Tornek Rayville TR-900 at Sotheby's in June
A Tornek Rayville is up for auction at Sotheby's in June. The interesting thing is that it was issued to a US Navy EOD in 1988. I would have thought that they would have been decommissioned by then. I don't think I have ever seen the caseback of a real one.
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Very nice piece ,be interesting to see how much it goes for
Very very cool! Maybe all of us on watch crunch can pool our money and snag it at auction! 😂
Very nice piece ,be interesting to see how much it goes for
The estimate is $80-100K. I could see it breaking that pretty easily.
Very very cool! Maybe all of us on watch crunch can pool our money and snag it at auction! 😂
10,000 of us could each put in $10. Each person could have a day with it every 27 years 😂😂
10,000 of us could each put in $10. Each person could have a day with it every 27 years 😂😂
I bagsy the day after auction.
The estimate is $80-100K. I could see it breaking that pretty easily.
Probably double
Probably double
It will be interesting to see for sure. At double you are getting into MilSub territory but by all estimates the Tornek Rayville is more rare. So who knows! It will be fun to watch.
I suspect that this might have been returned (possibly a few times) and then re-issued in 1982 rather than first issued in 1982. A lot of people actually returned their kit for re-use. It’s only relatively recently that people could easily walk away with lots of equipment. The Sotheby’s description is by way of known provenance but doesn’t preclude that it was first issued prior to 1982.
10,000 of us could each put in $10. Each person could have a day with it every 27 years 😂😂
Sounds like a deal to me
I bagsy the day after auction.
I call day after.
Saw this on another Facebook group. From what I could find, source for this owner is legit. As if Sotheby's would lie, but JIC anyone was wondering.
My guess is pretty high too, since from what I have researched these are definitely harder to find, moreso than even the milsubs.
And as others have pointed out sometimes you don't get to keep your issued stuff, sometimes back in the day you needed to hook up the supply NCO, etc.
I for one would love to know if this was NOS left on the shelf and forgotten about until someone in the know saw it, or was this actually issued under the OG Tornek-Rayville days kept serving?
Cuz that's a heckuva testament to tool watch.
Also due to the "radioactive" nature, might be why this was originally returned vs kept by end user.
I suspect that this might have been returned (possibly a few times) and then re-issued in 1982 rather than first issued in 1982. A lot of people actually returned their kit for re-use. It’s only relatively recently that people could easily walk away with lots of equipment. The Sotheby’s description is by way of known provenance but doesn’t preclude that it was first issued prior to 1982.
I agree but it is still a little surprising they were still kicking around by 1988 (when this particular diver got it). I think even the remaining MilSubs were replaced with CWCs by 1980. I'm guessing that the antimagnetic design kept it around (the antimagnetic properties were specified in the original UDT spec in the 60s).
Even today you can't walk away with specialized expensive kit. Quartermasters keep a pretty good hold on that stuff especially in the smaller more specialized units. Stuff always falls through the cracks though. Especially if it is greased with a boat load of beer. 😂
Also due to the "radioactive" nature, might be why this was originally returned vs kept by end user.
There might have been tighter controls in supply because of this fact as well.
Thanks for sharing, this one is phenomenal! Old mil-subs are what got my hooked on this hobby 15-20 years ago in the first place... the caseback engravings are wild!
Saw this on another Facebook group. From what I could find, source for this owner is legit. As if Sotheby's would lie, but JIC anyone was wondering.
My guess is pretty high too, since from what I have researched these are definitely harder to find, moreso than even the milsubs.
And as others have pointed out sometimes you don't get to keep your issued stuff, sometimes back in the day you needed to hook up the supply NCO, etc.
I for one would love to know if this was NOS left on the shelf and forgotten about until someone in the know saw it, or was this actually issued under the OG Tornek-Rayville days kept serving?
Cuz that's a heckuva testament to tool watch.
Based on the case marks it went through testing in both 82 and 87 before he was issued the watch in 88 so it was probably not sitting somewhere unused before he got it.
I suspect that this might have been returned (possibly a few times) and then re-issued in 1982 rather than first issued in 1982. A lot of people actually returned their kit for re-use. It’s only relatively recently that people could easily walk away with lots of equipment. The Sotheby’s description is by way of known provenance but doesn’t preclude that it was first issued prior to 1982.
You are probably correct. Does anyone know how long these were made and issued new? The auction page says it was "Made for the U.S. Navy, Circa 1966" so it could have been issued and re-issued or sat in storage.
Another interesting set of testing facts from the auction page is that the TR went through testing with a bunch of other watches (including the Rolex Sub) and like the Speedy with NASA, the TR was the only one that passed and still working at the end. Here is what Sotheby's says at least:
"Several watches were to be tested by the navy, each as hopeful to win the contract to supply the first UDT (underwater demolition team) divers. Namely the Enicar Sea Pearl, Rolex Submariner, and Blancpain Fifty Fathoms. The testing procedure was brutal. The watches would be dropped from great heights, frozen solid, exposed to high temperatures, and stomped into sandy beaches, to name a few. Not only was the Blancpain the only watch to meet all of the criteria set forth, of the three watches to be abused in The Navy’s tests, it was the only one still ticking when all was said and done."
Time to check out MKII's TR site again.
It will be interesting to see for sure. At double you are getting into MilSub territory but by all estimates the Tornek Rayville is more rare. So who knows! It will be fun to watch.
It's also the Provence with the watch
The case back makes the watch! 😎
Due to the colorful and exotic personalities of the UDT/EOD community, wish I'd been able to get the WMT Green Label homage. Seemed to also fit the bill as a spiritual homage if you will. 😉
You are probably correct. Does anyone know how long these were made and issued new? The auction page says it was "Made for the U.S. Navy, Circa 1966" so it could have been issued and re-issued or sat in storage.
Another interesting set of testing facts from the auction page is that the TR went through testing with a bunch of other watches (including the Rolex Sub) and like the Speedy with NASA, the TR was the only one that passed and still working at the end. Here is what Sotheby's says at least:
"Several watches were to be tested by the navy, each as hopeful to win the contract to supply the first UDT (underwater demolition team) divers. Namely the Enicar Sea Pearl, Rolex Submariner, and Blancpain Fifty Fathoms. The testing procedure was brutal. The watches would be dropped from great heights, frozen solid, exposed to high temperatures, and stomped into sandy beaches, to name a few. Not only was the Blancpain the only watch to meet all of the criteria set forth, of the three watches to be abused in The Navy’s tests, it was the only one still ticking when all was said and done."
Time to check out MKII's TR site again.
Another interesting part of that, was due to legal stuff (Berry Amendment 1941, et al) Blancpain skirted things by having a US dude import them and then put Tornek-Rayville on the dial. Interesting story about how the T-Rays came to be.
Of course completely different to what MACV-SOG did later. Once you get past certain levels, supply chain rules go out the window.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/vintage-tornek-rayville-diving-in-depth
I do recall when the Bulova Mil-Sub “reissue” came out a couple of years ago that there was commentary that, while the contract was considered prestigious, it was not hugely attractive commercially as watches for a small elite navy unit were not projected to be high volumes (v low thousands only). And the big manufacturers were all focusing on electronic/accutron/quartz at that time. So comparatively few of these would have been made and, given the environment they were used in, even fewer survive (in decent condition) … hence the $$$ estimate. The Blancpain US source subterfuge sounds like the best way the contract could have been filled given the high spec low volume conundrum.
Another interesting part of that, was due to legal stuff (Berry Amendment 1941, et al) Blancpain skirted things by having a US dude import them and then put Tornek-Rayville on the dial. Interesting story about how the T-Rays came to be.
Of course completely different to what MACV-SOG did later. Once you get past certain levels, supply chain rules go out the window.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/vintage-tornek-rayville-diving-in-depth
That is very true. The highly specialized groups act a lot on their own and have much more direct contact with suppliers cutting out the red tape that the rest of the services have to deal with. The idea is that their needs are more time sensitive and the gear much more specific in nature.
I do recall when the Bulova Mil-Sub “reissue” came out a couple of years ago that there was commentary that, while the contract was considered prestigious, it was not hugely attractive commercially as watches for a small elite navy unit were not projected to be high volumes (v low thousands only). And the big manufacturers were all focusing on electronic/accutron/quartz at that time. So comparatively few of these would have been made and, given the environment they were used in, even fewer survive (in decent condition) … hence the $$$ estimate. The Blancpain US source subterfuge sounds like the best way the contract could have been filled given the high spec low volume conundrum.
Most of the sources I can find estimate it somewhere in the 700-1000 range. I ran across another article that claimed that many were destroyed when they were determined to be unfit for service. There was no source for this statement listed however. It could be that they became classified being associated with the acoustic and magnetic testing they underwent as well. If all of this is true and add in attrition then there are probably only a handful of examples left.
I found another source that said in the early days the watch would be issued as kit for a specific dive and returned after completed. It was an instrument for diving not meant for daily use. This could possibly explain why some survived so long in service.
Bulova was already a major supplier for the Navy by the 60s having supplied Accutron timing for Project Vanguard which at the time would have also been highly classified. It would have been natural for the Navy to throw Bulova an RFP for a timepiece.
I doubt that anyone during that period would have shrugged off a government contract with the Navy even with the low numbers. It is more likely that most didn't even know about it.
Most of the sources I can find estimate it somewhere in the 700-1000 range. I ran across another article that claimed that many were destroyed when they were determined to be unfit for service. There was no source for this statement listed however. It could be that they became classified being associated with the acoustic and magnetic testing they underwent as well. If all of this is true and add in attrition then there are probably only a handful of examples left.
I found another source that said in the early days the watch would be issued as kit for a specific dive and returned after completed. It was an instrument for diving not meant for daily use. This could possibly explain why some survived so long in service.
Bulova was already a major supplier for the Navy by the 60s having supplied Accutron timing for Project Vanguard which at the time would have also been highly classified. It would have been natural for the Navy to throw Bulova an RFP for a timepiece.
I doubt that anyone during that period would have shrugged off a government contract with the Navy even with the low numbers. It is more likely that most didn't even know about it.
Some “sketchy” background on the Bulova one here …
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/bulova-mil-ships-w-2181
The explanation in the June 2 Hodinkee article on how he got the watch makes way more sense now. He pulled them out of a box of watches from supply and he grabbed the only two watches that were still working. They had probably been written off and he was just in the right place at the right time to snag it.
Final hammer $114,300.
Mike Nouveau on TikTok recently found one in a garage sale