the word luxury to the guy with the timex? Why state legacy brands with an origin in the 19th century and then not include brands like seiko, tissot which were founded in 1881 and 1853
You take seiko over JLC? Seriously? Lmao
All day long.
I suppose...
On a watch forum like this you'll get pretty standard answers based on videos and articles written by people with strong opinions. Hence the flood of "GoD tIeR" when referencing Casio...
Most enthusiasts haven't handled or owned enough of the "tier 2" luxury brands to form their own opinions.
Do I get bonus points for pointing out that Laco was once owned by Timex?
Arguments about "tiers" shed more heat than light.
He edited the post after I replied... See my second reply for the reason as to why.
Thanks for coming out... 😉
Not only after yours. After several other people couldn't get to the gyst of what I was sayoy, I had to break it down into more details and specifically highlight that certain brands were excluded. Even then some people managed to screw up the responses
This thread has been nothing short of the crapshoot I thought it would be when I saw the title.
It’s probably been said, but the watch market now, rather than pre 1970, is not the same, it is hugely monopolised. Names are just that now… names. The Blancpain name was bought in 1982. Jaquet Droz is nothing to do with the original family. Breitling was bought by Sicura outright. These are just tidbits of information that form a whole, and nobody really bothers about this sh*t before diving in two-footed tackle style. I, and a small number of others, will try and point people in the right direction, but nobody gives a cr*p if it isn’t Seiko or Tudor (or Ball now, hello Ball, welcome to the suck).
Before 1970 any fool could buy a Swiss ébauche, a case, a dial and hardware, and call themselves a watchmaker. Sounds familiar doesn’t it? Any fool now can get someone in a factory to assemble them a milsub-type watch and claim to be a microbrand. The microbrand is not new, or cool, its market normalisation to pre-quartz ideals. What’s there to rank? Unless you have 1 of 1, all watches are volume pieces regardless of price point of entry, and your mileage goes as far as you are willing to drive. It’s effectively another prelude to the next horological catastrophe: apathy.
Anyway… vintage Patek and Vacheron is still miles above the rest of the pack. Vintage Rolex will always find an audience (with deep pockets). These are all closely followed by JLC, Cartier, and then (for the masses) Omega. If you get a stiffy talking about cars or planes then maybe Heuer and Breitling. If you want to be a colossal bore, anything Genta designed - congratulations, you are effectively at source, and have traced all modern Watch ideas to their root. We haven’t even thought about getting wet - but vintage divers are about as useful as a hole in the head. I think then you should all consider ATPs, WWWs, anything 1930s-1950s specialist military, and Smiths de Luxe. The most underrated watch ever is the Lip Himalaya. I would always recommend vintage Swiss jobber (pallet lever) mechanical over anything else. The rest can get in the sea. If you are taking any of this seriously then ha ha I’ve just wasted 60 seconds of your life, and none of it is of real importance. I would recommend doing homework before investing in any vintage b*st*rd.
The answer is, as always, D) Seiko
Wholeheartedly agree with par 2. Everything else - you lost me.
It specifically says, in capital letters, "EUROPEAN, LUXURY, HIGH HOROLOGY".
When did Timex enter into that category?
Have to admit though, the criteria have a lot of exclusionary qualifications!
Exclusionary qualifications because the original post got spammed by seiko tudor and timex spam-references. I had to loch them into a linear thinking 😂
https://youtube.com/watch?v=oFQ_mbrBKw0&si=hvslXGlPx6CNSx8P
I hope this allowed sharing a YouTube link
Thank you. To me omega is mass market and hence under my interest threshold. Which is why I probably didn't watch this video
There's an old saying in Australia;
"If you want to go into the outback take a Range Rover. If you want to come back take a Land Cruiser."
Range Rover is the Panerai of cars. Toyota is the Seiko of cars.
It's an old saying because LC 100 was a good off road suv. Just like it's rival and inspiration LR defender. Look at the LC 300. It's become a luxury city dweller... There's also a G wagen... So Toyota for budget, RR and MB for people with panach
Wholeheartedly agree with par 2. Everything else - you lost me.
If you have questions, please ask 👍
That’s true enough. I haven’t seen any nonsense really since I joined. Everyone, including yourself, have been enjoyable to interact with. Oh well, on to the next post😂
"Oh well, on to the next post 😂"
Yep, that!
Thank you. To me omega is mass market and hence under my interest threshold. Which is why I probably didn't watch this video
Totally understand omega is huge
Omega > everyone else 😁👍🏻
I laugh at the cheekiness of the reply. Kudos!
It comes and goes. There is no watch forum utopia, not with the crooked timber of humanity...
Preach ain't that the truth we're all made of the same timber but we don't slot together like lament flooring 🤣more like crazy paving done badly that makes you trip slip an dislocate your hip
All those European 19th century "heritage" watch brands were crushed and left in the dust by Waltham, Elgin and Hamilton pocket watches. Their finishing, accuracy and value were second to none. They outcompeted all the "haute horlogerie" Swiss brands and forced the Swiss to adopt the American system of manufacturing which was precise enough to enable interchangeable parts for the first time. The Swiss brands mostly survived because of artifical tarif barriers limiting American exports, not because they were anything special.
So those American brands deserve the title of most historic brand because of the impact they had on the whole watch industry up to the present day - other than improved materials, increased computer control and automation, mechanical movement manufacturing processes have barely changed. Even the coaxial escapement would be easily understandable to a 19th century watchmaker.
The Swiss companies really stole a march on the American watch brands in the 40s. All production of consumer watches was stopped in the US. While Hamilton et al were manufacturing naval deck chronometers, aviation navigation pocket watches, stop watches for artillery officers, bomb timers and the like, the Swiss were happily selling military watches to all comers including the Nazis and Italian fascists, while continuing to sell and develop watches for the consumer market. This meant that the American companies struggled to catch up on the five years they lost supporting the arsenal of democracy in defeating fascism. No such problems for the Swiss watch industry.
Hamilton's still around, incidentally, albeit in Swiss ownership.
It heartens me that Watchcrunchers have responded marvelously to the original premise of this thread. 😁
I hate the word luxury,
But in terms of high horology I would put the following brands in tier 2 - GP, JLC, piaget
Tier 3 - zenith, blancpain, UN
Tier 4 - omega, breitling, iwc, panerai, GO, Cartier
Jacquet droz is hard to put into a group as they are more of a fashion statement in my opinion
You take back the comment on Jacquet Droz!
Jk 😜
Kidding aside, I love (vitreous) enameling, and Jacquet Droz produces some of the most beautiful dials I have ever seen. They display more art and sciences on their dials than 90% of watch brands on entire watches. It's very hard (seriously) to enamel perfectly like that. What Patek/VC/JLC are to watch movements, Jacquet Droz is for enamel.
Also, i find their watches more interesting than Van Cleef & Abel.
As you’ve all noted, everything is based on personal opinion. So here’s my take on the tier 2 group you listed. I’m only rating brands I own or have handled a lot and considered:
Omega > JLC > Longines > IWC > GP > Zenith > Panerai > Breitling
Hard to rank, like you said, but I based my choices a what I’ve actually aquired and would buy again.
Don’t know the rest well enough to opine.
As you’ve all noted, everything is based on personal opinion. So here’s my take on the tier 2 group you listed. I’m only rating brands I own or have handled a lot and considered:
Omega > JLC > Longines > IWC > GP > Zenith > Panerai > Breitling
Hard to rank, like you said, but I based my choices a what I’ve actually aquired and would buy again.
Don’t know the rest well enough to opine.
Thank you
Thank you
👍