New watch - Stuttering Seconds Hand
I just received this beautiful Merkur Sector dial watch today, and I’ve been admiring it for hours. Then, suddenly, I noticed something peculiar. When I hold it vertically, the second hand randomly skips and stops around 3 o’clock (skipping) and 7 o’clock (stopping), but when I wear the watch normally, it sweeps as usual. This issue only occurs when I hold the watch vertically.
This watch features a basic Chinese Tongji hand-wound movement, believed to date back to the 1960s. Additionally, I’ve read that Miyota 8000 movements also exhibit this behavior, which is not considered defective but rather a design characteristic that doesn’t affect timekeeping.
I’ve come across similar complaints about this issue with my watch, leading me to wonder if this is indeed how the movement is intended to function.
Any expert advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Watch enthusiast at heart. Every tick tells a story, and I’m here for the timeless tales on wrists.
I'm considering the Red 12 variant of this watch. So far I preferred the two hander because this movement doesn't hack. If the behaviour you describe is standard, there's one more reason to forgo the seconds hand.
Can't be right that, surely!. The Tongji was introduced in the early 70's - if memory serves - as the Chinese standard movement, but was discontinued within a decade or so due to the quartz boom. It was brought back I think in 2022/23, as a nod to the 50th anniversary of its introduction. I'd simply contact the brand, and if they confirm this isn't normal, get a replacement.
Form Poljot.24, who sell some models with the Tongji - very trusted place to buy watches BTW.
This watch features a reliable, hand-wound Tongji mechanical movement. It has 17 jewels, 21,600 vibrations/hour and a power reserve of approximately 36 hours and shock protection.
The "Chinese Standard Movement", also known as "Tongji" (Chinese: 统机, "united"), is a mechanical movement developed in the People's Republic of China during the Fourth Five-Year Plan in the 1970s.
It was designed by engineers from several previous Chinese watch factories as part of an industry consolidation initiative by the Ministry of Light Industry. This Tonji movement defines the production of an entire era in Chinese watchmaking history. The triumph of quartz calibers thus ended this era in the 70´ies.
Can't be right that, surely!. The Tongji was introduced in the early 70's - if memory serves - as the Chinese standard movement, but was discontinued within a decade or so due to the quartz boom. It was brought back I think in 2022/23, as a nod to the 50th anniversary of its introduction. I'd simply contact the brand, and if they confirm this isn't normal, get a replacement.
I just got a reply from Murker stating since it’s custom version of tongji the the second hand moves separately. and it has no affect on the accuracy. Idk if there’re lying but I also found this on caliberconer https://calibercorner.com/stuttering-seconds-hand-explained/ (in that case it’s a moyota )
I just got a reply from Murker stating since it’s custom version of tongji the the second hand moves separately. and it has no affect on the accuracy. Idk if there’re lying but I also found this on caliberconer https://calibercorner.com/stuttering-seconds-hand-explained/ (in that case it’s a moyota )
"Second hand moves separately"!. Sounds like BS to me. 🙄 I'd take the back off, and that should answer the question as to what it is.
I have a vintage M. Lacroix that did that. Then it stopped.
Aughh!
Update: Just read another thread https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/komandirskie-2414a-second-hand-skipping.4603853/ and it seems it’s a common issue. Also I tested the accuracy of mine and it’s spot on.
Update: Just read another thread https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/komandirskie-2414a-second-hand-skipping.4603853/ and it seems it’s a common issue. Also I tested the accuracy of mine and it’s spot on.
Bizarre!. Glad it's working well for you though, and if you can live with that quirk, you've got a pretty watch to enjoy wearing.👍
Bizarre!. Glad it's working well for you though, and if you can live with that quirk, you've got a pretty watch to enjoy wearing.👍
Thought the same !at least it’s not happening while wearing 🍻
Tongji movement production didn't fully stop in the 1970s. There was a big drop in production after the 70s, to be sure, but tongji were still being made at least well into the 90s by a small number of factories.
And following that, only a very few, but there have been a few surviving factories.
The Chinese Watch Wiki (July 7, 2015) notes under "Current production":
"Current production
Currently the Standard movement lives on in skeletonized hand-winding versions, some simple automatic versions, and a steadily declining output of the basic version. Most automatic and skeleton versions now lack any meaningful factory identification marks. The quality has degraded significantly on most Standard movements compared to the 1970s, especially on the skeleton versions which are sold extremely cheaply and are disliked by watchmakers. In spite of its excellent design, the Standard movement now has a poor reputation for reliability and generally it deserves it.
However, even at this late stage new variants continue to be developed. The effort involved in such work is an encouraging sign that good quality Standard movements will continue to be available from at least a few sources. Liaoning Watch Factory is producing a new automatic distinguishable by a wider auto-winding bridge that partly covers the mainspring barrel. This has also been seen in combination with a skeleton base movement with a more elaborate cut and decoration than most Standard skeletons. LWF may also be responsible for a new Standard-based open-heart movement, in which the balance has been relocated to the dial side. All of these variants have been enthusiastically adopted by the many new lower-priced Shenzhen-based brands such as Fineat. In 2008 the Shandong Liaocheng Zhong Tai Watch Company introduced a new skeleton version on a 33mm main plate with a simple auto-winding module on the 'magic-lever' principle. This movement is sold by PTS Resources."
That matches with my understanding from discussions I've had with industry folks in China. I visited Shandong Liaocheng Zhong Tai Watch Company twice, in 2015 and 2018.
This photo from my visits (link above) clearly shows new tongji bridges, so before 2022.
(I visited Liaoning Peacock in 2019 but got no close movement shots.)
Tongji movement production didn't fully stop in the 1970s. There was a big drop in production after the 70s, to be sure, but tongji were still being made at least well into the 90s by a small number of factories.
And following that, only a very few, but there have been a few surviving factories.
The Chinese Watch Wiki (July 7, 2015) notes under "Current production":
"Current production
Currently the Standard movement lives on in skeletonized hand-winding versions, some simple automatic versions, and a steadily declining output of the basic version. Most automatic and skeleton versions now lack any meaningful factory identification marks. The quality has degraded significantly on most Standard movements compared to the 1970s, especially on the skeleton versions which are sold extremely cheaply and are disliked by watchmakers. In spite of its excellent design, the Standard movement now has a poor reputation for reliability and generally it deserves it.
However, even at this late stage new variants continue to be developed. The effort involved in such work is an encouraging sign that good quality Standard movements will continue to be available from at least a few sources. Liaoning Watch Factory is producing a new automatic distinguishable by a wider auto-winding bridge that partly covers the mainspring barrel. This has also been seen in combination with a skeleton base movement with a more elaborate cut and decoration than most Standard skeletons. LWF may also be responsible for a new Standard-based open-heart movement, in which the balance has been relocated to the dial side. All of these variants have been enthusiastically adopted by the many new lower-priced Shenzhen-based brands such as Fineat. In 2008 the Shandong Liaocheng Zhong Tai Watch Company introduced a new skeleton version on a 33mm main plate with a simple auto-winding module on the 'magic-lever' principle. This movement is sold by PTS Resources."
That matches with my understanding from discussions I've had with industry folks in China. I visited Shandong Liaocheng Zhong Tai Watch Company twice, in 2015 and 2018.
This photo from my visits (link above) clearly shows new tongji bridges, so before 2022.
(I visited Liaoning Peacock in 2019 but got no close movement shots.)
Really informative 👍🏽😊