The G100 is a Miyota 9 series

As I have gotten more into the watch world, the movement manufacturing question is something I have been learning more about. I start asking myself what I am truly paying for in terms of movement if it's not in-house. And then even if it is in-house...what is the value of that movement?

Sometimes I get really excited about a dial. However, I am getting more into microbrands for this reason where I am supporting smaller businesses who are doing wonderful things too. I am less impressed with larger brands now.

I’m glad you’re starting to see this - as a microbrand I sometimes feel I’m held to an entirely higher standard than many of the macro brands that employ lots of corner cutting that the majority of micros would be chewed out for.

The more you learn about the watch industry the more you discover things aren’t as the seen. It often doesn’t make it less impressive but reality can be so much different than what the marketing would imply

I am newer to #watchcrunch and am loving it. I picked up my #vaer because of interactions like this where I am speaking to the watchmaker directly. Thank you for the response. (Now I need to check out #orientwatches )

I will say that some of the microbrands I have dealt with aren't making quality pieces, but the few that I have felt and purchased have been outstanding. I also like unique pieces that start a conversation. I just read your background and your statement resonates with me: "...devoted myself to learning as much as I can while being part of a new generation of American watchmakers bringing back a seemingly clandestine art form."

I absolutely love supporting this. Thank you.

Also I haven't been on this app long enough to send messages (it was 10 days now it's 14). The Tesseract in Royal Purple is beautiful. I would buy it now but would want to see it in person first. I'll keep following your brand and your story.

It's my understanding a watch can be considered Swiss made if 60% of the manufacturing costs are in Sweden. How much work is required to call a movement Swiss I'm less sure of. What % of the movement needs to manufactured in Sweden or is it just the cost of assembly that account's for the 60%? "In house" movement means little to me as all it requires is the same multinational company to own both and doesn't suggest any input by the brand fitting a mass produced movement.

The G100 was made to be a drop in 2824 replacement. It's heavily derived from the 9015.

The Miyota 9000 series gets unfairly maligned in my opinion; probably because of its association with the 8000 series, which is a donkey of a movement.

I think I’d take a 9000 series over a SW200. I’ve never been that impressed with any of the Sellitas I’ve encountered.

In-house is such a buzzword in our community. In my opinion people put WAYYY to much importance on in-house. Very few movements are legitimately done start to finish in-house. Shoot, even Omegas coaxial movement in the new Speedy is still the same base movement that they’ve used for years and is in fact a Lemania 1873. Yes, Omega modifies it heavily, but their so called “in-house” movement is just a modified Lemania.

Exactly. If Breguet fits an ETA movement and calls it "in house" should we be impressed?

No, not at all. But sure enough, they just label it “in-house” and call it something else, people will eat it up.

I think the 9000 series movements are great and also preferred over the 2824 or SW200s. The 2824 architecture is old and flawed, not to mention its thick. The SW300 and 2892 are, however, a different tier. I can see how the improvements made to the 9000 series that appear in the G100 make it superior to the SW200, but it’s close to the SW300 and idk how I feel about that

I can’t speak for the rest of t world, but I thought this was widely known. I mean, I knew about it so it couldn’t have been a well kept secret.

Pretty obvious imo, but the regards for the LJP versus the Miyota seem pretty different

I'll take the G100 or 9000 over any 2824.

The G100 is also generally not sold in watches at similar price points to the 2892, for example my Zelos has a G100, often G100 powered watches are regularly under 1000 £/€/$

That’s why we take the time to form our own opinions and try not to fall victim to watch groupthink.

Now excuse me while I take off my 300 meter dive watch and put on a 500 meter dive watch. I am about to go into my kitchen and I will briefly be near water.

I'm genuinely curious to hear more about the "seriously flawed" 2824 architecture. Sure it's old, but it is still THE BEST entry-mid level automatic movement IMO. Its stability in timekeeping accuracy is unmatched by any Seiko movement in this price point (mostly garbage in this regard) or Citizen 9000 series. The 9000 series is close in terms of timekeeping quality, but harder to regulate due to the lack of a fine regulator (I believe is only available in their higher end 9000 series in the series 8 watchs). It is also thinner than the 2824 (closer to the 2892), which is nice, but the uni-directional rotor and the rotor noise is the main reason for me to pick the 2824 over it.

The ETA 2824 is a 40 plus year old design. Their clones are based on a 40 plus year old design. The new ETA brand specific movements with 80 hours of power reserve is a 2824 slowed down to 3hz, how innovative.

The Japanese companies are the only ones bringing out new movements. I will take Japanese designed movement over any of the current movements being sold by Swiss companies, except LJP and Soprod.

The Japanese designed movements that I'm currently looking at are the Miyota 9 series, the LJP G100, the Soprod M100 and the WWC 2130; which is based on the Soprod M100. And since they doesn't sell their movements to any other companies I'll have to buy a watch from them.

I'm also looking for watches made with the Americhron movement. It's a US designed and assembled movement made with domestic and imported parts, you know kinda like Swiss movements. 😉

I honestly think the G100 is a genius marketing move by Citizen.

I don't know the details in terms of the material of its key components (i.e. does it have balance assembly and mainspring made from Swiss material or Japanese material), but I agree with the general consensus that the G100 is pretty much a 9015 architecture with 2824 dimensions. Anyhow, I'm not too fussed about the technical side of things as the 9000 series is a pretty solid foundation + we have already seen premium versions of that movement in higher end Citizen watches (0950 with anti-magnetic timekeeping organs + fine regulator). I do however applaud Citizen for choosing to make the movement with LJP in Switzerland. Even if Citizen decides to sell the 0950 movement commercially under Miyota, they won't be able to charge nearly as much, nor will it have that "Swiss made" aura associated with it.

All in all, I think Citizen made a brilliant business move producing a premium version of the 9000 movement in Switzerland with LJP rather than trying to sell it under Miyota.

My Spinnaker Spence has the 9039 in it and it’s pretty awesome. Not sure why there needs to be a more expensive version of an already good movement

We have a few things to break apart here:

• It appears unmatched by Seiko because Seiko doesn’t really have a competitor, they are all lower price point movements. Presuming you mean the NH/4R series. Which generally don’t have as good oscillators but have more robust winding designs. High grade seiko can easily compete with low grade 2824 in timekeeping.

• The point of “fine regulator” is entirely moot. Watchmakers are trained, in many cases and specifically in the case of ETA to not touch this - for aesthetic reasons. The presence or absence of a fine regulator should not hinder your ability to regulate a watch and doesn’t mean the 2824 is superior because it has one. Miyota 9s run pretty well and their timekeeping is pretty comparable to the 2824 (unless it has a chronometer balance). I will concede that the shock protection and oscillator is probably a bit higher grade on the 2824 but in regards to winding design, automatic design, and thickness the 2824 loses handily. With the former 2 being very consistent points of failure. Taking that into account, the 9 series, imo, is a better movement. Even if the oscillator isn’t as good but these are things that the G100 improves upon (and more).

• The 2824 has a brutal winding mechanism. The gearing between ratchet wheel, not to mention the steel to brass, is such a harsh difference that this fails frequently. The way the automatic system was designed (an after the fact addition of a module style) doesn’t integrate well. Gear train ratios result in large amounts of energy being sent into the automatic system, without decoupling during winding this means that the reversers are exposed to tons of wear and tear each time you wind it. Ever experience a helicoptering rotor? That’s from worn out reversers.

The 2824 has existed for decades, with glaring engineering flaws, solely to be the “lowest hanging Swiss made fruit” and that niche it has served well. Can you achieve excellent timing with the addition of chronometer grade balances? Absolutely. Does it have a nice reliable escapement? Yep. The rest of it, however, is primed for failure which is inherent in its design. Which is why I will not use it. The SW300/2892 remedies many of these issues and the result is a much finer and more contemporary movement. To me, the 2892/SW300 deserves the fame and reputation the 2824 has - but the 2824 got there by being cheap, and the 2892 is virtually twice the cost. With the miyota 9s being on par more or less with it, the G100 appears superior. This is, for me, why the 2824 is not the best affordable movement but exists as a means for brands to achieve “Swiss Made” nomenclature on a budget. This is why it’s so famous, because so many brands from Tudor to many micros are dependent on the good reception of it. Its had its time in the spotlight and now there are much, much better options.

You literally said it yourself that Seiko does not have a worthy competitor. The 6R is an embarrassment for the price Seiko is charging these days, and the 6L/8L equipped models are faaaar beyond the price point where 2824 watches typically sit.

I am well aware of the manual winding issues in the 2824 design and the brass gears being prone to failure, which is why I avoid using it as much as possible lol. Also if you want to go that way, the famed "workhorse" by Seiko also suffers from wear in the magic lever system.

I have never denied that the 2824 has been the cheapest way for brands to put "Swiss-made" on their dials, but it still doesn't take away from it being an excellent design that stood the test of time.

Yes I know the fine regulator is not a must for professional watchmakers, but for a hobbist such as myself having one makes regulating them that much easier.

Maybe the levels of importance we place on different areas of a movement is different, but I value watches as timekeeping devices so the ability of one to keep time accurately and consistently is important to me.

You already listed all the benefits of the 2824 in that regard. It has a reliable escapement assembly with a giant balance wheel. It has different tiers of materials available, which I think is also good for brands building up different tiers in their offerings.

The thing is, it’s not an excellent design by any metric, especially comparatively today. You’re free to like it for whatever reasons but on the technical and objective side it would be “adequate” not excellent.

I'm inclined to belive that is true. But would you mind to elaborate on the metrics you used to define an excellent design on the technical and objective side?

@orionwatches What a great discussion! I see the points from both of you, I'd like to offer ask a few questions to add to the debate:

• For me, shock resistance is a big deal, since accidents happen. I've once hit my head in frustration and my Miyota 90s5 went from +5 s/d to +12 s/d. Precision remained at +/- 3 seconds. How much can ETA/Sellita take?

• I have no illusions about my Seiko 6R, I know it's not as precise as Miyota 90, in addition to being thick, but will it last? What is the magic lever point of failure?

• How much do these things matter, when we're dealing with basically obsolete technology? Is perfection more important than backwards compatibility and parts availability? Is a theoretical "perfect affordable movement" which is durable and precise, easy to maintain and reasonably thin, possible?

I did above, I don’t think we get to excellence with automatic and winding systems so prone to failure. Those are huge components of a movement and fatal flaws in regards to timekeeping.

It’s hard to say in regards to shock and what you experienced. When impacting your watch it’s basically luck of the draw on how it lands and how much energy is absorbed. Incabloc and kif systems are easier to service and maintain. I don’t know exact shock absorbency metrics but I’d bet they are negligible and close, it’s really protection for obliterating the balance staff - not protection against shifting the regulator or anything else that might happen.

I’m assuming the magic lever failure is the propensity for the pawl arms to cut a smooth groove into the ratcheting wheel, at least that’s what I’ve witnessed.

I think these things do matter, maybe not as much as people make it out sometimes, but a watch should keep imperceptibly good time each day. I’m a watchmaker, brand owner and have been surrounded by watches for years and I can only humanly detect when a watch is off when it’s more than 20 seconds. Otherwise I need my tools/timegrapher. It’s also a luxury industry, so price isn’t always a reflection of manufacturing cost but in certain watches and price points it’s disingenuous to charge so much without the best, or at least commensurate for the price, components and timekeeping capabilities.

There is no such thing as perfect, there are trade offs and things that are perfect under certain conditions. The fact that Seiko can make and sell mech movements for bulk prices of $15/unit is wild and their price segment lets lots of people enjoy mechanical watches - or when I was starting my company with only a couple thousand dollars to my name, it helped me to be able to afford production. Their timekeeping is variable and they aren’t the “best” movement but they certainly are the best mechanical movement for that price segment. As you move up, things get more competitive.

The watch industry has an awful lot of smoke and mirrors going on, a lot of stuff only exists in an oral space - where written or hard copies are so sparse and closely guarded that provable truth of certain things would be close to impossible to prove. I think at the end of the day it’s what makes you feel good and happy - that should be why we all do this, because it’s enriching.

Personally, I have some sort of truth and justice fetish so finding reductive truths where I go is important to me. It’s also part of watchmaking, to be able to develop a skill through repetition and repeatable technique. When you handle hundreds or thousands of movements you start to see how and where they fail, how frequently they fail, and all sorts of things. We do see big brands phasing out movements with the 2824 architecture and it’s for good reasons. That movement was the staple for a lot of brands and at one of the largest mechanical price segments. Was it the best movement for that time? Price point? Demographic? I can’t say for sure but there was definitely a time when the 2824 was ubiquitous with “Swiss mechanical watch” and I think that time is coming to an end.

What was that, I can't hear the discussion over the INSANELY loud rotor on this Miyota. I also have an Aquastar with the G100 in it as well and that thing LOUD

Thanks! I thought the lever-regulated movements are accuracy-wise more sensitive to shock than those with a screw... I've heard that a free-sprung balance is the best, but also hardest to regulate. Also, besides Powermatics, beyond my means..

I have been calling it Swiss Miyota since it came out. On one hand, it’s a brilliantly finished Miyota 9k, on the other hand, it still wobbles 🤷

I have a 9015 in my Spinnaker and it's fantastic. Super smooth to wind and one of my most accurate movements.