The Values of Value
This will be a long-form post, so grab your favorite beverage and settle in. I promise to break it up with pictures.
One thing that is great about WatchCrunch is observing what different folks value. For the most part, we can all agree that it is okay to appreciate what each other value. This is lost on some, in which case I am not sure there is any saving the person who insists a Rolex or Omega is overvalued. No amount of logic or pictures will convince that person otherwise. To many, a NH35 is and will always be a better value, as if there is no sliding scale on value. I posit there is absolutely a sliding scale on value and it is the appreciation of that scale that makes this hobby what it is.
Not a week goes by without being asked questions like: “Are in-house movements better than off the shelf?” or “Is <insert inexpensive brand> just as good as <expensive brand>?” These are easy triggering questions for many meant for stirring up a no-win debate, often divided along the lines of personal preference and vs. empathy and understanding up and down the price spectrum. Again, there are folks who cannot fathom anyone spending $10K on a watch. I suggest jumping off here if your heels are dug into that logic.
Still with us? Cool. Two recent occurrences had me questioning the idea of value in the multi-thousand dollar space. One, I will give credit where due, is a recent video in which Teddy Baldassare visited Glashütte Original. I don’t usually consume his content as much of it is geared towards new folks in the hobby, but this video is excellent; Letting the brand do the talking. The video details the painstaking and passionate process of making a watch at GO. The amount of handmade artistry, the build, regulation, and testing. That is what owners pay for. Comparably, there are watches sold significantly higher with less to offer. There is no way one watches the build of one of those SeaQs and does not question why they would pick a Sub first. Seriously, look at the bridge in their watches.
The next point of appreciation is the value of art. Why spend $110 million (that is right millions) for this when I can buy one that looks just like it Homegoods for $39.99 and it comes with a frame?
The trend is similar to watch dials. Remember when Grand Seiko launched the birch and the watch community lost its collective shit about the artistry of the dial? Then they flipped the dial on its side, painted it blue, and called it the Suwa? Well, some may look at the black birch and ask, “Why should I buy that when I can get the Islander for a few hundred bucks?”
Vs.
This logic ignores all that went into making the original; dismissing the artistry, craftsmanship, expertise, and materials that went into making the original. It is okay to find a ton of value in both. Saying one is a better value than the other? Foolish comparison, they are not fighting in the same class and the difference in effort is like walking to your fridge vs. completing the El Camino de Santiago. There is joy in both, but they are not equal.
This GS dial piece leads me to the value of artistry and how underappreciated some dial makers are. An easy brand most of this community loves in AnOrdain. Here is my AnOrdain One for reference that is just lovely:
This enamel dial takes a ton of time and human hours to make, with a 30% failure rate after spending all that time to make it to begin with. When the brand launched, these watches were $1000. That is unthinkable to anyone who has tried to get one since 2020, with secondhand values hitting over $4k. Perspective clients are now waiting until 2027 to get one.
However, the community sleeps on brands like Sartory Billard and a more direct comparison, Lundis Bleus. AnOrdain, recently released the Model Three which is a spectacularly beautiful watch (seriously it is gorgeous). For about the same price, or less in some cases, one could go online and work directly with the owner of Lundis Bleus, Bastien Vuilliomenet, and have a handmade watch with an original enamel dial before they know it. Still impatient? Some are immediately available at select retailers. It is my understanding he makes about 100 watches a year, making them genuinely limited. I will not attempt to discuss the painstaking work that goes into making a single dial, but will refer you to this excellent article for those who really want to nerd out.
This watch comes with a top-grade off-the-shelf movement, but it can be found in watches costing a quarter the price. Is one paying for the movement in this case? Nope. I would be glad to break my subjective “The most I’d pay for a watch using X movement is…” rule. One is paying for the craft of making such a dial. Now, (I applaud you if you are still here) if one does not place value in that, that is fine, but one has to respect the time and effort regardless. All of these brands are wearable art that one should feel proud peacocking.
So when we debate about why we fuss about the little things, THESE are the little things that make the hobby. I can nerd out and totally appreciate how Spinnaker is offering something like the watch below for $199 before discounts just as much as I can freak out about a custom handmade dial costing $4k. Or a German dive watch costing $12k because of an amazing movement. All have their own value and one value is not better than another.
Stay crunchy and be kind.
Watch enthusiast who insists on the next watch being the last.
What is this horological tolerance BS? Is this a watch forum or is this a watch forum?
You will sit down and listen to my extremely well informed opinion on why my absolute assessment of value is actually more correct than your absolute assessment of value in this inherently subjective hobby.
What is this horological tolerance BS? Is this a watch forum or is this a watch forum?
You will sit down and listen to my extremely well informed opinion on why my absolute assessment of value is actually more correct than your absolute assessment of value in this inherently subjective hobby.
Well played. I expect nothing less. :-)
Well played. I expect nothing less. :-)
This is a hobby of tiny mechanical automatons that tell the time somewhat less accurately than the cheapest cellphone on the market.
It greatly amuses and depresses me that people take this hobby so seriously that they can earnestly take offense when someone prioritizes things differently than they do.
We're not doing this to maximize value. We're doing this to have a good time.
This is a hobby of tiny mechanical automatons that tell the time somewhat less accurately than the cheapest cellphone on the market.
It greatly amuses and depresses me that people take this hobby so seriously that they can earnestly take offense when someone prioritizes things differently than they do.
We're not doing this to maximize value. We're doing this to have a good time.
Darn you, you said in far less words what I was trying to express. That should be the TLDR version. :-)
Darn you, you said in far less words what I was trying to express. That should be the TLDR version. :-)
Steal it! Unlike many here, I don't mind a competent homage of my work!
This is a hobby of tiny mechanical automatons that tell the time somewhat less accurately than the cheapest cellphone on the market.
It greatly amuses and depresses me that people take this hobby so seriously that they can earnestly take offense when someone prioritizes things differently than they do.
We're not doing this to maximize value. We're doing this to have a good time.
On that note.....I do like me a good time, which brings me to this recent acquisition......🤏🏻🫣🤐 TBH we take our collective selves too seriously, sometimes its just fun to have a bonkers mad watch cuz why not? 😂
@SpecKTator , racking up these angels wings dood..😉🤪
On that note.....I do like me a good time, which brings me to this recent acquisition......🤏🏻🫣🤐 TBH we take our collective selves too seriously, sometimes its just fun to have a bonkers mad watch cuz why not? 😂
@SpecKTator , racking up these angels wings dood..😉🤪
That is a literal skeleton watch. Kudos.
On that note.....I do like me a good time, which brings me to this recent acquisition......🤏🏻🫣🤐 TBH we take our collective selves too seriously, sometimes its just fun to have a bonkers mad watch cuz why not? 😂
@SpecKTator , racking up these angels wings dood..😉🤪
You’re starting to get on Santa’s naughty list 🤣
One rule of watch debate
One rule of watch debate
Dude, I'm starting to realize Starship Troopers usually always is pertinent to the convo, much like Warhammer40K 🤣.
Dude, I'm starting to realize Starship Troopers usually always is pertinent to the convo, much like Warhammer40K 🤣.
Incredibly well said!
I gotta get a SeaQ Panorama Date at some point. They're just so damn beautiful!
Incredibly well said!
I gotta get a SeaQ Panorama Date at some point. They're just so damn beautiful!
Yeah, I with you there. At first, was not attracted to the larger numbers, but it has really grown on me.
Great post my friend!
I sometimes feel I need to justify a watch to others here using this logic, usually unsuccessfully.
For example:
My Kurono - a steel Miyota 9 for ~ $4K (yes, weak Canadian dollars and massive import taxes) - crazy right!
But- I know its design is by a world renowned watchmaker and its dial is made by a professional artist. It took long hours and exotic materials to craft a hand made, hand polished dial, so final product is actually cheap.
I’d also mention that I place value in engineering and design genius.
Akahane and his engineering team at Seikosha invested over 22 years of money/effort/R&D/his life to create spring drive, and this adds value to those watches, for me anyway
My LX was my first spring drive and is was what drew me most to this dive watch
( Aside: I’d suggest when comparing GS to Chinese made GS clomages : Japan’s O’Henro is the trek to analogize with - a 1200 km walk for pilgrims on Shikoku-Shima to 88 temples. I recommend you do it someday! Like the Camino, pilgrims are well supported .. end aside) 😉
BTW I had a build slot for an Anordaine come up about a year ago, and I turned it down - d’oh! 🙄
I knew of Satory B but will look up some of those others you recommended.
Really nice post. I went looking at the Lundis Bleus and found some nice. I don't know why my brain scoffed at their asking price when, as you rightly point out, I feel like I would be ok with buying an Anordain at that amount.
I guess with lesser known brands I always feel like "am I the sucker?". With AnOrdain I feel like the brand is vetted and it costs what it costs... but with brands like Lundis Bleus, Tourby, Ming, and Edouard Koehn I feel like... am I paying for the name/hype or is it actually good?
My Kudoke 2 won awards and my Arnold & Son has had glowing reviews from some top watch experts, so I don't always stick to major brands if something nice pops up... but some brands just hit me weird I guess. Like Ming, is it good to am I a sucker for a YouTubers opinion? lol
I dunno... we do the best we can I guess
btw... my red kudoke. :)
I try not to delve into the meta of watch collecting too hard. To each their own, but I have no desire to impose structure on something as innately pointless as buying complicated bracelets. Watch collecting is a silly, lizard brained diversion and that’s what makes it such a joyous thing for me
I don’t think many, if they are being honest with themselves, look at their watch collection and think “that was the best possible use of all of that money”. We do it because we’re idiots, and I think that’s a more valid motive than any notion of value
Once I calculated that I would need to charge at least 80 € for a simple beanie hat if I wanted to make a living from sewing. A stupid hoody would land somewhere on the 400 € mark without being fancy nor original at all. It is, however, not my business, but just another hobby. If I wanted to make it a business, I would have to refine my craftsmanship to bring the right quality for the people who are capable and willing to pay the price. So on the one hand I understand steep prices for good craftsmanship.
On the other hand I see watches that are as expensive as BMWs, Porsches, Ferraris, Lamborghinis. As much as I love artisanship and understand the need of pricing, no way a tiny automat with unchanged mechanics for decades, that need no further development or research, not even heavy testing, equals a premium car. If people want to buy those items, it is their joy and their money. I don't mind or say anything against their decisions. They do their own joy and that's fine. Yet they don't pay for the craftsmanship and precious materials only, but the biggest chunk for dreams, tales, wishes, prestige, social positioning, ..., the software in their own minds. It has nothing to do with craftsmanship and the pricing is far from realistic, but that's fine as we all pay more on dreams and tales than on the time pieces, just on a floating pricetag.
I value this quality post! 🤙❤️
Thank you for the post. It's very informative. Here's my take. I bought the SeaQ for a reason. It has a beautiful dial, it's flawless craftsmanship and it not common. That's what drives me.
I like Rolex, I own Rolex and I believe they make a quality watch but here's my rub with them. Why would I buy a Sub that's massed produced. They probably make a 70,000-80,000 a year. That's 7 to 8 times more watches than GO make in total watches a year. There have been probably a million Subs sold compared to maybe 6,000 Seaqs. With all the craftsmanship and deteails that go into the SeaQ it's a no brainer to buy one over a Sub.
This is just one example how I perceive quality and value. We all have different interpretations of quality and value. None of us are wrong. Some of us will just argue a little harder to be right.
Well stated sir. I love both of those watches and one day will add a 39.5 SeaQ. It could live in harmony with my Sub. :-)
Really nice post. I went looking at the Lundis Bleus and found some nice. I don't know why my brain scoffed at their asking price when, as you rightly point out, I feel like I would be ok with buying an Anordain at that amount.
I guess with lesser known brands I always feel like "am I the sucker?". With AnOrdain I feel like the brand is vetted and it costs what it costs... but with brands like Lundis Bleus, Tourby, Ming, and Edouard Koehn I feel like... am I paying for the name/hype or is it actually good?
My Kudoke 2 won awards and my Arnold & Son has had glowing reviews from some top watch experts, so I don't always stick to major brands if something nice pops up... but some brands just hit me weird I guess. Like Ming, is it good to am I a sucker for a YouTubers opinion? lol
I dunno... we do the best we can I guess
btw... my red kudoke. :)
Your Kudoke is absolutely stunning. I hear you as far as the lesser known brands, but in the case of a brand like Ming and Lundis Bleus they are all run by very reliable movements, so I have reluctance taking a chance on those vs. a one off movement that is lesser known. There is also something nice about having a more boutique style watch. Again, that is the beauty of the hobby.
Well stated sir. I love both of those watches and one day will add a 39.5 SeaQ. It could live in harmony with my Sub. :-)
I struggled between the 39.5 and the 43. I bought the smaller because it will fit my kids better and my GO Senator is 44. So I'm happy with the 39.5. The only draw back is the metal caseback on the smaller one.
Now my SeaQ sits perfect between my Explorer ll and the Senator. 😂
The caseback makes me sad. Every GO should show off that movement.
Great writeup @AllTheWatches I have similar sentiments as you may have inferred from my own posts. It's posts like these that really make me wish I could talk to fellow crunchers in person all the time.
I too admire the SeaQ, it's definitely on my underrated value list. But you know I'm on the quest for that boring old Sub still 😂😭 a quest that is filled with many side-quests thus far haha. I have to unsubscribe to all my watch newsletters...
Great writeup @AllTheWatches I have similar sentiments as you may have inferred from my own posts. It's posts like these that really make me wish I could talk to fellow crunchers in person all the time.
I too admire the SeaQ, it's definitely on my underrated value list. But you know I'm on the quest for that boring old Sub still 😂😭 a quest that is filled with many side-quests thus far haha. I have to unsubscribe to all my watch newsletters...
Nice! One day sir, I shall buy you a beverage. Listen, I could have bought the SeaQ myself and have the ubiquitous Sub, so I get it.
Nice! One day sir, I shall buy you a beverage. Listen, I could have bought the SeaQ myself and have the ubiquitous Sub, so I get it.
I will gladly hold you to that drink 😉 Just need the new kiddo to pass her first year then I can travel some more!
Just a quick mention of the Black Birch and the Islander is a nice watch but it’s the equivalent of a KIA motor’s 4 Cylinder 2 litre compared to a V12 3.6 litre Cosworth from a McClaren . It boggles my mind how there could possibly be a legitimate comparison ? So yes people are strange how they think .
No doubt, that was why I compared it to a walk to a fridge vs 525 mile journey. Nothing wrong with either, but the work that goes into it cannot be compared. However, one simply looking for the look for not a lot of money, cool the Islander helps that case.
Absolutely spot-on CB!
Can't wait to see your Sartory Billard...that will be a spectactular watch!
The good news is that there are so many cool watches at every price point.
So we don't need to get into tribalism around brands or what is a good price point for a watch.
No matter what your economic situation, you can own a cool watch and enjoy our hobby.
Absolutely spot-on CB!
Can't wait to see your Sartory Billard...that will be a spectactular watch!
The good news is that there are so many cool watches at every price point.
So we don't need to get into tribalism around brands or what is a good price point for a watch.
No matter what your economic situation, you can own a cool watch and enjoy our hobby.
Thank you sir! So much originality at all price points.