Radium and Vintage Watches
We were watching a video the other night and it talked about the Radium poisoning from the workers ingestimg radium as they painted the dials. With hubby doing repair it's concerning.
How freaked out should we be if the Geiger is picking up watches that exceed 2000 CPM? I have started sorting the offenders into a separate pile in case we need to send them into space!
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Helen
Always loved watches. Married a guy who also loves watches and does repair work... so I get to see and wear alot of great stuff. He buys things and somehow they never get sold....
Member since
Last active: 24 min ago
6.25” / 15.88 cm
They did not follow the 3rd law of plumbing..don't lick your fingers.
I don’t think that you’re being too nervous at all. It’s unwise to hang around radium if you’re getting that kind of reading on a Geiger counter.
It isn’t funny at all. That’s my two cents worth.
Could the Geiger counter itself be contaminated 😂
Could the Geiger counter itself be contaminated 😂
New out of the box. If I put it on a modern watch... nothing. But an old military or 40, 50's era watch and it goes right up. One of the watches ran up to nearly 11,000 cpm and over 99 on the uSv/h. Not all old watches but a bunch have hit.
New out of the box. If I put it on a modern watch... nothing. But an old military or 40, 50's era watch and it goes right up. One of the watches ran up to nearly 11,000 cpm and over 99 on the uSv/h. Not all old watches but a bunch have hit.
Check out this beautiful Hallmark....
You should be quite concerned, actually, and research and take proper safety precautions.
It's important to note that the Radium lume is diminished because the alpha radiation from the Radium has damaged the crystal structure of the Zinc Phosphate so it no longer glows (it used to glow by exciting that compound, but over time it destroys it). The Radium itself is practically just as radioactive as the day it was applied.
The crumbling paint dust is still laden with Radium and inhaling it is the highest danger.
.34 uSv/h is the medium warning, 6.5 is "leave the area". This watch is 10 times that amount. Scary!
Hi Helen, good to be taking a safety first stance, but I have some advice. I've been working with ionising radiation in one form or another for a long time.
First of all that card is a reference for monitoring background radiation, rather than for a point source, so warnings designed for whole atmosphere generating that level! If they weren't sufficiently radioactive you'd get no glow.
Second, as an alpha emitter Radium is very safe to handle if done with care. Alpha particles can't penetrate through very thin paper, even the upper (dead) layer of your skin is a complete barrier. This is also why it's safe to wear on your wrist, the crystal and case provide 100 percent blockage.
The only risk is ingestion, as happened to the Radium girls. Treat it like you'd treat rat poison. Wear single use gloves, safety glasses, single use mask and an apron. Never take these into areas you prepare food, and wash your hands at length after working with it. When you do work on them make sure to collect up any fragments or dirt that comes off the dial, rodico to get loose bits on the watch and silly putty for your bench. Dispose of these after each use/day to prevent too much build up.
So with some simple precautions you'll be fine.
You should be quite concerned, actually, and research and take proper safety precautions.
It's important to note that the Radium lume is diminished because the alpha radiation from the Radium has damaged the crystal structure of the Zinc Phosphate so it no longer glows (it used to glow by exciting that compound, but over time it destroys it). The Radium itself is practically just as radioactive as the day it was applied.
The crumbling paint dust is still laden with Radium and inhaling it is the highest danger.
Absolutely! Radium had a half life (time taken to decay to half the radioactive emission) of 1600 years.. so any Raidum coated watch is still emitting at almost as much as the day it was painted. But the paint damaged by the radiation will be very friable.
Absolutely! Radium had a half life (time taken to decay to half the radioactive emission) of 1600 years.. so any Raidum coated watch is still emitting at almost as much as the day it was painted. But the paint damaged by the radiation will be very friable.
True, assuming Radium-226 was used mostly for the paint, but I think that's what they used back in the 50/60's? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
They were pointing the brushes with their lips that’s what happened one of the radium girls didn’t do that and she lived to a ripe old age that’s what contaminated them.
True, assuming Radium-226 was used mostly for the paint, but I think that's what they used back in the 50/60's? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
226 is the only long term stable isotope, with others decaying in a couple of years, days, minutes or even seconds. However I can't speak for the purity of the source material, I'm sure they'll be some other junk in there well. The final stable decay product is lead, also not much fun.
Radium isn't dangerous if it's still attached to the watch. It's alpha particles are slow and won't get into your body through the skin. It is dangerous if ingested or inhaled. Wear gloves if handling the dial, definitely keep it out of your mouth. Nobody was harmed by wearing the watches, it was the people painting the dials day after day that had an issue
They did not follow the 3rd law of plumbing..don't lick your fingers.
Damn that’s funny as…..
You need a lead container for these watches , seriously 😧
Main risk when working on them is ingestion or inhalation of radium dust. So good personal protective equipment is a must - gloves, mask etc. Also a fume hood to prevent any particles getting airborne in the workspace and being inhaled once you've finished working on the watch and taken your mask off.
The other risk is radon gas build up over time. A partial mitigation is storing watches in a well ventilated place so the radon is continually dispersed.
You need a lead container for these watches , seriously 😧
I'd not recommend that as radon gas will build up in the lead container. Better to store it in a well ventilated place to disperse the radon and to never open the watch to avoid any radium particles getting airborne.
226 is the only long term stable isotope, with others decaying in a couple of years, days, minutes or even seconds. However I can't speak for the purity of the source material, I'm sure they'll be some other junk in there well. The final stable decay product is lead, also not much fun.
True, 228 and 224 have half-lives of 5.75 years and 3.64 days, respectively. Too short to feasibly use in lume paint. Maybe 224, as I'm not sure how long the lume would last once applied. That's more often associated with the breakdown of other components of the material versus the decay of Radium.
The only consolation is if radium-226 is the isotope used, the amount of radiogenic lead would be negligible.
Physics aside (I have loved this discussion, by the way!), these vintage watches need a certain level of caution when handling, for sure. Especially cleaning that off vintage dials both safely, and effectively without damaging the dial.
Main risk when working on them is ingestion or inhalation of radium dust. So good personal protective equipment is a must - gloves, mask etc. Also a fume hood to prevent any particles getting airborne in the workspace and being inhaled once you've finished working on the watch and taken your mask off.
The other risk is radon gas build up over time. A partial mitigation is storing watches in a well ventilated place so the radon is continually dispersed.
That's my concern. Hubby does watch repair as a hobby, self taught over the past 15 years. We have literally 100's of vintage watches and parts of all ages in boxes in his repair area. The box of new old stock hands rang off the charts. So my main thought is how we improve his area to keep him safe without throwing out all his treasures. We are sorting and separating the offending items and will then get a strategy on safely removing hands. That seems to be the biggest issue although some dials are ringing high.
Have him wear a respirator when working around the dial and hands on the “hotter” watches. My understanding is that it’s very bad to breathe in particles of the lume. Google this to be sure, but I’d say it doesn’t hurt to use an abundance of caution. Maybe even wear rubber gloves when handling it. I bought a nuclear radiation detector myself not long ago because I have some vintage watches I got on eBay that I plan to attempt to work on some day. So far none of them have been hot. 😜
That's my concern. Hubby does watch repair as a hobby, self taught over the past 15 years. We have literally 100's of vintage watches and parts of all ages in boxes in his repair area. The box of new old stock hands rang off the charts. So my main thought is how we improve his area to keep him safe without throwing out all his treasures. We are sorting and separating the offending items and will then get a strategy on safely removing hands. That seems to be the biggest issue although some dials are ringing high.
Very wise to address the problem. It sounds likely that there will already be radium dust in his workspace. Once all the radioactive parts have been stored in containers I'd suggest completely decontaminating the workspace and its contents as there is likely to be radium dust present which will get airborne again and be inhaled in due course. Here's some further info
This article is about how UK museums with radioactive watches and compasses handle their storage, display and conservation. To give you an idea of how seriously they take the risk, here's the procedure they follow to consolidate crumbling radium on a 1950s compass using archival adhesive:
The work-room was made a controlled area during treatment to prevent accidental or unnecessary radiation exposures. The workbench was covered with a generous sheet of heavy-duty polyethylene taped down at the sides and completely covering the front edge of the bench. This liner contained all tools, equipment and waste during treatment, as well as the artefact itself, to prevent contamination of the workbench.
All tools and solutions were prepared and laid out before the compass was brought into the workspace to keep exposure as short as possible.
Tools and containers were disposable as it was assumed all would be contaminated by radium during treatment. Tiny quantities of solutions were used to minimise contaminated waste. About 10 ml of B72 solution in a polypropylene bottle was used for treatment, deionised water for swabbing was placed in a disposable plastic tray; cotton-wool buds and a cheap nylon brush were used for consolidation and cleaning, and disposable plastic tweezers were used for manipulating swabs and the artefact when necessary.Risk assessment showed that the greatest danger was a speck of paint accidentally being inhaled or ingested during treatment. To avoid this, a Perspex screen was secured between the task light and the table (see Figure 7). The conservator wore a lab coat to protect her clothes from contamination. She also wore a disposable polyethylene apron, and nitrile gloves. The gloves and apron were removed and bagged immediately after each treatment phase to avoid transferring contamination onto door handles or other surfaces. Fresh gloves and apron were used for each new treatment phase, and a radiation monitor used to check for contamination on hands and body at the end of each stage.
The compass was minimally handled during treatment, and whenever possible tools were used to maximise distance between the conservator’s hands and the radiation source.
The cotton-wool swabs were double-ended, but were discarded after using just one end to prevent contaminated cotton-wool from touching the conservator’s gloves.
Photos were taken between treatment stages to avoid possibly contaminating the camera.
After treatment all tools, used gloves, aprons, solution bottles etc. were rolled up in the polyethylene liner and double-bagged to await disposal. Ventilation was kept running and the room remained a controlled area until all waste was removed.
The worktop, Perspex screen, camera, and conservator herself were all checked again for contamination after treatment.
The work-room was made a controlled area during treatment to prevent accidental or unnecessary radiation exposures. The workbench was covered with a generous sheet of heavy-duty polyethylene taped down at the sides and completely covering the front edge of the bench. This liner contained all tools, equipment and waste during treatment, as well as the artefact itself, to prevent contamination of the workbench.
All tools and solutions were prepared and laid out before the compass was brought into the workspace to keep exposure as short as possible.
Tools and containers were disposable as it was assumed all would be contaminated by radium during treatment. Tiny quantities of solutions were used to minimise contaminated waste. About 10 ml of B72 solution in a polypropylene bottle was used for treatment, deionised water for swabbing was placed in a disposable plastic tray; cotton-wool buds and a cheap nylon brush were used for consolidation and cleaning, and disposable plastic tweezers were used for manipulating swabs and the artefact when necessary.Risk assessment showed that the greatest danger was a speck of paint accidentally being inhaled or ingested during treatment. To avoid this, a Perspex screen was secured between the task light and the table (see Figure 7). The conservator wore a lab coat to protect her clothes from contamination. She also wore a disposable polyethylene apron, and nitrile gloves. The gloves and apron were removed and bagged immediately after each treatment phase to avoid transferring contamination onto door handles or other surfaces. Fresh gloves and apron were used for each new treatment phase, and a radiation monitor used to check for contamination on hands and body at the end of each stage.
The compass was minimally handled during treatment, and whenever possible tools were used to maximise distance between the conservator’s hands and the radiation source.
The cotton-wool swabs were double-ended, but were discarded after using just one end to prevent contaminated cotton-wool from touching the conservator’s gloves.
Photos were taken between treatment stages to avoid possibly contaminating the camera.
After treatment all tools, used gloves, aprons, solution bottles etc. were rolled up in the polyethylene liner and double-bagged to await disposal. Ventilation was kept running and the room remained a controlled area until all waste was removed.
The worktop, Perspex screen, camera, and conservator herself were all checked again for contamination after treatment.
Right. Hubby repairs watches and we have alot of vintage items. Wearing doesnt scare me.. him working with the dial open is my reason to get input from the Crunchers.
Very wise to address the problem. It sounds likely that there will already be radium dust in his workspace. Once all the radioactive parts have been stored in containers I'd suggest completely decontaminating the workspace and its contents as there is likely to be radium dust present which will get airborne again and be inhaled in due course. Here's some further info
This article is about how UK museums with radioactive watches and compasses handle their storage, display and conservation. To give you an idea of how seriously they take the risk, here's the procedure they follow to consolidate crumbling radium on a 1950s compass using archival adhesive:
Thank you for this info.
I'd not recommend that as radon gas will build up in the lead container. Better to store it in a well ventilated place to disperse the radon and to never open the watch to avoid any radium particles getting airborne.
I think personally I would not own such a timebomb even it’s potential to cause harm would completely take away any chance I could enjoy this watch in an ascetic sense as there are a million safer options to choose from . E.G , your in a minor accident and the glass is broken and your in a confined space and you breathe in this dust . Erm no in a word . Thank you for the education and explanation also I appreciate knowing what you have shared 🙂
Hi Helen, good to be taking a safety first stance, but I have some advice. I've been working with ionising radiation in one form or another for a long time.
First of all that card is a reference for monitoring background radiation, rather than for a point source, so warnings designed for whole atmosphere generating that level! If they weren't sufficiently radioactive you'd get no glow.
Second, as an alpha emitter Radium is very safe to handle if done with care. Alpha particles can't penetrate through very thin paper, even the upper (dead) layer of your skin is a complete barrier. This is also why it's safe to wear on your wrist, the crystal and case provide 100 percent blockage.
The only risk is ingestion, as happened to the Radium girls. Treat it like you'd treat rat poison. Wear single use gloves, safety glasses, single use mask and an apron. Never take these into areas you prepare food, and wash your hands at length after working with it. When you do work on them make sure to collect up any fragments or dirt that comes off the dial, rodico to get loose bits on the watch and silly putty for your bench. Dispose of these after each use/day to prevent too much build up.
So with some simple precautions you'll be fine.
My question is, if the watch case is blocking all the ionizing radiation then how is the Geiger counter / radiometer picking up such high levels? Doesn’t that mean there’s leakage out the case?
My question is, if the watch case is blocking all the ionizing radiation then how is the Geiger counter / radiometer picking up such high levels? Doesn’t that mean there’s leakage out the case?
Good point! Always look carefully at your data! I assumed this was with the crystal removed as it was being serviced, only gamma radiation can penetrate through something like an intact acrylic crystal. This is what the 'lead box' would block. The other option is if the outside of the crystal is contaminated with Radium dust from the disintegrating lume, but I'm not sure how that could happen. Maybe there is a micro crack, but doesn't sound likely. I'd take the crystal off the watch and test it independently, then sonicate and do it again.
Apparently some watches (and other glassware) were made with Uranium glass! Under UV/blacklight these glow intense green. The dose rate looks a little high for this though.
I think personally I would not own such a timebomb even it’s potential to cause harm would completely take away any chance I could enjoy this watch in an ascetic sense as there are a million safer options to choose from . E.G , your in a minor accident and the glass is broken and your in a confined space and you breathe in this dust . Erm no in a word . Thank you for the education and explanation also I appreciate knowing what you have shared 🙂
Yes indeed. Especially if there are ever children in the house.
Good point! Always look carefully at your data! I assumed this was with the crystal removed as it was being serviced, only gamma radiation can penetrate through something like an intact acrylic crystal. This is what the 'lead box' would block. The other option is if the outside of the crystal is contaminated with Radium dust from the disintegrating lume, but I'm not sure how that could happen. Maybe there is a micro crack, but doesn't sound likely. I'd take the crystal off the watch and test it independently, then sonicate and do it again.
Apparently some watches (and other glassware) were made with Uranium glass! Under UV/blacklight these glow intense green. The dose rate looks a little high for this though.
I remember orange glaze being a beautiful shade made from Uranium. My Aunt owns an antique store and I remember seeing them actually thinking I liked them very much ! It would be interesting to read the radiation levels ..
Thanks to all who commented and shared info. We have segregated all the "hot" items and cleaned his work station. A radon monitor is coming and we are keen to see if we have any issues in the workroom. We have wanted to do some type of exhaust fan and this was the push we needed. When he polishes a piece, we know the particulates can be bad and he has a vacuum attached, but an exhaust will be extra protection.
What to DO with all the "hot" items is still under heavy review. We dont want to rush to judgement and we dont want to be careless either.
Appallingly there is little guidance locally. How am I really able to toss radioactive material in our public landfill? It has a 1600 year half life. Crazy to think about.