Let’s end this homage watch debate once and for all

The debate has been going on for years and will , undoubtedly, be going on ad nauseum.

This will hardly put an end to it.

Like the man says:

Never from this perspective though. I’m not presenting speculation. These are real individuals who are clearly experiencing buyers’ remorse. Homage watches are absolutely not competitive with luxury watches, and by no means do I think that we should be buying them in protest of Rolex or Tudor because they’re as good, or anything like that. I respect and appreciate what luxury watches offer the collector. However, as mentioned, it doesn’t make sense to drop a ton of money on a watch that you won’t even want to keep. Perhaps €3000-10000 is not much to some, but to many many people it’s a metric crap ton of cash. People already know this, which is why you see so many posts online about how they upgraded to a real Rolex after testing the rep. The issue is that people will always require the idea of a rep, but homages are a perfect way of doing away with the dangerous side of reps. It doesn’t matter if they’re hated, because it’s quite clear that they’re useful if they can pull others away from reps.

Like the man above said...........................................

It’s a necessary topic to get through because it always ends up going the way of delusion. I can assure you that a decent amount of individuals are going to end up buying reps either intentionally, or through a scam because they tried fo pick up a bargain on a watch that they couldn’t really afford. It’s just not realistic to assume that we can do away with reps and homages, and that all collectors will end up being able to acquire their grail watch.

I think it’s completely unreasonable and out of touch to deny people the hobby simply because they can’t afford ‘the original’- I don’t even think it’s fair to call homages starter or temporary- they can be someone’s regular watch full stop

People who oppose others wearing what they want either have a conflict of interest in peddling these expensive lux goods or they desperately cling to the illusion of exclusivity and prestige and want to deny that feeling from others

People only in the hobby to make money are morons and contribute nearly 0 to society

I agree with you. Although I have moved onto luxury brands, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with purchasing something that you can afford and that you feel comfortable purchasing. After noticing how many individuals from the rep space seem to find interest in homages, I genuinely think they have the potential to kill the rep space. The new Sugess V4 Chronograph is a good example of how an alternative watch can offer a great experience without infringing on patent law.

I don’t think the rep space will fade anytime soon unfortunately. So many people who wear watches are just after the brand name on their wrist. Also re: an earlier point of yours I think it will be unavoidable to have rep parts mixed into some homages unless the assembler makes an effort to avoid those manufacturers of parts who often have more competitive pricing quality scale etc for components

We are agreeing here but I think even the framing of ‘moving on to luxury’ and qualifying the purchase as what someone can afford is misguided (not trying to critique you I think this is most people’s view). Like objectively the lux brands offer greater material quality and intangibles like prestige but I don’t think it’s necessarily something to aspire to even if someone has lots of money. Some people are more attracted to luxury pieces and some don’t really care- of course practical constraints exist but I think the way people talk about the space gives others the impression (especially to non enthusiasts) that all watches are merely substitutes for a few elites. Not saying that’s what you’re trying to imply just my 2 cents on how people talk about watches and set a dangerous day dream in people’s heads that spending 10k+ on a watch is a cool and normal thing that everyone would do if they could

It won't end the homage debate because then (a) what else would we have to talk about in these fora and (b) there's always going to be people who look down on them and there's always going to be people who believe in their hearts they are "just as good" as the luxury brands and the luxury watch buyers are stupid for overpaying.

It's not going to kill the replica (or as I like to call it, "counterfeit") market either. Watches aren't the only thing counterfeited or homaged. People specifically seek out counterfeits to fool people into thinking they have something they do not actually have (or to fool people into buying a watch that is not what it is represented to be). The fact that two people were interested in trading their counterfeit watches for your homage watches doesn't mean the entire counterfeit economy is about to collapse. Hell, maybe they wanted to replace dials on those Cronos and San Martin watches with counterfeit Rolex dials.

The people in my country are not that sophisticated. Trust me when I say they just wanted to trade because they’re over their reps, or realise that there’s no resale value. It’s happened at least a handful of times by this point, and I think that a lot of normies genuinely do just want a cool looking watch for a stomachable price.

I know that there are dufuses out there that want to trick people to seem cool, but I think that that number might be lower than what we all might initially assume. After all, a lot of people that want to fit in with the in-crowd will just go ahead and dump the full amount on the real thing.

I don’t know when Cronos, San Martin and Sugess first became mega popular, but I want to say this occurred around the same time the luxury market boomed. They’re such good alternatives that it baffles me that people still buy fakes. I’m not sure what the point to spending $1000 on a Submariner clone is, when you can purchase a new Ginault for $1500 or a used Tudor BB58 for $2500. I just don’t understand reps at all these days.

Yes, why do people want famous branded products for very little cash, it really is a mystery? It’s almost like this phenomenon popped up overnight. I guess we’ve never really seen replicas before the internet became a thing, how ever did they come about?

Human nature.

It’s why sh*t happens.

If we have luxury goods, we’ll always have replicas.

Get rid of the luxury goods, problem solved.

Homage watches are different though. They’re akin to denim jeans and polo shirts. It’s rare that it’s executed properly. For instance, have you ever seen how ridiculous homage sneakers look?

The thing is, a lot of rep buyers are just individuals who like cool watches. It’s not necessarily the branding that someone is paying for. Unless they’re actually trying to fool people (often difficult regardless), they usually just like the style of the watch. Rolex watches simply have a more elegant design than a G-Shock.

It’s difficult for me to make this clear, but let’s just say that the individuals I’ve been approached by were definitely not enthusiasts or WISs. They were very much your typical uneducated watch buyer. It’s what gives me hope. I think there’s an aspect of flexing that requires one to purchase the real thing. I think a lot of fakes that go around in the “flex industry” are being passed around as genuine articles and that individuals are often being scammed.

As someone who didn’t know what a Submariner was until May of this year, I can assure you that many regular people don’t actually know what a Rolex or an AP should cost. I just really hope that this is a signifier of a potential positive change, and I don’t think we should keep derailing it as a community.

When we convince others to avoid homage watches, what they’re going to do is either settle for a Timex or attempt to save. A significant portion of those individuals stuck in limbo are going to head over to r/Reptime and spiral. I don’t think the guys pushing against homages have ever considered that particular scenario, or that many rep buyers can actually be converted. Call me naive, or call me an oblivious fool, but until today, it never occurred to me that perhaps rep buyers could actually be swayed.

They won’t do it, and it’s for one simple reason - grey market dealing is built upon snobbery. They’ll never sell volume, so their goal is always to sell margin. They’ll sell lesser pieces to build a relationship with their clients, but the end goal is always to have you buying APs that you don’t like so that they can lowball you or make free profit on you inevitably consigning your luxury watch. Unfortunate, but true.

One funny thing I’ve noticed - aside from homage brands, grey dealers never seem to deal in disruptive brands. They don’t deal in Brellum, they rarely deal in Frédérique Constant, and they definitely don’t deal in brands like Monta or Baltic. Best not to let the luxury buyers know that there are classy alternatives at a fraction of the price 😅.

I think I get what you're saying.

The only time I've had "issues" with homage watches online is when I was trying to find some kind of validation for my shitty watch purchase. I'm not saying homage watches are shitty purchases for everyone; that is simply a perspective I have for myself. There's never going to be a time, at least currently, when I look at a homage purchase and go "man that was a sound decision". I buy them for shameless fun and I'm perfectly fine with that.

Homage watches have provided a huge influence to my current collection and I acknowledge their importance to "the process". But that process doesn't require any kind of special skill, so I'm also not going to be handing out "good-job" trophies to people seeking pats on the back for trying to prove their homage is just as good.

Something something, buy what you like.

Buy what you like and can afford. If it makes you happy without making you poor, you did it right. I have more expensive watches, but I find myself reaching for the Steeldive/Seiko Willard homage. It's way nicer than it has any right to be. I absolutely love it. As far as I can tell, it's very well made. I could care less if a fat Dutchman likes it or not.

I wasn’t referring to Ashford and Jomashop but more so the the other more personable grey dealers. I should have made that clear, but yeah.

I read a lot of interesting thing here. I like to add only one. Watches are just jewellery. The only piece of jewellery that is universaly accepted for men.

The purpose of a jewllery is to complete the look or/and to show the status. This is why we accept homages (made for the look) and we reject replicas (made for fake status). It is the same as earrings for womens. There are designer diamonds, platina, rhodium, gold earings and also inexpensive, mass product ,silver whith coloured stones and copied design from big brands. Wood, steel, shells, bones, plastic ... All woman know those differences and use the jewelry they afford for look. Of course every women or man wants more... But if it looks right and they afford, who cares about the "borrowed" design? The only catastrophic event for a woman could be to sit in the same room whith another woman whith the same type of earrings. 😂 Or to pretend to be something you're not ...

Late edit: replaced the world clones whith homages

To be fair, I have been quoted saying some relatively delusional stuff with regards to aspirational luxury. Yeah no you’re not incorrect at all 😂. It probably isn’t the most normal thing to drop a ton of money on a wrist watch, but I personally think that up until a certain price point, it’s not totally out of question. In South Africa the USDZAR/EURZAR conversion is quite interesting - especially because of what can be purchased at certain price points. When people quote $/€80,000-300,000 watches, my thoughts go to - “that could buy you a decent house.”

However, R300,000 in South Africa can’t really even buy you all that great of a car. Perhaps a 8 year old BMW with a fair bit of mileage or whatever, but nothing you’d necessarily prefer to own. Delusional, yes, but I think anything up until R200,000 (~$11000) is relatively within reason. I don’t think I’d personally be able to walk around with something like that on my wrist, but I’m sure there are some people who can stomach it. When I see gents walking around with $40,000+ watches though, I can’t really wrap my brain around it hehe.

In a perfect world, clones would be no issue. Unfortunately, humans scam one another. For that reason, clones cannot be a thing. I personally consider my watches gadgets. They’re not necessarily jewellery, but I wouldn’t say they’re necessarily pure tools either. I actually do use them to tell the time (especially at the gym or while walking around town). I also think it’s nice to just glance down at it when you’re bored.

One of the reasons i write here is to improve my english skills.I first write clones where i wanted to write hommages.

You are right about clones and scammers.

Just as many people want a Rolex to show off how well they have done and have no interest in the watch other than the flex then there will always be people who will want the fake Rolex for the flex on the cheap they have no interest in the design so a homage holds no interest for them they just want people to think they have a Rolex

Haha no worries. That makes sense now, it changes the entire statement 😅.

If you’d humour me; do you personally know any individuals who don’t care for watches, but who’d want to impress people with a fake watch? I personally don’t know anyone in my friend group that would do that. I find it difficult to believe there are that many ultra-shallow people out there. I feel like most people would either save up, or just not compete in that sector. It seems to me that most rep buyers want to stick it to the industry, or straight up scam.

I know a car salesman who has both a fake RM and an AP overseas and passes them off as real.

Ok but like, that’s a car salesmen.

I think two invaluable arguments for homages are:

1. Getting a watch that you do not necessarily want to spend crazy money on. I have been looking at a Tudor BB Pro GMT homage that is quartz. Quartz GMTs make sense to me as they are always ready. The GMT is not a valued complication as I am unable to travel to justify its use. As of recently my family has been reconnected with family in Guam (+15 from where I live) and I think it would be nice too quickly see their time when scheduling calls.

2. When introducing new collectors to the industry (kids). We are wanting to bring up a new generation of collectors to pass this hobby onto, but is it wise to give a 13 year old a new submariner, I would argue no. I think it’s necessary to spark interest, but would rather lose $200 on an homage being left in a random locker room than a $10 sub. I will have people argue that we need to teach our kids to value and take care of things, and I 100% agree and strive to do with my children, that being said, as a foster and now adoptive dad, there were a lot of formative years where I was not in control and good habits like taking care of your things weren’t taught, so now I just teach later and teach often as it’s harder to learn the older you get.

I believe the Brand name of a watch should be indicative with it’s quality of human time and effort invested in the actual object. The more blood sweat and tears to design a watch is transferred into the body of the object along with quality materials and careful construction, decoration and overall asceticism. People buy these objects for far deeper reasons than why others buy them . It’s a complicated area of discussion really . People are chasing this feeling in these invested objects on our wrists . I just know I completely understand that a rep or homage do not carry authentic passion and pride that an original designer had in mind for their authentic offerings. It’s ok to wear a Homage or Rep , but YOU KNOW it is not real the feeling of pride and effort to attain something with no soul. Zombie watches. Just my very skewed opinion on this subject.

I'm not Easley influenced. I don't care what other people like, or jump on band wagons. Sometimes an opportunity will pass me by but i don't care. I don't carry a cell phone every where i go. My experience comes from having old cars. I always tried to fix them up as original as possible. That said i picked the cars i liked. I had two 1968 442 Oldsmobile's. Not popular but they called to me. One post coupe and one convertible. I sold them both because in this day and age i didn't like the attention they got, and all the finger pointing, etc. When i was a young man i wore a Seiko watch and Vuarnet sunglasses and Nike shoe's and Levies jeans. I had to change the shoes because Nikes are junk, and switch to Carhart because levies are junk , but i still have two items that retain my identity, the sunglasses and the watch. Not a status symbol, but a blue collar man that dose not like change, but will, when products change for the worse. I personally never saw a Rolex that i liked or wanted. People that would pay that much for an over rated over priced watch are stupid, I suppose. If i were to buy one, i would not have a fake one either. Just like with the cars, real and original. And probably one reason why i am bummed, because i walk around havening an artificial hip, making me not factory original. No one can tell, but i can. Duane........ Black Diamond, WA 980910

That’s a fair way of looking at it, but the reality is that many people will never be able to, or want to, purchase something from a luxury brand.

Nor should they ever feel compelled too unless they truly wish to reward themselves in such a manner. They are really not necessary, they are just things after all .