Venture Capital backed watch stores are manipulating the watch market
Watchbox for example is listing a used sinn 556 with an eta movement (meaning old) for 500 dollars above what watchbuys sells it: https://www.thewatchbox.com/shop/4502266.html
However, you can easily find them on used markets for ~1000 dollars.
Its stuff like this that is deliberating pushing up watch prices. They have done this with other brands (especially independents) - and they aren't the only ones doing it.
Have you guys noticed this ? What do you think ?
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All they manipulate is me to look elsewhere. Plenty of places to shop.
I’ve noticed the same thing. They had a Seamaster from 2016 listed for $500 more than the exact same watch from 2021 is going for brand new. They keep doing it, so someone out there must be paying those prices — which is odd since a 10-second Google search will let you know that those are just plain stupid prices. I will never buy from them.
I’ve noticed the same thing. They had a Seamaster from 2016 listed for $500 more than the exact same watch from 2021 is going for brand new. They keep doing it, so someone out there must be paying those prices — which is odd since a 10-second Google search will let you know that those are just plain stupid prices. I will never buy from them.
I think this is wrong - they aren't priced to sell - they are priced to bring the market up - they have a general interest of making watch prices increase.
I think this is wrong - they aren't priced to sell - they are priced to bring the market up - they have a general interest of making watch prices increase.
I have a lot of experience buying and selling used items, and rule #1 is that you don’t get to decide what something is worth. With items like that, the price is 100% determined by the market. The simple fact that you can buy those watches somewhere else for cheaper is proof positive that they aren’t actually driving up the market prices. They may be trying, but in the end they just charge too much.
Another odd thing I learned is that some people will knowingly overpay for something they can get cheaper somewhere else. I don’t get it, but for some the place where they buy something is more important than the price they pay for it.
I have a feeling @Omeganut can break it down better than I can.
To look from the other side, they might be just trying to recoup there marketing expenses. Other sites aren’t putting out the same kind of content that WatchBox. I would assume with what they have invested on digital side the Operating cost for the business is much greater then a smaller shop. Someone has to pay for Tim Masso‘s Salary. They‘be built a brand for themselves and can charge a premium for the trust they’ve established. However the more interesting conversation is about them cornering the Journe market, not them adding $500 bucks on a Sinn.
I have a lot of experience buying and selling used items, and rule #1 is that you don’t get to decide what something is worth. With items like that, the price is 100% determined by the market. The simple fact that you can buy those watches somewhere else for cheaper is proof positive that they aren’t actually driving up the market prices. They may be trying, but in the end they just charge too much.
Another odd thing I learned is that some people will knowingly overpay for something they can get cheaper somewhere else. I don’t get it, but for some the place where they buy something is more important than the price they pay for it.
No, no, no, I think you broke it down perfectly! When it comes to something like watches, the market is so liquid that sellers are price takers - meaning whatever the prevailing market price is, that's the price. Ain't no way some small outfit like Watchbox is going to be able to manipulate the market price. Especially in today's world where a simple Google search will reveal much lower pricing from other vendors - Google returned ~4.15M results 0.85 seconds after I clicked the search button.
It's funny, but there are very few cases of real market manipulation in modern history. It's pretty hard to do. You've got to effectively corner the market, which is difficult at best. There are 2 attempts that I know of that almost worked:
The most successful market manipulation throughout history comes in the form of lobbying governments to pass regulations in your favor. So, for example, back in the day England gave a monopoly to the East India Company, which imported tea back to England in exchange for opium. When the Chinese government protested, the English navy intervened on behalf of the East India Company and decimated the Chinese military, in order to protect "free trade" - in other words, giving the East India Company carte blanche to flood China with opium!
Lots and lots of examples from the modern day, but... probably best not to talk about, as I don't want to offend anyone!
Anyway, weird that Watchbox is doing this. I mean, as @OlDirtyBezel points out and @foghorn point out, it's just driving people to look elsewhere. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say either:
I noticed similar with Crown & Caliber, although I think they clean & service their watches so I can understand them being a bit more expensive than a regular used piece. But when a 3 year old watch is the same price as new, I don't get it.
Don't buy. It's not like you need a (another!) watch. People are asking stupid money for stupid watches. Invest your cash, buy a dog, take the family on a holiday, renovate your bathroom, get a boat... whatever. This stupidity will pass in a couple of years.
2. my guess is that's more error than price fixing - otoh 75% of watchbox revenue is rolex/patek throw in FP Journe and you're over 80. Could be they are just happy to hold this and if it sells call it a bonus, if it doesn't big deal - no hurry.
3. though Watchbox isn't above trying that - its widely understood they undertook a few years of buying FP Journes on the QT, drained the market and then jacked the price. though unlikely to see that on a brand like Sinn. De Bethune OTOH????
2. my guess is that's more error than price fixing - otoh 75% of watchbox revenue is rolex/patek throw in FP Journe and you're over 80. Could be they are just happy to hold this and if it sells call it a bonus, if it doesn't big deal - no hurry.
3. though Watchbox isn't above trying that - its widely understood they undertook a few years of buying FP Journes on the QT, drained the market and then jacked the price. though unlikely to see that on a brand like Sinn. De Bethune OTOH????
Yeah this is exactly what I'm talking about - other watch dealers can't do this because they don't have venture capital - but watchbox has money to burn / hold onto inventory.
Yeah this is exactly what I'm talking about - other watch dealers can't do this because they don't have venture capital - but watchbox has money to burn / hold onto inventory.
I'd separate market manipulation and trying to move prices from just being happy to hold product until the price comes to you. The big difference is what gets sold behind closed doors vs what makes it to the site.
These guys drive prices via the stock they hold but don't advertise.
As I said - Danny Govberg has repeatedly said 75+% of their income comes from 2 brands - Rolex and Patek and yet those two brands are only a small % of the product on their site. The huge majority of Watchbox business is done in secret. Thats where the manipulation occurs.
I'd separate market manipulation and trying to move prices from just being happy to hold product until the price comes to you. The big difference is what gets sold behind closed doors vs what makes it to the site.
These guys drive prices via the stock they hold but don't advertise.
As I said - Danny Govberg has repeatedly said 75+% of their income comes from 2 brands - Rolex and Patek and yet those two brands are only a small % of the product on their site. The huge majority of Watchbox business is done in secret. Thats where the manipulation occurs.
This makes sense.
Guys, check searchluxxee.com (disclaimer: I’m currently writing and doing consulting work for them).
They aggregate results from loads of different resellers, which makes it easier to compare and find the best prices. Right now there are 7 brands (Rolex, Omega, Tudor, Breitling, Cartier, Longines, Tag Heuer) but plenty more coming.
Like many have said..don't buy from them. I've purchased one watch from them via ebay and got a great deal. They do negotiate and if you have alternate sources, they will beat the price. On a side note, every reseller is listing the Cartier Santos for close to $1000 over what you can purchase it directly from Cartier..this, I'd don't understand at all.
You are supposed to make an offer, so never pay list price, even if it is online. If Watchbox wants to move their stock, they would sell it the price you are willing to pay. However, because Watchbox ships worldwide, there will always be someone willing to pay premium. for me, the thrill is the hunt for the lowest price online - and of course, checking with all used dealers with retail shops in my area. many times people are will to pay high prices because they cannot wait. i have made the mistake myself. but now, it is about hunting that makes it more exciting for me, but also taking a great deal of my free time!
Watchbox needs to make money and it doesn't make sense for them to ask too high a price so the inventories are just sitting there. If they list a watch at certain price, I would believe that they want to see it to someone with this price. If not selling, they will have to lower the price by offering some discount.
No, no, no, I think you broke it down perfectly! When it comes to something like watches, the market is so liquid that sellers are price takers - meaning whatever the prevailing market price is, that's the price. Ain't no way some small outfit like Watchbox is going to be able to manipulate the market price. Especially in today's world where a simple Google search will reveal much lower pricing from other vendors - Google returned ~4.15M results 0.85 seconds after I clicked the search button.
It's funny, but there are very few cases of real market manipulation in modern history. It's pretty hard to do. You've got to effectively corner the market, which is difficult at best. There are 2 attempts that I know of that almost worked:
The most successful market manipulation throughout history comes in the form of lobbying governments to pass regulations in your favor. So, for example, back in the day England gave a monopoly to the East India Company, which imported tea back to England in exchange for opium. When the Chinese government protested, the English navy intervened on behalf of the East India Company and decimated the Chinese military, in order to protect "free trade" - in other words, giving the East India Company carte blanche to flood China with opium!
Lots and lots of examples from the modern day, but... probably best not to talk about, as I don't want to offend anyone!
Anyway, weird that Watchbox is doing this. I mean, as @OlDirtyBezel points out and @foghorn point out, it's just driving people to look elsewhere. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say either:
Your reference to the East India Company was great 👍 Although probably not relevant to watches and maybe a little of topic, I just finished watching a mini series on Netflix with Tom Hardy called Taboo.
Most of the dialogue was based around the manipulation of the East India Company and the English monarchy in the 1800’s I believe. The show might not be based on facts, but I found it a great watch.
As you mentioned, online stores such as WatchBox probably have large overheads so would need to sell their watches at a premium, but I doubt they can manipulate the market. According to a very good friend and online distributor of German watches here in Australia, demand for Sinn watches is greater than supply can keep up with, so waiting times for, let’s say their 556 models is starting to get longer so possibly that’s were resellers come in, using that opportunity to make a larger profit.
I’ve just found over the 20 odd years of collecting that patients is the key word.
Anyway that’s just what I’ve observed and encountered over time and of course it’s just my opinion.
Take care my friend 🙏🏻👍
Your reference to the East India Company was great 👍 Although probably not relevant to watches and maybe a little of topic, I just finished watching a mini series on Netflix with Tom Hardy called Taboo.
Most of the dialogue was based around the manipulation of the East India Company and the English monarchy in the 1800’s I believe. The show might not be based on facts, but I found it a great watch.
As you mentioned, online stores such as WatchBox probably have large overheads so would need to sell their watches at a premium, but I doubt they can manipulate the market. According to a very good friend and online distributor of German watches here in Australia, demand for Sinn watches is greater than supply can keep up with, so waiting times for, let’s say their 556 models is starting to get longer so possibly that’s were resellers come in, using that opportunity to make a larger profit.
I’ve just found over the 20 odd years of collecting that patients is the key word.
Anyway that’s just what I’ve observed and encountered over time and of course it’s just my opinion.
Take care my friend 🙏🏻👍
Thank you so much, my man! I have just added Taboo to my queue! I love Tom Hardy!
Thank you so much, my man! I have just added Taboo to my queue! I love Tom Hardy!
It’s a bit brutal in places and a bit of swearing here and there, but I think it’s not out of place or over done. Tom Hardy is great as usual as he is in most his films.
Hopefully you enjoy the show and I haven’t given you a bum steer 👍🤣