Review of an affordable flying tourbillon... the watch geek's mechanical lava lamp
Intro:
It’s been 222 years since Breguet applied for the first Tourbillon patent with the use case being to distribute the affects of single positional vector gravity on pocket watches by rotating the entire escapement balance wheel assembly. Despite arguably not adding any functional value to wrist watches since they are in continuous motion, they’re pretty cool kinetic art complications, and further are flexes for watch makers as they are non-trivial complicated additions. The word “tourbillion” is used informally to include many variants that have the same purpose, including the original Breguet tourbillion (1801), Bahne Bonniksen carrousel (1892), Alfred Helwig flying tourbillion (1922), double and triple axis tourbillions, gyrotourbillions, Koda constant force (GS), and many many more. The Sea-Gull movement which this post focuses on is an Alfred Helwig (of Glashütte) flying tourbillion with a 1 minute rotation.
Tianjin SeaGull watch group has been making tourbillons since 2005, based in TianJian China and founded in 1955. It is the world's largest manufacturer of mechanical watch movements, producing a quarter of total global production by volume. They literally have dozens of brand names. The watch in this review is marked "Sea Kors", but came in a "Sea-Kors/Sugess/Seestern" box.
Movement:
The Sea-Gull ST8007 is a 25 jewel movement that runs at 21600 bph and has a roughly 35-40 hour (unconfirmed) power reserve. The standout feature of this movement is a flying tourbillon at the 6 o'clock position. Date complicaton at 3 o'clock. Power reserve complication at 12 o'clock, and a 24-hour hand am/pm complication at 9 o'clock. One wind of the crown adds approximately one hour of power so approximately 24 winds per day to maintain power level. Hand winding has an interesting spring back feel at the end of the manual wind, which I presume is before a cog engages to stop the main spring from unwinding. The movement is non-hacking. Date is set by a setter on the edge of the case at 2 o'clock.
I'm only 5 days into my timing streak, so I think it's still too early to comment on accuracy, though I think this one may come in with a ballpark figure around +15 spd, which is fine because it's non-hacking, far from a gada watch, and one I would at best likely only wear for a few days at time.
The toubillon in this watch takes exactly 60 seconds for a complete rotation. As such, the edges of the dial around the tourbillon are grduated with second markers, such that the tourbillon becomes the second hand functionally speaking. Not quite as legible, but certainly more interesting than a traditional second hand.
Flying tourbillion is mounted differently than traditional tourbillons in that most have a support system such as a bridge or cock on both sides. Flying tourbillons is supported by only one side. This was an important realization for me. On the first day I got this, I noticed while holding the watch in direct sun light, that the escapement wheel would sparkle about every 2 seconds, which was attractively eye catching, but the engineer part of my brain said it's likely an indication the escapement is not coplanar. I've since learned this is an expected characteristic of flying tourbillons, and has no effect on functionality that I can see.
Case:
The case is a polished shiny stainless steel, with a synthetic sapphire crystal. The exhibition back is held down with 6 screws. There is a setter at 2 o'clock for adjusting the date wheel complication. The case is imprinted with a 5ATM rating and looks safe for hand washing, though I wouldn't feel comfortable swimming with it because of the crown.
The onion crown is easy to grip and is all stainless steel. Because of inconsistent AliExpress photos, I was concerned that it would arrive with a blue gem on the crown tip, which I would hate because it then would look like a Cartier homage, rather than have the self confidence to stand on its own. Fortunately, no blue gem tip.
40mm diameter, 11.5mm thickness, 21mm strap width. 48mm lug to lug.
Dial
The dial is a nice metallic pearl white with an imprinted guilloche patterning. The roman numerals hour markings have the appearance of being applied, but in reality are raised and painted metallic blue. The hands are a dark metallic blue. As the light shifts, the hour markings and hands may appear black, sometimes blue and black, sometimes the same color blue, and sometimes blue, but slightly different colors of blue. It all works. Black text is crisp and clean printed. I had some anxiety that given the price, the dial might come off as cheesy underwhelming. After seeing it first hand, I think it is well done.
The watch has zero lume....though with the prominent tourbillon, this is not meant as a Go Anywhere Do Anything watch, but rather a watch that is meant to be seen in the light.
Straps:
The watch came with blue bamboo patterned genuine leather straps. Additionally it came with a black "Genuine Alligator" leather strap with a stainless steel side push quick release clasp. I can't comment on these as I took them off immediately preferring my nato strap.
Nitpicks #1: am/pm complication
The left complication is a fancy AM/PM military time indicator. Sun comes up for AM, and stars rotate into position for night. If you can’t be bothered with adding 12 in the afternoon to get military time, it’s right there. The 24-hour complication is locked to the setting of the main hour hand. They missed an opportunity if only this complication hour hand was adjustable, as it could have been very useful as an alternate timezone…. As is, it is still quite useful if you find yourself in the wilderness above the arctic circle and lose track of AM/PM. Not great for spelunking since it has no lume. Seriously though, because it is a 24-hour hand locked into *your* timezone, it is perfect for the GMT compass trick (point the 24-hour hand at the sun and 12 o’clock on the dial is North). Though, I’m not sure a claimed 50m water resistant watch would be my first choice for a hiking watch.
NitPick #2:
Generalizing from other Seagull watches, I knew ahead of time what I was getting into. OCD people should not look at these watches under strong magnification. Under normal up close eyes, the watch looks perfect. Under magnification, one can see a little too much oil on the gears in the back through the exhibition case back. Also found a spec of dust on the inside...fortunately just one.
I bought this watch on AliExpress for $587, though it's also sold on the Sugess website for $619. It took 2.5 weeks to arrive.
Review of an affordable flying tourbillon... the watch geek's mechanical lava lamp
Yes
No
- Inexpensive by orders of magnitude
- Dial and case look great
- Flying tourbillon is as promised
- Questionable usefulness 24-hour complication
- Microscope inspection discouraged especially for OCD
- 21mm band width choice
I’m a software engineer and watch enthusiast. I’m not excited about brand or heritage, but rather engineering tech.... spring drive, solar GPS, electrostatic drive, transistor tuning fork regulation,...
On a personal level, this watch has been the most thought provoking of any watch purchases I've ever made, with the thought streams going in many different directions....
There is the historical aspect of researching this cutting edge vanguard technology from 222 years ago, i.e the spring drive of the 1800's.
Why so many different variants of tourbillons, and why do the top mechanical watch makers keep designing new tourbillon variants....
Why are they still 5 to 6 figures in Europe? Will 3 figure mass produced versions affect the number of handmade 5 figure entries from the European market?
Is the price disparity due to mass industrial production moving away from limited hand made runs…. or is it due to nose thumbing luxury marketing, because such a functionally useless doodad is just adorning kinetic art eye candy and the chinese are messing up the luxury value with their low prices?
How is it not well know that SeaGull produces a quarter of all automatic movements globally, with a majority of their market not being in China.
Who are the other 5 chinese tourbillon makers?
I will buy one at some point. It's more likely to sit on the desk in front of me than on my wrist.
Incredible!
I remember studying the Big 3 TV networks in the U.S. In their heyday, they were the most profitable companies imaginable. Everybody knew one another - they all attended the same country clubs, they all had friends in common, etc., etc. Which enabled the three networks to effectively collude, without breaking any laws. The 22-minutes of programming per half-hour? A standard set by the 3. Upfronts that limited advertisers' abilities to negotiate prices for commercial slots? "Counter-programming" that ensured that no network competed directly with another network for the same audience in any given time slot?
These guys were geniuses! They learned how to game the system to create oligopolist profits that have rarely been seen throughout history. They did it so well that they were able to kill off any and all other deep pocketed aspiring entrants into the market too... until Fox figured out a way to enter.
All of this is a long way of saying that when you have a limited number of big market players (Swatch, Rolex, LVMH, Richemont, Patek, AP) all concentrated in a tiny geography (Switzerland), where everyone knows everyone else through generations... it's easy to get into an oligopolistic mindset / framework to drive margins at the expense of consumers.
Too bad for the big Swiss guys they can't get the Chinese nor the Japanese to play along!
Really interested in Sugess' tourbillon series and have browsed through their whole site a number of times. I agree this is one of their most tasteful dials. Very good of you to post some videos. The tilted escapement is quite jarring!!
Being in the GIS industry I'm especially drawn towards the kitsch aesthetic of their enamel worldtimer... I just wish they weren't using the "Chinese factory default" typeface for the city names.
Incredible!
I remember studying the Big 3 TV networks in the U.S. In their heyday, they were the most profitable companies imaginable. Everybody knew one another - they all attended the same country clubs, they all had friends in common, etc., etc. Which enabled the three networks to effectively collude, without breaking any laws. The 22-minutes of programming per half-hour? A standard set by the 3. Upfronts that limited advertisers' abilities to negotiate prices for commercial slots? "Counter-programming" that ensured that no network competed directly with another network for the same audience in any given time slot?
These guys were geniuses! They learned how to game the system to create oligopolist profits that have rarely been seen throughout history. They did it so well that they were able to kill off any and all other deep pocketed aspiring entrants into the market too... until Fox figured out a way to enter.
All of this is a long way of saying that when you have a limited number of big market players (Swatch, Rolex, LVMH, Richemont, Patek, AP) all concentrated in a tiny geography (Switzerland), where everyone knows everyone else through generations... it's easy to get into an oligopolistic mindset / framework to drive margins at the expense of consumers.
Too bad for the big Swiss guys they can't get the Chinese nor the Japanese to play along!
Products intended for a luxury market certainly wouldn’t want to compete by discounting. It makes sense that “Swiss made” label would form the basis of an oligopoly. All companies in it are happy and can rest on their laurels and focus on marketing wins like astronauts and race cars. It’s problematic for them when Seiko/GS is innovating, and Chinese companies keep improving the quality of their mass production and selling on quantity. I’m surprised that it has been working for as long as it has. COSC standard with a +/- 2 sec per day seems about 50 years out of date, especially when spring drives are doing 0.04 sec per day. On the low end, chinese companies focus on inexpensive for the masses, and rapid tech improvements on manufacturing and quality look poised to take over the bottom end.
Really interested in Sugess' tourbillon series and have browsed through their whole site a number of times. I agree this is one of their most tasteful dials. Very good of you to post some videos. The tilted escapement is quite jarring!!
Being in the GIS industry I'm especially drawn towards the kitsch aesthetic of their enamel worldtimer... I just wish they weren't using the "Chinese factory default" typeface for the city names.
This particular tourbillon with the world timer, is strangely highly discounted, at $280, though I see that with tomorrow’s AliExpress sale, it’s going to sell for $222. Insane. Unfortunately, one tourbillon is enough for me 😂
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mMMKXcu
On a personal level, this watch has been the most thought provoking of any watch purchases I've ever made, with the thought streams going in many different directions....
There is the historical aspect of researching this cutting edge vanguard technology from 222 years ago, i.e the spring drive of the 1800's.
Why so many different variants of tourbillons, and why do the top mechanical watch makers keep designing new tourbillon variants....
Why are they still 5 to 6 figures in Europe? Will 3 figure mass produced versions affect the number of handmade 5 figure entries from the European market?
Is the price disparity due to mass industrial production moving away from limited hand made runs…. or is it due to nose thumbing luxury marketing, because such a functionally useless doodad is just adorning kinetic art eye candy and the chinese are messing up the luxury value with their low prices?
How is it not well know that SeaGull produces a quarter of all automatic movements globally, with a majority of their market not being in China.
Who are the other 5 chinese tourbillon makers?
Thank you for the post!
I don’t buy from China as much as possible- do not want to support that government - but enjoyed reading everything, cheers
You mentioned no non Chinese options under 10k - Horage makes grade 5 titanium watches with titanium and silicon tourbillons for about 9,900 USD , price includes shipping, import costs and taxes (1 price includes everything)
No they aren’t mass produced, but put your name down and they give you an option to buy next build cycle. I didn’t need to wait long to place a pre order.
The other nice thing, they believe the ‘Swiss made’ = 50% value is a scam on watch buyers, they source everything from Germany and Switzerland and build in Switzerland
The Tourbillon 1 and now Lensman 1.1 both are in grade 5 Ti and are 100m safe and designed not just as GADA, but to actually use for sports.
Read the tourbillon section from the website:
https://www.horage.com/lensman-11
This particular tourbillon with the world timer, is strangely highly discounted, at $280, though I see that with tomorrow’s AliExpress sale, it’s going to sell for $222. Insane. Unfortunately, one tourbillon is enough for me 😂
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mMMKXcu
I really appreciate that you told me about this, but I also kind of hate you now. Nothing personal. Please nobody else give me any more useful market information for the next couple months 😵💫
As with so many other AliExpress brands it's fascinating to try and pick apart the slight differences between what Giv and Sugess are offering... it looks like the two globes use the same reference art, but I see a lot of subtle differences in the colours, maybe because the enamel printing process is slightly hokey and hard to set up. And the layout of the city name index is completely different, with a weird permanent bicolour on the Giv model. The movement backs are also really dissimilar, which is really odd because I would otherwise assume they both use the same Seagull movement.
Piecing it all together, I would assume that Giv/Aesop are making a clone movement in-house, otherwise I can't imagine how they're competing on price. Does Sugess hate them, or encourage them... who knows. Sometimes I wish I was an industrial historian because I'm sure this is exactly how our Western brands acted in the 19th century.
I may be interested in some of these high end chinese movements but i have doubts about longevity and service. Anybody has actual experience to share in this regard?
I may be interested in some of these high end chinese movements but i have doubts about longevity and service. Anybody has actual experience to share in this regard?
I think I've seen a watchuseek forum post where someone had a sugess tourbilon for about 1-2 years and said it worked well. But I guess who knows
Thank you for the post!
I don’t buy from China as much as possible- do not want to support that government - but enjoyed reading everything, cheers
You mentioned no non Chinese options under 10k - Horage makes grade 5 titanium watches with titanium and silicon tourbillons for about 9,900 USD , price includes shipping, import costs and taxes (1 price includes everything)
No they aren’t mass produced, but put your name down and they give you an option to buy next build cycle. I didn’t need to wait long to place a pre order.
The other nice thing, they believe the ‘Swiss made’ = 50% value is a scam on watch buyers, they source everything from Germany and Switzerland and build in Switzerland
The Tourbillon 1 and now Lensman 1.1 both are in grade 5 Ti and are 100m safe and designed not just as GADA, but to actually use for sports.
Read the tourbillon section from the website:
https://www.horage.com/lensman-11
That horage tourbillon is probably the most affordable european made that I’ve seen. I can’t say european brand because I’ve ran across some european microbrands putting in seagull tourbillon movements 😂. The horage is a beautiful looking watch.
Thanks for sharing. I never knew this watch existed and didn't even know they did tourbillons! Crazy that this is cheaper than my lorier.
I may be interested in some of these high end chinese movements but i have doubts about longevity and service. Anybody has actual experience to share in this regard?
I don’t have any data on that, though I do know Seagull has been making tourbillon since 2005. Personally I’m not too concerned since it’s not a primary watch and so it’s longevity stretches when the movement isn’t in motion. Regarding service, I suspect repair cost would likely exceeds the cost of a new watch, so in effect that price point isn’t serviceable.
Incredible!
I remember studying the Big 3 TV networks in the U.S. In their heyday, they were the most profitable companies imaginable. Everybody knew one another - they all attended the same country clubs, they all had friends in common, etc., etc. Which enabled the three networks to effectively collude, without breaking any laws. The 22-minutes of programming per half-hour? A standard set by the 3. Upfronts that limited advertisers' abilities to negotiate prices for commercial slots? "Counter-programming" that ensured that no network competed directly with another network for the same audience in any given time slot?
These guys were geniuses! They learned how to game the system to create oligopolist profits that have rarely been seen throughout history. They did it so well that they were able to kill off any and all other deep pocketed aspiring entrants into the market too... until Fox figured out a way to enter.
All of this is a long way of saying that when you have a limited number of big market players (Swatch, Rolex, LVMH, Richemont, Patek, AP) all concentrated in a tiny geography (Switzerland), where everyone knows everyone else through generations... it's easy to get into an oligopolistic mindset / framework to drive margins at the expense of consumers.
Too bad for the big Swiss guys they can't get the Chinese nor the Japanese to play along!
Thanks for the TV lesson.Asian market benefits us(with limited funds).
That’s pretty cool,I bought a cheap tourbillion too.it a black aesoh(brand I never heard of).So far I like.
Thanks for the review!
I really dislike when companies choose an odd size lug opening, should be standard even widths only. If I could rule the world, that is on the list of things to change.
Thanks for sharing. I never knew this watch existed and didn't even know they did tourbillons! Crazy that this is cheaper than my lorier.
Ali express has several models.Pretty cheap too.