The origin of a watch and over priced brands
So as I think most of us know microbrands are designing watches via a design package entering into a contract with a Chinese factory to build the case + strap/buckle/braclet then buying on the market movements either Swiss (SW200/300) or a Miyota. So far so good. Depending on the design and finish most are happy to pay between £400-£900 ish give or take. The problem I have is when this model is followed and the cost goes to £2000. The standard model is already double or triple of that of a Chinese watch with the exact same specs so it’s already a premium for someone designing the watch in the U.K./US/EU. I think there is a concerted effort to hide or deliberately not disclose which parts are made in China when in fact we are often very happy with the watches the micros are churning out…..let’s discuss.
Live in Scotland, winter is long and dark, lume is important 🤪
How would you know that the part is made in China? You would have to believe a European manufacturer, even if they are not a microbrand? Unless you are buying a highly artisan brand, you absolutely have no certainty about the country of origin. So, I am sure you could go have a beer with someone who decorated your movement at Glashütte, but short of that you have very little insight or recourse. Welcome to the world of long supply chains.
How would you know that the part is made in China? You would have to believe a European manufacturer, even if they are not a microbrand? Unless you are buying a highly artisan brand, you absolutely have no certainty about the country of origin. So, I am sure you could go have a beer with someone who decorated your movement at Glashütte, but short of that you have very little insight or recourse. Welcome to the world of long supply chains.
This. The better brands are sourcing and building in Switzerland.
If you buy a Swiss watch that is labeled ‘Swiss made’ it carries with it certain connotations:
https://www.gearpatrol.com/watches/a596884/swiss-made-watches/
If you buy a Swiss watch that is labeled ‘Swiss made’ it carries with it certain connotations:
https://www.gearpatrol.com/watches/a596884/swiss-made-watches/
Right, this reminds me of the world of online shopping channels, which I have a morbid fascination with. Some of the European channels are peddling "Swiss Made" watches, which seem somewhat odd.
The requirements are largely by value, and Swiss has one of the highest, if not the highest, labor cost in the world. If the watch must be assembled in Switzerland, 50% of the movement parts must be from Switzerland, then you can make watch "Swiss Made" if case, dial, bracelet etc. are sourced as cheaply as possible, because the assembly is very expensive, and you have a Swiss movement. Pushing those watches with P024 movements was popular for a while.
I also recall Ronda pushing the limit on the foreign parts content up to the 50% allowable limit on its quartz movements.
The basic premise of your subject is flawed. “Over priced brands” is an idea without basis.
***Everything*** is subjectivity worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it. Not a penny more, or less. The amount of profit or profit margin is completely irrelevant to, and of no business to anyone other than the seller.
Right, this reminds me of the world of online shopping channels, which I have a morbid fascination with. Some of the European channels are peddling "Swiss Made" watches, which seem somewhat odd.
The requirements are largely by value, and Swiss has one of the highest, if not the highest, labor cost in the world. If the watch must be assembled in Switzerland, 50% of the movement parts must be from Switzerland, then you can make watch "Swiss Made" if case, dial, bracelet etc. are sourced as cheaply as possible, because the assembly is very expensive, and you have a Swiss movement. Pushing those watches with P024 movements was popular for a while.
I also recall Ronda pushing the limit on the foreign parts content up to the 50% allowable limit on its quartz movements.
According to this article, they raised it to 60% recently. There are also some restrictions about construction.
According to this article, they raised it to 60% recently. There are also some restrictions about construction.
Yes, just saw that while reading the article. The article is also right that "manufacturing costs", but in particular "value" are very fuzzy terms. What I have found is that the better Swiss manufacturers don't lead with the "Swiss Made" label.
Interestingly enough, the "Made in the USA" is almost impossible to achieve with the current state of globalization, and "Made in Germany" means almost nothing, as it really hasn't been officially defined.
The basic premise of your subject is flawed. “Over priced brands” is an idea without basis.
***Everything*** is subjectivity worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it. Not a penny more, or less. The amount of profit or profit margin is completely irrelevant to, and of no business to anyone other than the seller.
Down that road lies madness, and decay.
The basic premise of your subject is flawed. “Over priced brands” is an idea without basis.
***Everything*** is subjectivity worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it. Not a penny more, or less. The amount of profit or profit margin is completely irrelevant to, and of no business to anyone other than the seller.
In an ideal market, yes. But the market for watches is not very transparent, and neither does the distribution model for luxury watches necessarily support transparency. (How many lesser watches did you have to buy before you get a chance to buy a Rolex? Are pre-owned watches truly sold at the prices advertised? Or are manufacturers buying them back from a dealer rather than selling them below MSRP?) I think there is only a true (retail) price for watches that are sold as new on grey market sites.
I would agree there are "over-priced" watches, but that may just mean that the price isn't necessary accurate or even known, as these transactions aren't public.
As such, the question is still valid IMHO, even though it may be very hard to answer.
The basic premise of your subject is flawed. “Over priced brands” is an idea without basis.
***Everything*** is subjectivity worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it. Not a penny more, or less. The amount of profit or profit margin is completely irrelevant to, and of no business to anyone other than the seller.
I think you are wrong. I haven’t named brands for a reason as I think that most don’t take the piss however please point me to the microbrand that manufactures their own case and bracelets. The basic premise of my point was that on one hand we seem to have an upper limit for a Chinese watch however the majority of microbrands are in fact Chinese with a Swiss or Japanese movement dropped in. If you’re happy to pay 2/3k or more for this charge ahead. My point is about value, irony and marketing and exactly how much your willing to pay for a Chinese watch with a Swiss/Japanese movement.
Yes, just saw that while reading the article. The article is also right that "manufacturing costs", but in particular "value" are very fuzzy terms. What I have found is that the better Swiss manufacturers don't lead with the "Swiss Made" label.
Interestingly enough, the "Made in the USA" is almost impossible to achieve with the current state of globalization, and "Made in Germany" means almost nothing, as it really hasn't been officially defined.
Exactly. Patek could state Swiss made and include 40% Chinese parts to comply. As long as 80% of the costs as in Switzerland then happy days!
I think you are wrong. I haven’t named brands for a reason as I think that most don’t take the piss however please point me to the microbrand that manufactures their own case and bracelets. The basic premise of my point was that on one hand we seem to have an upper limit for a Chinese watch however the majority of microbrands are in fact Chinese with a Swiss or Japanese movement dropped in. If you’re happy to pay 2/3k or more for this charge ahead. My point is about value, irony and marketing and exactly how much your willing to pay for a Chinese watch with a Swiss/Japanese movement.
I know Sangin Instruments, Weiss, Colorado Watch Company (Vortic) and some others are working on, or already have some cases, faraday caged, etc made in house.
Sēl Instruments out of AZ also does everything in house, out of Grade 5 Ti nonetheless. But there is a significant price difference. TINSTAFL.
Not saying those here, but the general public on Reddit will whine and bemoan the costs of a US made case, then turn around and whine about everything being made in China.
On that note, if anyone is interested, I'd HIGHLY recommend checking out Sēl. Costly yes. But fantastically over engineered tough tool watches with a very unbreakable metal bracelet. I have been trying to pick up a second hand variant for years to no avail. Owners don't seem to part with them. Which speaks volumes to the watch build.
Jodie from one more watch describes the journey he went on to launch his watch brand. This can be simplified to forming a design, contacting 3 factories in China, paying for prototypes, pick a winner, finalise the design, place the order and bingo. This is the model the vast majority of microbrands are following regardless where they are in the world. If you’re unsure ask them. Before you order a watch ask them (if you care) to tell you where the parts come from.
https://youtu.be/Pvh1CyLQO5k?si=wfJykgMNC53DLTXZ
It is largely irrelevant where the parts are made. The design, logistical and manufacturing skills of the brand (including its subcontractors) are what count. In my view, the difference lies in what the microbrand is offering. Is it simply outsourced everything with great marketing or is there a skilled designer and/or craftsman behind the scenes. Is there financial backing? We need to also remember that there are several barriers to entry in the industry so getting out there with a low priced hit is essential to make a mark. Where the brand goes from there is up to the owners.
In addition, there is a lot of competition among microbrands. So how does a micro distinguish itself? The micro could be and remain the exceptionally built, lower costing "value brand" (not my favorite term but it fits here) or it could move upscale differentiating itself from Swiss and Japanese big brands. In the price range of $2000, you hear micros referred to as independents sometimes. I am skeptical when I hear that label. A micro can be a very good, expensive microbrand -- full stop.
It is largely irrelevant where the parts are made. The design, logistical and manufacturing skills of the brand (including its subcontractors) are what count. In my view, the difference lies in what the microbrand is offering. Is it simply outsourced everything with great marketing or is there a skilled designer and/or craftsman behind the scenes. Is there financial backing? We need to also remember that there are several barriers to entry in the industry so getting out there with a low priced hit is essential to make a mark. Where the brand goes from there is up to the owners.
In addition, there is a lot of competition among microbrands. So how does a micro distinguish itself? The micro could be and remain the exceptionally built, lower costing "value brand" (not my favorite term but it fits here) or it could move upscale differentiating itself from Swiss and Japanese big brands. In the price range of $2000, you hear micros referred to as independents sometimes. I am skeptical when I hear that label. A micro can be a very good, expensive microbrand -- full stop.
Correct. Example. The Studio underdog watermelon is a Chinese watch. Great design and 3 times more expensive than the 1963 that shares the same movement. That’s a hell of a mark up for the design. My question is you can pay a LOT more for the same business model if you drop in an SW200. Would you pay 2k for a well finished watch with a Swiss movement or would you like to pay £600 for the exact same watch made in the exact same Chinese factory.
Even Rolex has parts made in China.
I think you’re clouding up the issue including origin into the discussion. A top tier ETA Valjoux 7750 or even an SW500 sells for around $300, yet after put into a case behind a dial, and it may sell for $2k-$12k… and this may have nothing to do with manufacturing in China. In a luxury market, it’s hard to make sense, because cost is based on what people are willing to pay, and that willingness has a lot to do with images built up in their head from marketing. “Made is Switzerland” only means something because of marketing despite technological, accuracy and price superiority coming out of Seiko and Miyota labs. One thing i do love about Sea-Gull (Chinese) being in the market, is that having put no investment into marketing, so we often see many of their excellent products selling for what one would presume is slightly above production costs… giving us a real idea on what what it costs to build a watch that runs on half a century+ old technology. There are spectacular good deals from Chinese vendors with no investment in marketing. I love my $60 1000m Addiesdive puck diving watch with saphire crystal, reliable accurate NH35 movement and awesome lume… I like it almost as much as I like my $60 tuna. 😄
Nothing wrong with parts made in China as long as the quality is good
Totally agree
Even Rolex has parts made in China.
I was under the impression that Rolex and fully integrated now. Which parts?
I think you’re clouding up the issue including origin into the discussion. A top tier ETA Valjoux 7750 or even an SW500 sells for around $300, yet after put into a case behind a dial, and it may sell for $2k-$12k… and this may have nothing to do with manufacturing in China. In a luxury market, it’s hard to make sense, because cost is based on what people are willing to pay, and that willingness has a lot to do with images built up in their head from marketing. “Made is Switzerland” only means something because of marketing despite technological, accuracy and price superiority coming out of Seiko and Miyota labs. One thing i do love about Sea-Gull (Chinese) being in the market, is that having put no investment into marketing, so we often see many of their excellent products selling for what one would presume is slightly above production costs… giving us a real idea on what what it costs to build a watch that runs on half a century+ old technology. There are spectacular good deals from Chinese vendors with no investment in marketing. I love my $60 1000m Addiesdive puck diving watch with saphire crystal, reliable accurate NH35 movement and awesome lume… I like it almost as much as I like my $60 tuna. 😄
My main point was not about brands dropping high cost movements into a case and then deciding to multiply by x to determine if we will pay. It was microbrands that drop in a sw200/Miyota or an nh35 and charge top dollar. When in fact you can get a comparable watch from the same Chinese factory at the same quality for a lower cost. Sea-Gull spend a huge amount on advertising, Addiesdive also market well and I would say they spend more on advertising than the standard Microbrand who basically send free watches to selected YouTubers.
The problem is that people associate China with cheap, they have some of the best manufacturers in the world, but you get what you pay for. Take a look at folding knives, there are cheap well made knives from China and then there are expensive very well made knives as well.
The problem is that people associate China with cheap, they have some of the best manufacturers in the world, but you get what you pay for. Take a look at folding knives, there are cheap well made knives from China and then there are expensive very well made knives as well.
Same all over. My point isn’t to downgrade what the Chinese do, far from it they are a manufacturing powerhouse. It’s the paractice of some microbrands who don’t disclose where they are buying parts, their websites never state anything about what they do and then charge top dollar for a US/EU/UK designed watch which has essentially been mostly made in China. It seems that as long as a SW200 is dropped in then we are happy to pay a lot North of 1k.
Couldn’t care less where the parts come from just the quality and design why made in China is automatically looked down is at this point just daft
I’m sat here typing this on my iPhone and this is in my opinion one of the best made consumer items you can buy.
Couldn’t care less where the parts come from just the quality and design why made in China is automatically looked down is at this point just daft
I’m sat here typing this on my iPhone and this is in my opinion one of the best made consumer items you can buy.
Thats my thoughts as well but if you could buy the exact same phone for 50% less direct from China (exact in every way) or pay double to Apple or Samsung. What would you do?
Yes, just saw that while reading the article. The article is also right that "manufacturing costs", but in particular "value" are very fuzzy terms. What I have found is that the better Swiss manufacturers don't lead with the "Swiss Made" label.
Interestingly enough, the "Made in the USA" is almost impossible to achieve with the current state of globalization, and "Made in Germany" means almost nothing, as it really hasn't been officially defined.
Most are built and or assembled here in the USA. The requirements are being labeled as "Made in USA" are far more strict than the ubiquitous "Made in Switzerland".
https://monochrome-watches.com/in-depth-analysis-j-n-shapiro-resurgence-first-usa-made-mechanical-watch-since-1969-specs-price/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CFor%20a%20product%20to%20be,must%20be%20of%20US%20origin.
Thats my thoughts as well but if you could buy the exact same phone for 50% less direct from China (exact in every way) or pay double to Apple or Samsung. What would you do?
I’m still buying the iPhone because I like the fact that they are a large company with places I can walk into to get help if something goes wrong same thing with watches. Some of what I’m paying for goes towards the peace of mind and I’m good with that.
Most are built and or assembled here in the USA. The requirements are being labeled as "Made in USA" are far more strict than the ubiquitous "Made in Switzerland".
https://monochrome-watches.com/in-depth-analysis-j-n-shapiro-resurgence-first-usa-made-mechanical-watch-since-1969-specs-price/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CFor%20a%20product%20to%20be,must%20be%20of%20US%20origin.
That’s really informative, thank you. It would be really interesting to have a directory of manufacturers that state this. On that point though what does assembly in the USA mean and what if a US watch supplier puts New York on the dial. Does that mean they are subject to the same rules?
I’m still buying the iPhone because I like the fact that they are a large company with places I can walk into to get help if something goes wrong same thing with watches. Some of what I’m paying for goes towards the peace of mind and I’m good with that.
Interesting because that almost the opposite to a microbrand. We often debate on here poor customer support from certain microbrands (Smiths and the like) definitely something to think about
There are a bunch of examples of brands that name their company after where they are from. Some examples are #cincinnati #longislandwatch #tsaobaltimore and #towson just to name a few. Many are named after the city or town where they are based and or assembled.
Yeah, it isn't just micros. CW, Breitling, Doxa and a host of other "Swiss Made" brands have cases, dials and bracelets made in China under contract. It's just that they demand a higher level of finishing. They pay more and the consumer pays WAY more.
Save for the likes of Rolex who does damned near everything in-house and some German made cases, every part than can be is made somewhere in Asia.