Who Made Who, Exactly?
If you think that the Daytona is cool That's because Zenith held the key For without its El Primero The Daytona would not come to be
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Andromeda
Just an amateur watch nerd who never believes that good watches had to be expensive... Just like good tasting food... 😁
Singapore
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Rolex released the first Daytona in 1963. It wasn't until 1969 that zenith released the first El Primero.
Rolex released the first Daytona in 1963. It wasn't until 1969 that zenith released the first El Primero.
Yes but that didn't sell. After Rolex used the El Primero movements the sales skyrocketed n that placed Rolex on the map to 'luxury'...
Yes but that didn't sell. After Rolex used the El Primero movements the sales skyrocketed n that placed Rolex on the map to 'luxury'...
Wow, OK. Isn't it crazy that the most sought after Daytona is the "Paul Newman", Which was in production between 1963-1969!
Ikr mate 😁. Think it's the 'original collectors' mindset... Where the original is the best even though some of them could be flawed...
Heard of the Orient Mako 40 'debacle'? The original had a major flaw where some minute markers had really wide spacings n it was found on the actual sales units... 😁 So, naturally, reviewers n buyers who didn't notice that before made a lotta noise...
Then after Orient re-released the corrected version the 'flawed' original became a collector's item... 😁
Ikr mate 😁. Think it's the 'original collectors' mindset... Where the original is the best even though some of them could be flawed...
Heard of the Orient Mako 40 'debacle'? The original had a major flaw where some minute markers had really wide spacings n it was found on the actual sales units... 😁 So, naturally, reviewers n buyers who didn't notice that before made a lotta noise...
Then after Orient re-released the corrected version the 'flawed' original became a collector's item... 😁
The Orient thing is wild to me. One, because it had to get approved my multiple people/teams and nobody caught it. Two, because it's an Orient. While very cool watches, it's never going to worth anything of real significance because it was a cheap watch to start with.
Polaroid was first but Kodak made those insta photos a commercial success... Newman Daytona may have been first but what good does it do if your product doesnt sell. Today, people will gladly pay $$$ for the first picasso even though it's Ghernica that is his masterpiece, etc.
True but the chronograph movement was first invented by Longines I believe. Fact check me..
Perhaps it was, but Orient has always been the new Seiko, doing everything right n giving great value for the money...
This was perhaps one of the few, if ever times, they produced a misprinted dial.
I've friends who had to send their Rolexes back to be fixed... That's even wilder... 😁
True but the chronograph movement was first invented by Longines I believe. Fact check me..
Indeed. I do recall seeing that article somewhere...
Indeed. I do recall seeing that article somewhere...
Was it a Teddy Baldizare episode? I think it may have been..
Was it a Teddy Baldizare episode? I think it may have been..
I'm looking out for that or any other videos or articles on that subject... If you find anything, please post the link here mate. Thanks. 😊
That’s a very superficial way of looking at it: people act like Rolex just dropped in a stock El Primero 400 movement, where in fact Rolex took the El Primero base and made more than 200 patented changes/improvements to the El Primero, including completely chucking and replacing more than 50% of the parts to the point it was pretty much a different movement in comparison by the time they were done with it, and called it the 4030, a significantly better movement than the El Primero 400 it was based on. Rolex used it as a base (as was common at the time) and improved on it so much so it had little to do with the original El Primero that was used as a base, before deeming it sufficient to be used in their already existing Daytona.
The Daytona was first. The ‘El Primero’ Daytona movement was not a stock El Primero movement — it was an improved Rolex movement built on an El Primero base. Big difference.
Yes but that didn't sell. After Rolex used the El Primero movements the sales skyrocketed n that placed Rolex on the map to 'luxury'...
Wrong, it was primarily the harmonizing of the design language to bring it in line with the already very popular Submariners and GMT Masters, new case design, and increase in case size to 40mm that boosted sales, *in addition to* the switch from manual wind to automatic that did it. It was a complete branding refresh.
That’s a very superficial way of looking at it: people act like Rolex just dropped in a stock El Primero 400 movement, where in fact Rolex took the El Primero base and made more than 200 patented changes/improvements to the El Primero, including completely chucking and replacing more than 50% of the parts to the point it was pretty much a different movement in comparison by the time they were done with it, and called it the 4030, a significantly better movement than the El Primero 400 it was based on. Rolex used it as a base (as was common at the time) and improved on it so much so it had little to do with the original El Primero that was used as a base, before deeming it sufficient to be used in their already existing Daytona.
The Daytona was first. The ‘El Primero’ Daytona movement was not a stock El Primero movement — it was an improved Rolex movement built on an El Primero base. Big difference.
You pretty much covered what I was going to say.
True but the chronograph movement was first invented by Longines I believe. Fact check me..
Breitling built the first chronograph wrist watch in 1915 I think, but the first chronograph was built long before that, a whole century prior — I forget by whom, but it wasn’t one of the big brands we know today. Longines built the first dual time watch (the Zulu time).
Rolex released the first Daytona in 1963. It wasn't until 1969 that zenith released the first El Primero.
You might be comparing apple to oranges. The 60’s era first gen Daytona had a Valjoux wind up movement (not automatic). Rolex was behind the game on *automatic* chronographs when the market dictated they needed one and so adopted Zenith’s El Primero in Rolex’s second generation of Daytona. However they did several modifications to it, such as removing date, slowing beat frequency from 5 to 4, changing spring material, etc.
Based
You might be comparing apple to oranges. The 60’s era first gen Daytona had a Valjoux wind up movement (not automatic). Rolex was behind the game on *automatic* chronographs when the market dictated they needed one and so adopted Zenith’s El Primero in Rolex’s second generation of Daytona. However they did several modifications to it, such as removing date, slowing beat frequency from 5 to 4, changing spring material, etc.
I think he was simply responding to the OP’s premise (poem and header) which imply that the Daytona (and its success) exists only because of the Zenith — which is factually wrong no matter which way you slice it. This is before we get to the upgrades made to the El Primero movement / the switch to autos 🍻
Lol. Factually incorrect.
[EDIT]: Hilarious edit 😂😂😂
1988 Zenith DeLuca
1988 Rolex Daytona
Who copied whom, indeed.
Zenith succeded because of Rolex, not the other way around.
They were lucky to have Vermot.
As stated in another long but factual post, Rolex essentially changed the bits inside the ElPrimero to suit its higher levels required. Not stock zenith movt and in the case design, the original zenith a386 chronomaster from the 1960s did not have that rolex oyster style cues used in all sports rolexes. The new chronomaster sport however feels like the people at zenith are trying to do a daytona. Which is why if i wanted a zenith, it isn't a chronomaster sport but a chronomaster original. So Rolex daytona in that style first, then came zenith. And Rolex even upped the ElPrimero to their own superlative standards.
Right. I bought a Zenith because I like the story of the EP, not because think it somehow supercedes Rolex.
Zenith has a history of technical achievement but poor long term vision. Charming in its own way
Yes but that didn't sell. After Rolex used the El Primero movements the sales skyrocketed n that placed Rolex on the map to 'luxury'...
No. The ceramic bezel, Paul Newman, and savvy marketing made Rolex skyrocket.
Zenith didnt get popular until they copied the Rolex design. Again.
I dont believe the DeRosa was super popular
Breitling built the first chronograph wrist watch in 1915 I think, but the first chronograph was built long before that, a whole century prior — I forget by whom, but it wasn’t one of the big brands we know today. Longines built the first dual time watch (the Zulu time).
Longines did make the first chronograph wristwatch in 1913 powered by the 13.33Z. The Longines used a single crown for all functions of the watch. Breitling released the first wristwatch with a separate pusher for the chrono function in 1915.
Louis Moinet invented the chronograph itself in 1815 although the first patent was filed by Nicolas Mathieu Rieussec in 1822.
Lol. Factually incorrect.
[EDIT]: Hilarious edit 😂😂😂
Where is @ChronoGuy on this matter?
Thanks Justin for calling this to my attention.
I agree 100% with Andromeda.
Until Rolex placed the El Primero movement in the Daytona it was a complete dog and one of the worst selling watches in its collection. That is the reason why so many of the manual vintage Daytonas go for such high prices because relatively few were sold when it was a manual movement. So that combined with the Paul Newman association brings the high prices.
My comparison of the modern day Daytona and the El Primero falls like this...
Movement - the win for Zenith
Bracelet - the win for Rolex
Design - they both win since the original design was Zenith's and Rolex enhanced Zenith's original design (remember the dial design was based on the El Primero movement so Zenith had it first)
Branding - Rolex for the win - no one spends more money promoting their brand than Rolex. I'm not sure there is another company on the planet that spends as much in advertising and branding as Rolex does.
Honesty - Zenith for the win. Rolex continually lies and inflates its role in watchmaking history so I have no respect for them because of the deceptive nature of their story and how they take improper credit for others' achievements. I just can't respect that.
Here is the final proof...in the collection...
Rolex = 0
Zenith = 11 (9 El Primeros)
...and if we add the Movado/Zenith El Primeros there are even more...
Thanks Justin for calling this to my attention.
I agree 100% with Andromeda.
Until Rolex placed the El Primero movement in the Daytona it was a complete dog and one of the worst selling watches in its collection. That is the reason why so many of the manual vintage Daytonas go for such high prices because relatively few were sold when it was a manual movement. So that combined with the Paul Newman association brings the high prices.
My comparison of the modern day Daytona and the El Primero falls like this...
Movement - the win for Zenith
Bracelet - the win for Rolex
Design - they both win since the original design was Zenith's and Rolex enhanced Zenith's original design (remember the dial design was based on the El Primero movement so Zenith had it first)
Branding - Rolex for the win - no one spends more money promoting their brand than Rolex. I'm not sure there is another company on the planet that spends as much in advertising and branding as Rolex does.
Honesty - Zenith for the win. Rolex continually lies and inflates its role in watchmaking history so I have no respect for them because of the deceptive nature of their story and how they take improper credit for others' achievements. I just can't respect that.
Here is the final proof...in the collection...
Rolex = 0
Zenith = 11 (9 El Primeros)
...and if we add the Movado/Zenith El Primeros there are even more...
Amazing collection there, and insightful comment. I like both brands and watches and just hear to learn the history. 🍻
Zenith succeded because of Rolex, not the other way around.
They were lucky to have Vermot.
Not entirely true, ebel already used el primero movements since 1982 which brought Zenith back. Rolex started buying El primero movements since 1988😉
Not entirely true, ebel already used el primero movements since 1982 which brought Zenith back. Rolex started buying El primero movements since 1988😉
You are right. Ebel already had it. The Daytona did not explode in popularity until well after the Zenith movement. Note Zenith itself does not emphasize Ebel.
But what this means to me is that the EP is not the key to market success. The case, bezel design, marketing are the key.
This is what Rolex brought to the table.