Man vs Machine
I imagine I started down the road of watch obsession for the same reason as many people.
For me watches have a loose affiliation with my late father.
I was attracted to the allure of a romanticized past. The time before everything was automated. What I would like to think was a simpler time.
Plus I never stop being amazed at the engineering we as humans created. All those tiny springs and gears and cogs the make up this tiny machine on my wrist that can keep time to within seconds.
In my imagination my watch was something out Rockwell painting. Created by a kindly old man that looks like Geppetto hunched over a workbench. Like this
In reality it's birth likely looked a lot more like this.
Recently I heard someone speculate that AI and robots will be designing and manufacturing watches within the decade. Ugh... depressing.
It was disturbing to think of at first. If I wanted a robot watch I would just read the time off my phone. But after some thought, I began to wonder if it's truly a bad thing?
The unfortunate truth, is that a robot, a machine, has a much steadier hand than the most skilled watchmaker. It can be programmed to be many times as precise as compared to the human hand. They can brush or polish in ridiculous time. Assemble and lubricate the tiniest of parts with unparalleled accuracy. It also helps keep costs in line. That's a benefit for the watch companies but it also gets passed on to us as the consumer in lower retail prices. All of that is good right?
Okay, is it me? Or does it feel a little like watch created by a robot doesn't have much of a soul? Somehow I as an enthusiast, equate the personality of a watch to a human creator. As if the person who assembled this magnificent little machine on my wrist left a little piece of himself in each creation. Somehow the more hours a watchmaker spends with my watch, the more special it is. I know it's ridiculous but I can be the only person who has felt this way. Right?
Besides watches, I have an interest in firearms. I have friends who own flintlocks. They're super fun, It's easy to romanticize that long ago time when men were men and lived off the land. They use that flintlock to hunt for their food or defend their family. I marvel at the engineering that we as humans used to create it. But given the choice, I'll buy my meat at Safeway, and if things got sideways I'd way prefer a Glock 43 or any AR created in a factory by a machine over that old flintlock.
I also like motorcycles. I've been to a few motorcycle museums and stared in awe at some of those early bikes created in the beginning of the 1900s. I'd love to own one. I don't really even need to own it, I just want to ride it around the block. I want to see how it feels. How does it handle? What's the acceleration like? It would be fun. The same as those old watches, I like the romanticize the idea of the era of that bike. I marvel at the engineering that a human created this machine. But if I need a daily driver, something reliable, I' m going to go with a Ducati or a Harley, that was built in a factory by a machine. It'll earn its soul, on the trips we take, on the time I spend with it, how I choose to customize it or work on it.
I think I'm just going to have to come to terms with living in and enjoying both watch worlds. Appreciating the past creations and innovations while enjoying the benefits of modern advancements and industrialization. My watches will have to earn their souls and character with it adventures and time spent together.
Just keep this guy away from my watches
Credit where it's due this post by @TheHoroSexual and a comment in that post by @Fieldwalker started me thinking about this post.
And as always, I could be wrong, I'm wrong a lot, after all I am just a dumihed.
How do you feel? Man? Or Machine? Does it matter? Do your watches have a soul?
Just a watch dumi hoping to learn stuff
The longer we can push back the impending AI takeover the better…
"There's no fate but what we make for ourselves"😂
I watched a video on YT about the Tudor manufacturing process and was alarmed that it was very much automated and not the hand created fantasy I had in my head. Sad, and I feel like we're losing an art, but that's modern manufacturing.
I watched a video on YT about the Tudor manufacturing process and was alarmed that it was very much automated and not the hand created fantasy I had in my head. Sad, and I feel like we're losing an art, but that's modern manufacturing.
I'm with you. But I'm pretty sure all but a few of the brands in the "Ultra Luxury" category are using mostly automated machine manufacturing.
I'm going to tell myself that a man made the machine that made the machine so it's still okay 😂
The longer we can push back the impending AI takeover the better…
According to Google Sarah Connor wears a NIXON Regulus A1180-100m. I don't really like digital watches but maybe I should buy one in preparation.
I'm with you. But I'm pretty sure all but a few of the brands in the "Ultra Luxury" category are using mostly automated machine manufacturing.
I'm going to tell myself that a man made the machine that made the machine so it's still okay 😂
You're probably correct, but where's the art? We're such nostalgics😂
According to Google Sarah Connor wears a NIXON Regulus A1180-100m. I don't really like digital watches but maybe I should buy one in preparation.
If the machines rise, I'm gonna stick with my Duro 😂
According to Google Sarah Connor wears a NIXON Regulus A1180-100m. I don't really like digital watches but maybe I should buy one in preparation.
If the machines rise, I'm gonna stick with my Duro 😂
I always say please and thank you to all the AI in my life. Just in case they rise up. Maybe they'll recognize me as a nice guy.
And field watches aren't really my thing, but I feel like a Hamilton Khaki might be a better choice than that Nixxon. Is automatic. So I won't need to worry about a battery. And it'll take the abuse it'll need during the machine rebellion.
I always say please and thank you to all the AI in my life. Just in case they rise up. Maybe they'll recognize me as a nice guy.
And field watches aren't really my thing, but I feel like a Hamilton Khaki might be a better choice than that Nixxon. Is automatic. So I won't need to worry about a battery. And it'll take the abuse it'll need during the machine rebellion.
Field watches weren't mine either until recently when I bought my KF mechanical, and I love it. So simple, reducing a watch to its absolute basics.
I think there is a definite correlation between watch enthusiasts and people who like to tinker, no matter what that tinkering entails. It's obvious that people on this forum are into cars quite a bit. I notice lot of people who build all kinds of things, from woodworking to machining. I'm sure we have a decent amount of coders here, too.
As a high school student I had a three-week internship at a facility where Siemens trained their apprentices. ("You can have a saw when I'm certain you can file accurately enough.") So yes, in every mechanical device there is a lot of human thought that has taken shape. I'm also living in a town with a lot of automotive engineers. They are very enthusiastic about what they do, and you can clearly see the influence of these people in the final product.
I think there is a definite correlation between watch enthusiasts and people who like to tinker, no matter what that tinkering entails. It's obvious that people on this forum are into cars quite a bit. I notice lot of people who build all kinds of things, from woodworking to machining. I'm sure we have a decent amount of coders here, too.
As a high school student I had a three-week internship at a facility where Siemens trained their apprentices. ("You can have a saw when I'm certain you can file accurately enough.") So yes, in every mechanical device there is a lot of human thought that has taken shape. I'm also living in a town with a lot of automotive engineers. They are very enthusiastic about what they do, and you can clearly see the influence of these people in the final product.
I left it out of the post, but I did think about including how even if the machines manufacturer the watches. It still men who design them. It's the design element that mostly gives a watch it's personality. The human thought that you're talking about
I left it out of the post, but I did think about including how even if the machines manufacturer the watches. It still men who design them. It's the design element that mostly gives a watch it's personality. The human thought that you're talking about
Right, somebody really thought about it long and hard, performed a lot of research, finally got it right after a lot of trial and error. Just because something was ultimately produced by a machine, doesn't mean that it wasn't done right.
Take a watch case for example, or something as trivial as a strap's buckle. You can tell if somebody put some thought into it. You can really tell in small design details.
Cheers for the shoutout!
Your post is one like I'd write - long thoughtful about a different sort of subject.
I take solace that we can still, to some extent choose if we'd like robot build or not.
Yup - at the cheapest prices I'm sure it's a combo of labour (slave) and machines making watches.
...But at prices similar to (or even less) than a robot made Tudor, you can own watches that are assembled by a watchmaker. And if you expand into vintage watches you need not go back very far in time to have a fully hand made and reliable watch that's very inexpensive.
I've seen the watchmaking studios at Grand Seiko Shizukuishi and at Horage in Bein Beil, and at those places skilled highly skilled men and women were doing the watchmaking.
Seiko/Grand Seiko (the brand I'm most familiar with) - gives that expert hand made construction down to the 8L movement level, which you can find in new watches cheap as ~2k. I'm sure it's similar for Swiss watches.
For myself, I consider where my watches come from and how they were put together ...and attach some value to that aspect of the watch.
Love this. I actually believe in the mantra that AI / robots won’t replace people - people using AI / Robots will replace people who aren’t.
There will always be a place for fully hand made watches but I think the tools that those craftsmen use - in the design and build phases - will make them better.
And there is no doubt demand for lower prices mechanisms that are manufactured on automated production lines.
Both can exist.
Automation, or at least the use of tools exists on a spectrum. The man in your Rockwell painting is using tools and parts that benefitted from more automation than Breguet would have had in the late 1700s. As with a lot of “luxury” goods it’s all about the holistic story around the product. We can see this through some of the perceptions around GS being very well designed pieces with a high degree of craftsmanship despite the post from @TheHoroSexual showing a relatively low number of watchmaker hours.
Different people value different things, a highly automated process yields much higher uniformity so you are much less likely to see the classic bezel/dial misalignment or a speck of dust under the crystal. The great thing is that there has never been a better time to be a watch enthusiast and there are options in the market for almost anything from the cutting edge of design and manufacture to pieces still being made and assembled at the bench. Great post, really got me thinking.
Automation, or at least the use of tools exists on a spectrum. The man in your Rockwell painting is using tools and parts that benefitted from more automation than Breguet would have had in the late 1700s. As with a lot of “luxury” goods it’s all about the holistic story around the product. We can see this through some of the perceptions around GS being very well designed pieces with a high degree of craftsmanship despite the post from @TheHoroSexual showing a relatively low number of watchmaker hours.
Different people value different things, a highly automated process yields much higher uniformity so you are much less likely to see the classic bezel/dial misalignment or a speck of dust under the crystal. The great thing is that there has never been a better time to be a watch enthusiast and there are options in the market for almost anything from the cutting edge of design and manufacture to pieces still being made and assembled at the bench. Great post, really got me thinking.
Just goes to show what perspective will do. I hadn't given any thought about how the the old man in the Rockwell would have been considered cutting edge and industrialised in his time.
That's the best compliment! Thank you.
As I get more and more into watches, I can appreciate both sides. I absolutely love the build quality and reliability that you’re able to get when you buy an Omega, Rolex or Tudor but I also adore the smaller brands that spend many more watchmaker-hours per watch. As I’ve spoken to more and more people that own the highest end “independent “brands, they’ll quietly tell you how they’ve had to send them in for warrantied service after just a few months of ownership. And I’ve seen some horror stories about ALS QC. However, you rarely see these collectors talking about it publicly on social media because they still want that next allocation from the brand. So there are benefits and drawbacks to both approaches. I will say that I have a new appreciation for “Glashüttenomics” and will be focusing more energy on German brands like GO as they offer superb quality for the money. But I will also always love Rolex and will forever be in awe of what they’ve accomplished. I’m rambling. Night y’all.
Automation, or at least the use of tools exists on a spectrum. The man in your Rockwell painting is using tools and parts that benefitted from more automation than Breguet would have had in the late 1700s. As with a lot of “luxury” goods it’s all about the holistic story around the product. We can see this through some of the perceptions around GS being very well designed pieces with a high degree of craftsmanship despite the post from @TheHoroSexual showing a relatively low number of watchmaker hours.
Different people value different things, a highly automated process yields much higher uniformity so you are much less likely to see the classic bezel/dial misalignment or a speck of dust under the crystal. The great thing is that there has never been a better time to be a watch enthusiast and there are options in the market for almost anything from the cutting edge of design and manufacture to pieces still being made and assembled at the bench. Great post, really got me thinking.
Thanks for the shoutout. Cheers! 🍻
As I get more and more into watches, I can appreciate both sides. I absolutely love the build quality and reliability that you’re able to get when you buy an Omega, Rolex or Tudor but I also adore the smaller brands that spend many more watchmaker-hours per watch. As I’ve spoken to more and more people that own the highest end “independent “brands, they’ll quietly tell you how they’ve had to send them in for warrantied service after just a few months of ownership. And I’ve seen some horror stories about ALS QC. However, you rarely see these collectors talking about it publicly on social media because they still want that next allocation from the brand. So there are benefits and drawbacks to both approaches. I will say that I have a new appreciation for “Glashüttenomics” and will be focusing more energy on German brands like GO as they offer superb quality for the money. But I will also always love Rolex and will forever be in awe of what they’ve accomplished. I’m rambling. Night y’all.
I'll happily jump on the GO bandwagon with you. From the statistics you mentioned in your post it sounds like they've found a solid mix of Machine AND Man.
You reminded me of something: There is a famous temple in Japan that has one upside down pillar.
It’s subtle, just the pattern on it inverted from some other nearby pillars. If nobody drew your attention to it, you wouldn’t notice.
The ancient builders figured if they made the temple ‘perfect’ , it’s got nowhere to go but get worse.
Our human ‘best’ is nearly perfect and striving for better
The flaws accentuate the beauty. It's why we love Cindy Crawford with her beauty mark or Harrison Ford with the scar on his chin or Tom Cruise's off-center teeth.
And so it begins.
Totally agree, but I would like to change Ducati and Harley with Yamaha and Honda.
"But if I need a daily driver, something reliable, I' m going to go with a Ducati or a Harley,".
There's something odd about being afraid of or angry at technology that does what we want it to better than some other technology. I imagine that some people took umbrage when the verge-and-foliot escapement fitted to a weight driven mechanism displaced sundials and the water clock.
Totally agree, but I would like to change Ducati and Harley with Yamaha and Honda.
"But if I need a daily driver, something reliable, I' m going to go with a Ducati or a Harley,".
I'm fine with you twisting the throttle on whatever you like. 😁 If it's on two wheels and shiny side up then it's okay by me.
Whatever helps make my point 😂
There's something odd about being afraid of or angry at technology that does what we want it to better than some other technology. I imagine that some people took umbrage when the verge-and-foliot escapement fitted to a weight driven mechanism displaced sundials and the water clock.
Humans are a contradiction. Their ability to adapt is their biggest strength, but still they hate change.
According to Google Sarah Connor wears a NIXON Regulus A1180-100m. I don't really like digital watches but maybe I should buy one in preparation.
Sarah Conner wears a Tank or something on a bund strap with a cover in the only two Terminator films that exist in my reality.
And while I, for one, welcome our AI overlords, I think in this conflict - that starts with a nuclear strike - I'll go with a mechanical watch that is more resistant to the electro-magnetic pulse.
We humans are a funny bunch, many of us expect basically chronometer-like perfection from our $1000 watches, but balk upon realising that “these pieces were made by machines in China”. I mean, really?
I see a similar thing in the realm of guitar luthiery and manufacturing. On the one hand, guitarists revere instruments made back in the 50s, and on the other, they cry foul when a manufacturer is able to make their instruments so consistently thanks to technology and incredible QC, their instruments “appear soulless”.
What do we want? A machine that somehow makes things inconsistently such that it has the human-like characteristics like flaws?
I say if you want a modern watch to have heart, then recognise that such pieces made and assembled by hand will cost dearly, and more than most of us would be willing to put down in terms of cash.
The rest of us will wear our precision-manufactured Tudors, Seikos, Tissot etc, enjoy what modern pieces we have, and maybe indulge in vintage pieces if we want to have that “old school” vibe.
Nowadays, I'd imagine very little watch making is done by hand and if a *new* watch has anything resembling a soul, it is merely because we wish to believe it.
No, it will be as you said about the motorcycles... Our watches earn their soul by the time spent on our wrists, the years their mechanical and quartz hearts (yes even quartz) beat to the rhythm of passing time. The scuffs, the scratches, the patina, the servicing, they collect, whilst we wear and cherish and keep them running accurately. Only then, when they have become part of our lives, can they truly acquire a soul.
It doesn't matter if the watch is made by machine or man, it only a tool until we give the tool meaning.
Nowadays, I'd imagine very little watch making is done by hand and if a *new* watch has anything resembling a soul, it is merely because we wish to believe it.
No, it will be as you said about the motorcycles... Our watches earn their soul by the time spent on our wrists, the years their mechanical and quartz hearts (yes even quartz) beat to the rhythm of passing time. The scuffs, the scratches, the patina, the servicing, they collect, whilst we wear and cherish and keep them running accurately. Only then, when they have become part of our lives, can they truly acquire a soul.
It doesn't matter if the watch is made by machine or man, it only a tool until we give the tool meaning.
Great thought! I might have to write that down.