Holy Trinity or Holy Prohibitory?
The first time I laid eyes on an AP Royal Oak, it was an almost near-orgasm experience. (Feel free to judge me 😜) Over the years, it has always been a grail watch on my list..The "WHEN I MADE IT" kind of watch.
Over the years, as I dive deeper and deeper into this rabbit hole of horology, I learnt that AP & PP will blacklist you in the event you sell a watch that you purchased. (Unsure of VC, so if anyone has any idea/experience with the brand, feel free to share! 😊)
From a collector/enthusiast point of view, I do understand the logic behind why the brands do what they do. However, a part of me still could not comprehend fully as to why as a buyer we need to adhere with such “nonsensical” policies set?
Do hear me out on some of the reasons I can think of as to why it’s nonsensical in my opinion:
1. Taste changes as we age – This is not uncommon as we age, our taste in different things (including horology pieces) changes too. I used to love “blingy” watches but now I tend to lean towards more “subtle/low-key” designs.
2. So many choices, yet so limited funds – There are so many watches in this world that we would like to have on our wrists! (Saddest thing is we only have 2 wrists of course) Jokes aside, but in this hobby, sometimes it’s about exploring as many pieces as possible and have a “taste” on how it feels to be wearing a particular brand/watch.
3. Bigger Things/Events in life – It’s inevitable to face different obstacles or huge events in life! What if my hamster fell into the pond and I need to send it to an anima ICU which could cost me thousands of dollars?! I’m not going to live with myself knowing I can sell the watch to fund for its life! (Jokes aside, you know what I mean 😉)
4. It’s MY HARD EARN MONEY – Last but not least, each and (probably not everyone) everyone shed blood, sweat and tears to earn their money. From this perspective, why should I have to “justify/answer” the sale of something which I purchased? Regardless of whether it’s easy or hard money, what give these brands the rights or even the position to “blacklist” or question why we sell a product we purchase from them?
These are some reasons as to why I continuously ask myself if I should even get an AP Royal Oak from an AD if I made it. It’s the exact same thoughts which explains why I do not purchase my Rolex Exp2 from an AD too. I love the designs, the aesthetics, the brand/image and just the way how different watches makes me feel. But I rather pay a little more premium in grey market than play this game.
Just my personal thoughts but I feel in no way should a specific brand/company has control over how I should be spending my hard earn cash. I rather pay a premium in grey market to receive tip top service than having to spend thousands or more dollars on pieces that I have no interest in. (Of course, maybe not applicable to all ADs’)
What about you guys? What are your thoughts on these? 😊
Image credit: https://www.swisswatchexpo.com/TheWatchClub/2022/12/14/who-are-the-holy-trinity-of-watches/
A good watch tells time, while an awesome watch tells a story. Watch enthusiast > Brand enthusiast. Down the rabbit hole of horology collection.
Most ADs (not brands), Rolex included, do not care if you sell the watch after a set amount of time, usually a year or two. They recognize all of the above. It is when your serial appears online days/weeks/months later. Your mileage may vary depending on the AD.
Great post
I can agree with you
If all customers are watch enthusiasts like you and me who buy watches to wear and enjoy, these policies won’t be necessary; unfortunately we live in a world of flippers and profiteers.
I agree. There’s no reason an AD or Brand to treat their customer poorly. I to would refuse to buy unwanted watches or jewelry for the opportunity to maybe buy a watch of my choice.
In my eyes there is a place for buying gray market or buying used watches.
However here is where are opinions differs. I choose not to pay over retail. That means I won’t buy a “Grail” if it’s over retail from an AD (buying other watches to buy the one you want is buy over retail) or from the Gray market guy who charges a premium or up charge for the “grail”.
So where does that leave me. It means I wait for an opportunity to grab the Grail at retail or I buy watches the stops the itch. There are plenty of watches that will fit my need without any buying hassles.
My hard earned money doesn’t have conditions. I control how I spent my money. Not the AD or Brand telling me how to spend my money on them.
More like HOLY $H!T
I've never heard of this. I'm somewhat conflicted about it, whereas it's your money it's also something Rolex should have in place. I'd love to know how they know, I can only assume it's once the new owner takes it in for a service or check on legitimacy.
Firstly, I definitely lost enthusiasm for a Royal Oak or any AP watch, watch from any brand during a somber consultation with the soft spoken gent all dressed in black discussing the interment arrangements for my dad a million years already in the past. He was dressed in a bespoke Brioni suit hand tailored in Italy, black lace up brogues with shoelaces that cost more than my runners a gold skeleton Royal Oak perpetual calendar watch on his wrist that he dismissed as the single vanity item that a man in his profession might be allowed. It was not my first sighting of a AP Royal Oak, I say that with total humility.
If AP or PP or more ridiculously Rolex wishes to black list me for selling a procuct that underperforms and disappoints after I err in buying one in the first instance, it is their loss, I would be totally ok with that. AP was on life support before the Off Shore and social media. I will admit that when I first noticed a Royal Oak on the wrist of a Swiss gent at a casual party in 1986 was not all that smittened.
Look at all the APROs for sale on the grey market. Those big grey market sellers are not black listed. They have continual access and just keeps selling. It’s only the casual buyer or enthusiast who is subject to any random rules the dealer or brand enforce.
Most ADs (not brands), Rolex included, do not care if you sell the watch after a set amount of time, usually a year or two. They recognize all of the above. It is when your serial appears online days/weeks/months later. Your mileage may vary depending on the AD.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing! Just that I feel it doesn't really matter since ultimately we paid for the watches. So even if we were to walk out of AD today, we should have the freedom and rights to sell off whatever we bought as and when we would like.
If all customers are watch enthusiasts like you and me who buy watches to wear and enjoy, these policies won’t be necessary; unfortunately we live in a world of flippers and profiteers.
True but the point is different people are at different position in their lives. If today an urgent matter requires me to sell off my pieces, and the market value of your time piece punches way above the retail price, it only make sense to sell the piece at the market value. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy nor simply looking to flip, it just happen that I need the cash and the piece fetches way higher than what I paid for which is a win win?
I agree. There’s no reason an AD or Brand to treat their customer poorly. I to would refuse to buy unwanted watches or jewelry for the opportunity to maybe buy a watch of my choice.
In my eyes there is a place for buying gray market or buying used watches.
However here is where are opinions differs. I choose not to pay over retail. That means I won’t buy a “Grail” if it’s over retail from an AD (buying other watches to buy the one you want is buy over retail) or from the Gray market guy who charges a premium or up charge for the “grail”.
So where does that leave me. It means I wait for an opportunity to grab the Grail at retail or I buy watches the stops the itch. There are plenty of watches that will fit my need without any buying hassles.
My hard earned money doesn’t have conditions. I control how I spent my money. Not the AD or Brand telling me how to spend my money on them.
Well said sir! The only reason I chose gray over AD is cause I respect their hustle and that's why I can comprehend if they charges a premium.
But then again, it might not be that all ADs require us to spend before buying our grail piece. At least that's what I hope. 🙏
I've never heard of this. I'm somewhat conflicted about it, whereas it's your money it's also something Rolex should have in place. I'd love to know how they know, I can only assume it's once the new owner takes it in for a service or check on legitimacy.
Correct. My understanding is every watch has a serial no which is tag to your details. So if you sold your piece which you purchased from an AD, and the new owner bring it for servicing, then from their system they are able to identify it's a different detail oppose to the initial details. 😎
That being said, anyone reading this can feel free to chip in. Do not have 1st hand experience as I bought my Rolex from gray and still yet to "make it" to afford an AP. 😂
Interesting. Thanks for sharing! Just that I feel it doesn't really matter since ultimately we paid for the watches. So even if we were to walk out of AD today, we should have the freedom and rights to sell off whatever we bought as and when we would like.
Oh, you have the freedom to sell it right away. They also have the freedom to blacklist you. They do not want flippers buying their watches and this is how they limit it. They do not know, or care, if you had an emergency. It is not their place to research the why.
Want to make a quick buck? Go ahead, but one also cannot be upset when the dealer finds out and prevents them from buying more. Same happens in just about every high-end allocation item. Be grateful in watches the black list is limited to a single AD. Do that at an art house? You will never get art from any other dealer. Ferrari? Ditto, you will never get another one. Them the rules.
Firstly, I definitely lost enthusiasm for a Royal Oak or any AP watch, watch from any brand during a somber consultation with the soft spoken gent all dressed in black discussing the interment arrangements for my dad a million years already in the past. He was dressed in a bespoke Brioni suit hand tailored in Italy, black lace up brogues with shoelaces that cost more than my runners a gold skeleton Royal Oak perpetual calendar watch on his wrist that he dismissed as the single vanity item that a man in his profession might be allowed. It was not my first sighting of a AP Royal Oak, I say that with total humility.
If AP or PP or more ridiculously Rolex wishes to black list me for selling a procuct that underperforms and disappoints after I err in buying one in the first instance, it is their loss, I would be totally ok with that. AP was on life support before the Off Shore and social media. I will admit that when I first noticed a Royal Oak on the wrist of a Swiss gent at a casual party in 1986 was not all that smittened.
Thanks a lot for sharing! Great story and perspective. Totally agree that maybe the big brands might want to take a step back and identify if there's a better way to go about keeping enthusiasts in the hobby while not "limiting" a person's decision. If not, micro brands and Casio FTW! 😀
Look at all the APROs for sale on the grey market. Those big grey market sellers are not black listed. They have continual access and just keeps selling. It’s only the casual buyer or enthusiast who is subject to any random rules the dealer or brand enforce.
It also probably mean that there are many people (enthusiasts or not) that are selling the APROs. In a way, I guess they can't blacklist these sellers as they are running a legitimate business with watches being the commodity, and they are simply acting as a "broker" to buy and sell off the pieces. In a way, no major direct connections to the brands?
Oh, you have the freedom to sell it right away. They also have the freedom to blacklist you. They do not want flippers buying their watches and this is how they limit it. They do not know, or care, if you had an emergency. It is not their place to research the why.
Want to make a quick buck? Go ahead, but one also cannot be upset when the dealer finds out and prevents them from buying more. Same happens in just about every high-end allocation item. Be grateful in watches the black list is limited to a single AD. Do that at an art house? You will never get art from any other dealer. Ferrari? Ditto, you will never get another one. Them the rules.
Hmm I guess you have a point too. If we look from another angle, then they definitely are able to black list you as it's their own business rights and beliefs. Then again, just feel it loses more and more of that "human touch" whereby businesses really try to understand their customers and build a relationship instead of "I could care less why you did what you did".
Then again, the brands are big, their demand are strong, and realistically speaking, it will take up huge amount of resources just to reach out to each and every client and understand the "why".
Cool, I suppose it's a situation where we can't say if it's wrong or right. More to what you can and cannot accept from your perspective & preference. That being said, thanks for sharing! Enjoy the discussion and great insights! ❤
I've never heard of this. I'm somewhat conflicted about it, whereas it's your money it's also something Rolex should have in place. I'd love to know how they know, I can only assume it's once the new owner takes it in for a service or check on legitimacy.
Yep, when a new owner tries to claim ownership for warranty or servicing.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing! Just that I feel it doesn't really matter since ultimately we paid for the watches. So even if we were to walk out of AD today, we should have the freedom and rights to sell off whatever we bought as and when we would like.
Yes that's true, but you assume buyers are entitled watches, while there are too many that immediately flip watches and do nothing to add value to the world besides take a real buyer's allocation and take a cut. If there was a real access/distribution issue, then a middle man helps. However in today's world there are thousands of Rolex and holy Trinity dealers.
Yes that's true, but you assume buyers are entitled watches, while there are too many that immediately flip watches and do nothing to add value to the world besides take a real buyer's allocation and take a cut. If there was a real access/distribution issue, then a middle man helps. However in today's world there are thousands of Rolex and holy Trinity dealers.
That's very true too. I guess this is what happen when demand outweighs the supply and everyone eventually wants a piece of the pie. I can't say it's wrong, just that it might eventually kill off the hobby for some.
That being said, am seriously enjoying all the great sharing and insights from everyone. Learning more and more as all of us discuss on what are some of the "crazy" and "not-so-crazy" events in this hobby. 😂
Hmm I guess you have a point too. If we look from another angle, then they definitely are able to black list you as it's their own business rights and beliefs. Then again, just feel it loses more and more of that "human touch" whereby businesses really try to understand their customers and build a relationship instead of "I could care less why you did what you did".
Then again, the brands are big, their demand are strong, and realistically speaking, it will take up huge amount of resources just to reach out to each and every client and understand the "why".
Cool, I suppose it's a situation where we can't say if it's wrong or right. More to what you can and cannot accept from your perspective & preference. That being said, thanks for sharing! Enjoy the discussion and great insights! ❤
AP definitely scopes you out as a client. For all Trinity brands and for their very limited pieces, they will screen you out whether you know or not. There is definitely a human element where it's realistically possible.
Thanks a lot for sharing! Great story and perspective. Totally agree that maybe the big brands might want to take a step back and identify if there's a better way to go about keeping enthusiasts in the hobby while not "limiting" a person's decision. If not, micro brands and Casio FTW! 😀
Hi alexang, I am sure that you have heard about the buyers that Rolex sometimes hire to trap persons who immediately flip Daytonas to grey market agents. I have been collecting watches since my late teens, I will be 72 in July, cannot understand the reverence demand for certain very ordinary mass produced products by today’s marketplace.
True but the point is different people are at different position in their lives. If today an urgent matter requires me to sell off my pieces, and the market value of your time piece punches way above the retail price, it only make sense to sell the piece at the market value. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy nor simply looking to flip, it just happen that I need the cash and the piece fetches way higher than what I paid for which is a win win?
I don’t disagree with you, and the policies we see today is the corresponding response from the watch companies to maintain their brands.
I would say the reason they have a problem with it is because they want their retail pricing to control what the thing goes for (new/unworn with full warranty). If there is a huge secondary market for brand new boxed and sealed watches then this ceases to be the case. Hence Rolex getting into the game, that way they can put a cap on prices of discontinued models.
I doubt VC cares though because their retail prices dominate the pricing. For what it's worth, the other day I bought a PRX in a store that also sells Vacheron Constantin, A Lange & Söhne, etc. I only bought that watch from them ever so I was not a great client or anything of the sort.
I noticed Lange 1 seemed very expensive so I asked if they raised prices like crazy. Apparently they did. Anyway that is how we got into talking about expensive watches (while someone else was trying to find a box and warranty card for the Tissot) and, them being a big VC distributor, he said other than blue dials I could actually "order" an Overseas from them. I'd have to wait until one comes but apparently those can be had (and the grey prices back that up). They operate a boutique as well which gets all the good stuff (about two examples of 222 per year according to the man).
I think unless there is profit to be made by flipping, even the other two brands in question won't mind if you sell it the next day. They probably won't even monitor these watches because it takes a lot of effort and there is no real reason someone would buy a time only Calatrava or a Code 11.59 and flip it. That would not be clever 😀