In Praise of Generic Swiss
Part of the fun of vintage collecting is having a rare or unusual watch that you can represent to watch lovers and non-watch types alike. Rare does not mean valuable. It just means that in your circle only you have one (you are already the "watch guy" or "watch girl").
An inexpensive way to dip you toe into the vintage pool is with what is pejoratively called "Generic Swiss." Swiss watches were so ubiquitous that very few buyers knew more than a couple of brands. Some brands, like Atlantic, were only marketed away from Western Europe and the U.S. At one point there were over fifteen hundred watch manufacturers of some sort in Switzerland making movements, cases, and fully assembled watches. They were classified in tiers by law. They would often register in New York to evade United States tariffs on fully assembled watches by importing partially completed movements and finishing them in the States.
Over 1000 of these Swiss watch companies disappeared in the 1970's and 1980's: big names like Zodiac and Zenith, little names like Altair.
Altair was registered as a trademark by J. Boillat Fils in Les Breuleux in 1949. (Bookmark this for future reference: https://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=280 ) They used A. Schild movements. These were entry level watches. Their main competition in the United States were brands like Timex and jewelry store brands. I am not certain that quartz killed this brand. Timex is an underrated factor in the death of many entry level brands.
Vintage collecting is a gamble. You will win and you will lose. I would hate to lose on a $1,000 Tudor. I will roll the dice with a $10.00 Altair. The usual caveats apply: avoid Frankenwatches, no pin pallets, and jewel count matters (if you see "One Jewel" run away quickly). Ranftt is a useful tool to track down movements.
This little thing is going to need some work. Eventually, my second string watchmaker will take a look at it and help me do more than Polywatch the crystal. It is not worth a $200 service but I can usually get it put right for much, much less.
Get yourself a conversation piece. Go vintage. Go generic Swiss.
Restitutor Orbis. Aristocrat of beauty. Autocrat of time. (Trying to perfect trolling over at theescapementroom.com)
I love the wear on the crown.
A sure sign of a life lived well.
If the watch has a solid stainless steel case and a decent movement (15-17 jewels for a manual wind with a lever escapement) it will probably be a great watch!
Collectors forget that very few companies made their own movements prior to the last 20-25 years. Many good brands used generic time only or time and date movements from A. Schild, ETA, Peseux, Felsa, Unitas, Fleurier etc. These movements are generally relatively easy and inexpensive to have serviced and in many cases there are still stocks of spare parts available for them.
If the watch has a solid stainless steel case and a decent movement (15-17 jewels for a manual wind with a lever escapement) it will probably be a great watch!
Collectors forget that very few companies made their own movements prior to the last 20-25 years. Many good brands used generic time only or time and date movements from A. Schild, ETA, Peseux, Felsa, Unitas, Fleurier etc. These movements are generally relatively easy and inexpensive to have serviced and in many cases there are still stocks of spare parts available for them.
The thing is, they are all good movements. I have many AS, ETA and FHF movements banging away and there is little to stop them. For peanuts you can get a beautifully worn watch which could last you for a long time, and that is where the fun begins
I have had 2 arrive today, and no, I will reveal them in due course.
I will double and triple down on Jewel count and pin-pallets. Anything less than 15J, walk. Always pop the back, or check photos of the movements where possible.
At the risk of pushing people further into this rabbit hole, there are excellent brands worth checking if you want to spend a little more and keeping things pre-1970s:
when gunning for things like Omega, GP, JLC, etc… you really need to do your homework. Start out small, and work to these if you must, or just go via trusted dealers. I would avoid things like Enicar, Rado, etc… too many franken watches, so either go with trusted sellers or find some other muse.
The thing is, they are all good movements. I have many AS, ETA and FHF movements banging away and there is little to stop them. For peanuts you can get a beautifully worn watch which could last you for a long time, and that is where the fun begins
I have had 2 arrive today, and no, I will reveal them in due course.
I will double and triple down on Jewel count and pin-pallets. Anything less than 15J, walk. Always pop the back, or check photos of the movements where possible.
At the risk of pushing people further into this rabbit hole, there are excellent brands worth checking if you want to spend a little more and keeping things pre-1970s:
when gunning for things like Omega, GP, JLC, etc… you really need to do your homework. Start out small, and work to these if you must, or just go via trusted dealers. I would avoid things like Enicar, Rado, etc… too many franken watches, so either go with trusted sellers or find some other muse.
Excellent brand recommendations! If I could add a few more: vintage Certina, Nivada Grenchen (and the US branded Crotons), Mido, pre-1970s Movado, Enicar, Wittnauer, LeJour, "better" Elgins (the DeLuxe and Lord Elgin lines), Zenith (but as Zenith is a higher end vintage brand, homework is definitely key). Vintage Longines have been my bread and butter since I started collecting and represent some of the best value in vintage watches today.
Excellent brand recommendations! If I could add a few more: vintage Certina, Nivada Grenchen (and the US branded Crotons), Mido, pre-1970s Movado, Enicar, Wittnauer, LeJour, "better" Elgins (the DeLuxe and Lord Elgin lines), Zenith (but as Zenith is a higher end vintage brand, homework is definitely key). Vintage Longines have been my bread and butter since I started collecting and represent some of the best value in vintage watches today.
It was by no means exhaustive, but I think if I broke it down into tiers, or bands (in no real order I may hasten to add), people might get an idea as to areas to consider if they wish to go further into vintage. I genuinely believe in movement over brand anyway.
The thing is, I only really have one Smiths left, and it is difficult to get decent vintage ones without a decent chunk of investment, even at the lower rungs. They are still better than most.
I like seeing what I can get for £10. Its self-imposed challenges that keep this interesting for me.
I have been burnt by Enicar many times - I do not recommend going for Enicar early doors. Saying that, I have just bought one again after many years of swearing off them:
Then again, don’t plan, just let it wash over you - works for me.
Generic Swiss pieces are an excellent way to get into collecting vintage pieces. Some pieces, such as your Altair, have great character. I don't just mean the wear and patina you find on these old pieces, but they had great designs, be it the case or the dial. Your Altair's dial is very cool and definitely a conversation piece. Thanks for treating us with another beautiful vintage example!
It was by no means exhaustive, but I think if I broke it down into tiers, or bands (in no real order I may hasten to add), people might get an idea as to areas to consider if they wish to go further into vintage. I genuinely believe in movement over brand anyway.
The thing is, I only really have one Smiths left, and it is difficult to get decent vintage ones without a decent chunk of investment, even at the lower rungs. They are still better than most.
I like seeing what I can get for £10. Its self-imposed challenges that keep this interesting for me.
I have been burnt by Enicar many times - I do not recommend going for Enicar early doors. Saying that, I have just bought one again after many years of swearing off them:
Then again, don’t plan, just let it wash over you - works for me.
No worries! I just figured I would add a few more brands that I've encountered that others might look into as well. That Enicar has an absolutely stunning and unusual dial!
The thing is, they are all good movements. I have many AS, ETA and FHF movements banging away and there is little to stop them. For peanuts you can get a beautifully worn watch which could last you for a long time, and that is where the fun begins
I have had 2 arrive today, and no, I will reveal them in due course.
I will double and triple down on Jewel count and pin-pallets. Anything less than 15J, walk. Always pop the back, or check photos of the movements where possible.
At the risk of pushing people further into this rabbit hole, there are excellent brands worth checking if you want to spend a little more and keeping things pre-1970s:
when gunning for things like Omega, GP, JLC, etc… you really need to do your homework. Start out small, and work to these if you must, or just go via trusted dealers. I would avoid things like Enicar, Rado, etc… too many franken watches, so either go with trusted sellers or find some other muse.
A couple of further points (and perhaps quibbles):
Thank you for sharing! Great looking watch you found. I really like the squared pattern on the dial. Applied indicis a the red seconds hand is the icing on the cake👍
Vintage Oris is also out - just avoid any heartache down the line and leave them alone as spares are getting harder to find and donors are just becoming ridiculously expensive.
You can be lucky with Bucherer. Similarly, look at J W Benson if you are feeling a little more British and flush with cash.
With regards to jewels, whilst I agree that some 7Js are nice, many watch makers just avoid them as they wear quicker than those movements with higher jewels. Lower jewel counts does not always equal pin-pallet, but if you avoid Oris and EB movements, it’s a start. I too have a Helbros Invincible that was relegated to the drawer, but I’ve just managed to get it working again, it needed a hell of a lot of coaxing but it runs for now. I’m quite surprised with myself, I’m not a repairer but I’m damned if I’m not stubborn.
Avoid complicated movements and rarities as well - probably not a popular piece of advice, but one you should heed. Anything old and complicated will need more tlc, and if parts are harder to source it will get more expensive.
The best piece of advice, and one of the most counterintuitive, is be prepared to walk away from a watch you fall in love with. Head vs heart is always a tough battle, but if it’s going to be a dud in 5 years, and you’ve sunk lots of £££ into it, it’s going to ruin this for you. Trust me.
OK guys - you've just made this too tempting for me not to share some beauties from the bottom - all are working perfectly (regardless of number of jewels or type of movement).
My only condition for inclusion was they had to be pre-1980s and they had to cost me less than $250 (most on this list cost less than $150) - these are just some from the ABCs - let me know if you want me to show more:
OK guys - you've just made this too tempting for me not to share some beauties from the bottom - all are working perfectly (regardless of number of jewels or type of movement).
My only condition for inclusion was they had to be pre-1980s and they had to cost me less than $250 (most on this list cost less than $150) - these are just some from the ABCs - let me know if you want me to show more:
You have about TWELVE THOUSAND WATCHES, so bring it on, SHOW US.
Your pictures are the closest that some of us will ever get to these.
You have about TWELVE THOUSAND WATCHES, so bring it on, SHOW US.
Your pictures are the closest that some of us will ever get to these.
Glad you like them - yes compelled to share these misfits with those who will appreciate them.
You, my friend, are an enabler (definition number 1) - ha ha.
OK - here are eight more:
Glad you like them - yes compelled to share these misfits with those who will appreciate them.
You, my friend, are an enabler (definition number 1) - ha ha.
OK - here are eight more:
My favorites in that batch are the Festina Caribbean 100 and the Lanco. We didn't even mention those brands but they are very desirable.
My favorites in that batch are the Festina Caribbean 100 and the Lanco. We didn't even mention those brands but they are very desirable.
Yes - I need to do some work on a write-up for Lanco.
I already posted one for Festina - in case someone missed it...
https://www.watchcrunch.com/ChronoGuy/posts/let-s-talk-about-festina-4370
OK guys - you've just made this too tempting for me not to share some beauties from the bottom - all are working perfectly (regardless of number of jewels or type of movement).
My only condition for inclusion was they had to be pre-1980s and they had to cost me less than $250 (most on this list cost less than $150) - these are just some from the ABCs - let me know if you want me to show more:
That Certina looks fantastic😍
That Certina looks fantastic😍
Thanks - I believe it is a 1950s Swiss military watch. It is on its original military issued bund strap.
It's only 33mm, but wears larger because of the bund strap.
That has been my go to for smaller diameter military watches - get them on the right bund strap and they look fantastic on the wrist.
Do folks have strong opinions about Elgin? I see the lord Elgin line mentioned in this thread, but not Elgin. I have an Elgin Shockmaster from the mid 50s and I’m on the fence whether I should get it serviced or not. At 31mm, not sure how often I would wear it.
Do folks have strong opinions about Elgin? I see the lord Elgin line mentioned in this thread, but not Elgin. I have an Elgin Shockmaster from the mid 50s and I’m on the fence whether I should get it serviced or not. At 31mm, not sure how often I would wear it.
I am strongly pro-Elgin. Lord Elgin and Elgin Deluxe were better quality watches in the same way that Buick was better than Chevrolet back in the day. They really were about the same. The wheels started to come off in the late 1960's and every thing made after 1968 is really just the Elgin name.
I think that you own a very pretty watch which can occupy a space between informal and formal with ease. No tool watch can do that. As someone with a Perfectly Sized Wrist (tm) I regularly wear round watches from 29mm to 41mm and they all look great. Compare it to some modern watches. The readable dial space will be similar. The modern watch will fill space with the bezel and case. There is no wasted space in a well designed vintage piece like yours.
You have to make the financial decision yourself. Most grey haired watchmakers learned their trade on Elgin and Bulova movements in the US. Parts are readily available if there is a major problem. (Seriously, look at that dial, you would move on from that?)
Do folks have strong opinions about Elgin? I see the lord Elgin line mentioned in this thread, but not Elgin. I have an Elgin Shockmaster from the mid 50s and I’m on the fence whether I should get it serviced or not. At 31mm, not sure how often I would wear it.
The major differences between the standard Elgin, DeLuxe and Lord Elgin were the quality of the movements and the cases. From about the 1930s through the 1950s:
That is more of a summary, and there were exceptions, but that was general Elgin hierarchy at that point in time.
The major differences between the standard Elgin, DeLuxe and Lord Elgin were the quality of the movements and the cases. From about the 1930s through the 1950s:
That is more of a summary, and there were exceptions, but that was general Elgin hierarchy at that point in time.
Interesting - thank you and @Aurelian for this background! I'll have to find a way to open up the back of the Elgin I have. It appears to have a screwdown caseback, which I don't have the tools to open. I'm curious what kind of movement it has. It has a 10K gold filled stamp between the lugs with a steel caseback. I'm starting to see the appeal of vintage watches - finding out about the history of the watch is like a little puzzle/mystery to solve!
Interesting - thank you and @Aurelian for this background! I'll have to find a way to open up the back of the Elgin I have. It appears to have a screwdown caseback, which I don't have the tools to open. I'm curious what kind of movement it has. It has a 10K gold filled stamp between the lugs with a steel caseback. I'm starting to see the appeal of vintage watches - finding out about the history of the watch is like a little puzzle/mystery to solve!
You're welcome! Buy one of those sticky rubber watch case opening balls.
OK guys - you've just made this too tempting for me not to share some beauties from the bottom - all are working perfectly (regardless of number of jewels or type of movement).
My only condition for inclusion was they had to be pre-1980s and they had to cost me less than $250 (most on this list cost less than $150) - these are just some from the ABCs - let me know if you want me to show more:
The Butex(??) and Certina rule. Thanks for showing them. The rest aren't too shabby either.
The Butex(??) and Certina rule. Thanks for showing them. The rest aren't too shabby either.
Thanks - The Certina was a lucky find on Watches83. Watches83.com is a great source for vintage watches. Sigfrid and Silvia are great.
The Butex was a find on Catawiki. Great source for European dealers, just be careful buying from dealers in Turkey - lots of dodgy Frankenwatches and "NOS" where dials have been refinished.
There are some really good dealers in Portugal, Spain and Poland who note they have professionally refinished the dials. The danger is when someone purchases the watch from them and then sells it on without sharing that the dial was refinished. You often find the redials on classic 1950s/1960s Suisse Chronographe "tourist" watches. Some look truly amazing and are fun to own as long as you don't mind a refinished dial.
Here is an example of a beautiful refinished Chronographe Suisse...
Thank you so much for the information. I don't have any vintage watches yet but think a lot of the obscure brands are just as interesting (more?) as the big hitters. I absolutely would consider a refinished dial if it was stated up front and not being passed off as NOS. To me, "patina" is a euphemism for decay.
They did a beautiful job on the Chrono in your photo. Who wouldn't want that? Again, thanks.