The Line Between Tool Watch & Military Watch

Don't overthink it, enjoy them for what they are

I'd categorise them into "issued" and "not issued" as they're all by definition "tools"

Easier, less stressful than overthinking it. 😉👍🏻

Ha I appreciate this sentiment. Although it is my livelihood to overthink such things, I suppose it's good to take a step back at times.

This is a 'not issued' watch that's being presented in the guise of an 'issued' watch. This is the crux of my issue in placing this watch into a proper context.

For me, military watches "should" be one of the core pillars of the tool watch category, as they're the result of many or all of the driving design factors of tool watches plus some specific considerations for a military context.

The line between a watch being a cool, practical watch with a military feel/history and the watch feeling like a soldier costume prop comes down to how genuine it feels to me. Marketing or design elements related to its military style features can be overdone, and with too much emphasis or exaggeration, it turns silly. For some people, a pvd black watch case is already silly and feels like dressing up as a Navy Seal for Halloween, and for others, it's just a different case color they think looks good. The marketing can shape our perception of elements like that, and get in the way too.

and even fictionalized stories about how it would be used in combat.

https://tornek-rayville.us/pages/blakjak-project-brief

Staff Sgt. Highrock? Wow. What tripe. 😆

Perhaps well-intensioned and simply born out of a lot of passion, but the fictional story steps into the silly category I mentioned in my longer comment, personally. If people can ignore that and just enjoy the watch, more power to them.

I know what you mean, definitely some watch designers want to create an aura of military mystique with their timepieces in order to augment their marketing for the ideal tool watch . You’re right that all of it is really just watch “cosplay”. Even the ones with “heritage” in this regard. For me a tool watch / field watch needs to be reliable, legible and rugged. And when I was serving it also had to be disposable. I never wore a Rolex or an Omega in the field. I just needed an accurate digital watch that I didn’t mind getting banged up. When companies want to resurrect a long defunct watch brand to capitalize on some kind of past military connection it just feels so forced sometimes. The more authentic the connection the higher the premium. We all want to have a “story” associated with our watches to make them special, it’s why we empty our wallets but at the end of the day it’s just a story. If you want a good field watch buy the specs and not the propaganda.

You are right.

All that counts is my perception of the watch I am wearing.

True watches aficionados aren't judgemental or callously opinionated in my experience.

And the general public just don't care what we wear. I'm a chronic double wristing fellow. In five years not one person has commented on that fact.

All military watches are tool watches, but not all tool watches are military watches.

Meh, Tornek Rayville makes some good stuff. And their co-owner Bill Yao of MKII fame helped bring about the microbrand waaaay back when.

Cringe story? Maybe.

Is there tactical cosplay? Yes.

Do hardened, bearded dudes, do hard things while wearing them? Yes.

Scroll through Submersible Wrist, Watches of Espionage, Anti-Watch Watch Club and other feeds and you'll see cosplay, and you'll also see legit operators enjoying microbrands, cheapies, and luxury.

If it's a solid watch, made by a solid company, I'd wear it.*

Also who says you need a "tool-y tactical" watch to do tactical things?

My Loier Neptune has "seen" things hahahahaha 🤣.... Maybe not a HALO drop into the South China Sea, but has handled breaching charges, gun/demo ranges, training, rucks, workouts, bath time, and about a bazillion bezel skins thanks to BabyYetti.

Basically what I'm saying is, #useyourtools . Watch doesn't define what you can/cannot do while wearing, you define. YMMV.

*This was from some live demo FYI.

Military watches have to meet set specifications. Tool watches just have to be robust. Pilot watches swing either way

This is awesome feedback, I appreciate all the responses!

@solidyetti I've known Bill for well over a decade - but this is my first critical look at a Tornek Rayville in earnest, and I was curious about the community's take on this type of tool watch to balance out my own for a story I'm working on.

Love the Lorier btw!

A story spun right has a lot of power. The most iconic Everest watch was never there on the first expedition. FAKE military connections or credentials are no different what's worse are the overpriced under speced and poorly finished travasieys that are made by true operators the ones that are so embarrassed by their products they have to black out their features for the marketing.

I found the last bit surprising. As someone people tend not to speak to unless they have to, I get that not everyone receives random comments at the same rate, but I'm still surprised people don't inquire more often, even innocently. Another piece of evidence that most people are not in the business of analyzing strangers except to compare themselves out of envy to your strengths or out of pride to your weaknesses, both of which are subjectively determined by them and largely irrelevant to you.

I only double wrist occasionally at home to use one of my g shock's timers when I'm already wearing something else that day, but I've yet to get used to the feeling of something on my right wrist.

I don’t think there is a line, military watches are a subset of tool watch. In point of fact I think “tool watch” is far too broad of a category to be useful but that’s a different hill to die on.

As far as the tactical cosplay, I guess that’s an individual thing. And the features that make then tactical tools makes them useful otherwise.

I would say all military watch are tool watch, but not all tool watch is military watch. Military watch is a tool watch which build and design to military specification at the specific time or age, The ploprof is a tool watch but not a military watch, the longines of ww2 is considered a dress watch nowadays but was a military and tool watch since it was more robust than other specified by the armed forces at that age and serve as a tool in military.

Well the modern tool watch is most often digital. Climbing Mt Everest or working in an oil field or fighting a war - mostly G-Shocks, though not exclusively. Hikers and the like often prefer a fit bit, or sports watch with GPS. ~20% of people in my office wear a smart watch. All of these are tool watches. I love mechanical watches, but just telling time is simply not enough as most people have a smart phone or computer screen always within reach. I know many many people who do not even wear a watch these days, the time is everywhere except maybe in a casino. So if you mean was designed as a tool watch, that is something different. A new Rolex Sub was designed as a tool watch, but today, for most, it is like a 4WD truck with dirt tires that never goes off road. It just makes a statement. Do I still like them, very much so. Subs and trucks 8-)

As a watch dude, I will engage if I notice something other than the ubiquitous smart anathema.

No matter if it's a Cartier Santos or a Casio Duro. (Saw both yesterday on wrists 😂)

It always surprises me on the responses too. An enthusiast will just start talking about every little detail, and a person who is into the flex, or just not in to watches will acknowledge and then push on.

If a watch has the pedigree and proof of being a standard within a conflict zone, then it's legit. From G-Shock to 62MAS, Citizen Pro master to CWC. The rest are just cool homages, there to be collected and enjoyed.

I remember Mark from Long Island Watch talking about "mil-spec." People often assume that just because something is mil-spec or military-grade, it is better than what the normal population has, but it's actually not true.

Military-grade items have to meet certain specifications. The ones selected by major armed forces are usually the most cost-efficient, not the most robust. I think of CWC, for example, and how their diver is a quartz watch and not an automatic like the Omega before it. A measure done so for accuracy, but also cost efficiency.

Long story short, I believe that military watches fall under the tool watch umbrella. However, they are not necessarily better than other tool watches for the sheer fact of it being military-grade.

I'd like to get to a point where I am willing to do that, but I generally keep to myself if at all possible. I think brief compliments/inquiries about watches are pretty safe, though.

I just like to talk to ppl 😂.

Also to piggyback on previous comments and to the OP, here's a mos def NOT a "mil-spec" doin duty on a real world op lol.*

@blake_buettner

*I'll let y'all figure out what GRENFZE means..

👀🤏🏻😅....hint they have spoons..😂😉

I think it’s a very subjective answer. A tool watch is made for a specific purpose so a well made dive watch is as much a tool watch as a military style watch. A robust highly legible small field watch makes sense too.

Big chunky military style watches are often more about looking cool than being used as tools.

I suppose the best tool watch out there is the Apple Watch

It sounds like Bill (owner/author) may be better at designing watches than marketing them! The military fiction is quite OTT - This is like Bremont on steroids.

The Vietnam and Afghanistan stories are interesting, and I appreciate he's trying to differentiate the brand from other microbrands (even the MKII brand), but ultimately, this was a bit too much of a stretch in my opinion. Maybe it works on non-watch folks but I can't imagine this community would buy into this faux-mil vibe.

I'd personally prefer brands to let the designs and tech speak for themselves. Customers, civilian and military, will come if the products are good.

@blake_buettner

[Combat Veteran here]

One of the biggest problems in the watch world right now is that watch adjectives are abused until the meaning has eroded to the point where the word no longer means anything. For example: "grail"

And you've thoughtfully identified two members of the endangered species list: tool watch and military watch.

There are usually two definitions when referring to military watch:

1. a watch that happens to be worn by people in the military

2. watches that went through a formal procurement process by the unit's supply/support staff and then issued to people in the unit.

RE: issued gear— you always "sign for" issued gear and then return it to your supply folks and sign off that it was returned because issued gear is property of the unit/Army. Sometimes you get to keep stuff, but there's a reason a lot of "issued" gear gets buried in the bottom of a duffle bag and never touched. If it's a particularly sensitive or expensive item, you're on the hook if you lose it.

The fixation on what was "official issue" by any particular unit is actually meaningless and trivial.

Tournek Rayville touched on something that is really important: storytelling.

But it was a big swing and a whiff, because they really lost sight of what a story is.

Taking the most basic required elements in storytelling: there must be

1. a character, who...

2. has a want/desire, and...

3. must overcome an obstacle to fulfill that desire, but...

4. cannot overcome the obstacle until a specific need is met.

The relationship between obstacle to overcome and specific need to be met is the most important part when it comes to evaluating tool watches/military watches.

Using this framework, we can really see where Tournek Rayville missed the mark. We have a character— SSG Jimmie who is on an ODA. This story reeks of the kind of name-dropping smut that usually comes out of the SEAL community, but... we continue...

The first obstacle we encounter: we're delirious from being on the move for days, and we need help counting down the specific days until our next resupply drop; and the Type 7B fills the specific need with its day/date complication. I'm assuming the Roman numeral option gives you the ability to count days elapsed as an alternative to day of the week & date.

The second obstacle is the countdown to mission go-time. And the Type 7B fulfills this specific need through using the dual-purpose timing bezel to count hours elapsed. We're given a non-mission critical need that resonates with most folks— tracking the time back home because you're always wondering what your golden retriever is up to at that very moment.

We then have an inexplicable requirement for this watch to be dive-capable in land-locked Afghanistan followed by our highly anticipated SEAL name dropping! Quite the feat of self-restraint to hold it for the end of the fourth paragraph!

We then get to the meat & taters of the story where the heroic intel/agency folks show up with their trench coats and fedoras— although now that we're in the mission execution phase, this is where we REALLY need to show how the watch has a unique and specific feature that helps us overcome the obstacles that arise as the mission unfolds.

Based on this account, the watch was really only useful before and after the mission critical stuff. So the story falls painfully flat here.

We get a lot of hit & run name dropping (SEALs, 160th SOAR, sexy agency guys).

A few examples of "nice to have" features (knowing what time it is back home, counting hours/days elapsed).

But nothing that was really "mission critical" or game-changing.

That failure to align to a mission-specific/mission-critical obstacle, and the failure to show how the watch was uniquely suited to fill that need— is where this breaks down and you start to wonder if this is just tactical cosplay/LARPing.

To be fair, I can see some specific examples where this would have been really useful and filled a tactical need. Unfortunately, the author wasn't equipped to bridge that gap.

Brainstorming some ideas for mission critical obstacles/needs—

Coordinating with air assets, but they operate using a different time zone (Zulu vs Local): In the fictional Tournek Rayville story, there are references to working with air assets. We never had the same air assets on every mission because the coverage was always reallocated based on that day's particular priority (like when the SECDEF makes a surprise visit to the country and the AC-130 that was allocated to provide your Close Air Support gets reassigned... not that I'm still bitter...)— and the angels in the sky operate using Zulu time since their point of origin is sometimes a different time zone from the spot where we are holding the big surprise party. Whoever is coordinating with the air assets could be simultaneously translating Local time and Zulu time.

I need to send reports/updates up the chain, but reporting must reference both Local and Zulu time: The story had a reference to the mysterious folks who wear trench coats and fedoras. One of the most important parts of their job, is sending reports about what they've been up to. When they write their reports, they often straddle the Local—Zulu/UTC conversion, so the dual time zone function would be used quite a bit.

We're in the middle of a raid, how much time do we have left? When you are conducting a raid, you generally want to be done and heading out within ~30 minutes. If you linger on an objective too long, your target's buddies have time to organize a counterattack. Because you have so many important things that are top of mind (i.e. fighting), your sense of time goes out the window, and knowing how many minutes have elapsed since the surprise party began could be a life-saving feature when you've lost track of time, but your timing bezel informs you it's time to go.

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I think the Sinn EZM 1.1S is one of the best military watches that not enough people know about.

Obstacle to overcome: when you are in the fight of your life, your brain hyper fixates and drops everything that isn't immediately related to survival.

There are a number of things you need to have in your immediate memory recall: mission specific codewords, the identity of your targets, the physical layout/terrain features you're operating in, most likely avenue of approach for a counterattack, arrival time/what time you need to begin the exfil, etc. When Murphy's Law says it's your lucky day and things go pear shaped— you stop thinking about what time you arrived on the objective.

When you check your watch, you run into your next obstacle: if you have to work through several mental math steps to figure out your time remaining.

If you're looking at a time-only field style watch... I hope you remembered what time the party kicked off! You look at your watch, figure out the current time... then guess what time everything started, then subtract... and then return to the fight.

If you have a dive-style bezel (like the Type 7B), the minute hand points to your time elapsed (let's say, 18 minutes).. then you have to do one more step and subtract 18 from 30 (or whatever the particular mission dictates) to get to the insight you really needed, which is time remaining before we need to run:

30 - 18 = 12 minutes.

But when you're in the heat of the moment... you don't want to be doing math. You want to look at the watch, and acquire the specific insight IMMEDIATELY, then return to the fight.

This is where the countdown bezel on the Sinn 1.1S is game changing. You glance at the watch, and the minute hand is pointing right at 12 minutes on the countdown bezel. No mental math. I'm back in the fight. The countdown bezel is a uniquely game changing feature in a moment where the stakes are highest.

Referencing the picture above, you can see how quickly your brain can get to 4 minutes remaining.

Obstacle to overcome: You can't use the radio to communicate to teammates because the enemy has a listening capability. You can't see your other team, but both elements need to move separately in be in their planned locations at a very specific time.

This is where the central chronograph and countdown bezel coming in VERY handy. Without revealing some specific tricks of the trade... there are specific movements where you need to simultaneously track two things at the same time. The particular operation has some subtasks that all need to be completed en route, and the entire operation needs to be wrapped up at a specific time. If you don't have a dual timing capability (i.e. bezel and chronograph) you have to make a choice to track one thing or the other.

If you can only track one of the events with your dive bezel (using the Type 7B example), you have to keep the second time reference in your short term memory. But having a dual-timing capability allows you to offload more to free up mental bandwidth to focus on staying alert, and staying alive.

Obstacle to overcome: You have a chronograph to track elapsed time, and you need to reference that time in a quick glance... but you have a Daytona style tiny subregister for ants.

This is where the central chrono in the Sinn 1.1S comes through. Using the picture above, you can see the airplane hand is showing: 7 minutes elapsed with immediate clarity.

One last thing— and this hits on the difference between the difference between the Type 7B and EZM 1.1S: Noise Reduction

Both watches pack a lot of information into the dial. Look away, then take a glance at the Type 7B and time how long it takes you to acquire the time and time elapsed. You'll notice that even though the watch is black vs white contrast— there's a lot of white stuff your eyes have to sort through: the minute markers, the 12 hour primary numerals, the 13-24 hour numerals, the day/date, the second hand, the lollypop counterweight on the second hand, the hour/minute hands, and then the timing bezel.

Oh— don't forget we also have the ornamental no-rad symbol and 7B model name in white as well.

Now glance away, and then snap to the Sinn. All non-essential text virtually disappears in red. If you really need to reference the date, it's still there. But it's out of the way when you're operating at peak adrenaline.

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Whenever we evaluate tool/military watches, we're usually trying to interpret the military story, and because of the military story genre: there's an implication of a high set of stakes involved. Being able to see what time it is back home is not high stakes, but coordinating with your air asset is.

Having to train your eyes to ignore the no-rad symbol every time you're referencing the watch for something important is is frustrating. It's those kinds of features that make the watch feel like it was designed to signal military, as opposed to being militarily useful.

@GoldenWatchRetriever Wow huge thanks for sharing your perspective on this! I deeply appreciate your thoughts here. The EZM1 is one of my all-time favorite watches, and its execution stands in such stark contrast to something like the TR, as you've pointed out.

Lots to digest here, but this is very helpful.

Thanks again for the insights (and your service!)

@GoldenWatchRetriever I gave you a shout out in the article that went up today around this watch:

https://thedeeptrack.com/2024/03/video-military-watch-tornek-rayville/