Vostok, Raketa and Ethical Engagement

I think it’s a tough issue ethically because you have no idea what the owner of Vostok feels about the war, and the employees probably just want (and need) the work.  
But you’re right I suppose, buying from the company is technically supporting the Russian government. Like most countries, the citizens deserve a better government than they’re stuck with. 
No cut and dry answer imo.

Indeed, which is why I wanted to start this discussion. I'm not sitting in judgement of anyone's choices, I just want to have that conversation. Your points are certainly ones that I have considered, which is why I'm struggling with this issue.

It's a very difficult issue which I believe has been raised previously but deserves discussion. 

Part of me thinks that the minute number of sales of Vostoks et al are going to have zero impact on the war, and our government (at least in the UK) will continue to buy gas and grain from Russia despite their actions. However, there is still the fact that the watch companies will still be paying taxes to the government....

Regarding your watch. I wouldn't destroy it. It was made during peaceful times. Either keep it, or if you don't feel comfortable doing that then sell it and donate the money to the Red Cross efforts in Ukraine.

It all makes me incredibly sad that as a race we still feel the need to kill each other. I met my husband in Russia and stayed with families over there for a time. It is true that there is more that unites us than divides us. 

I am going to try to tread lightly because I agree more than I disagree with you.  However, where I disagree with you, I strongly disagree with you.

You make an important distinction between new and old watches.  Most Russian watches that I have bought (all vintage), I have bought from Ukraine.  I am waiting for a watch and a bund strap that I bought weeks ago.  I hope that the sellers are safe.  I don't know my Ukrainian geography well enough to know where these sellers may be.  My little purchases are inconsequential.  I do not plan of buying from the Russian Federation for the near term.  This is not a brave political statement on my behalf.  I have long held the belief that territorial integrity should be part of the international order.  If most of the world is going to enact economic sanctions, I will add my miniscule purchasing power to that cause.  The Vostok in my Amazon cart will be deleted.

I didn't pull the trigger on the Vostok because I bought a Merkur instead.  I am waiting for it to arrive.  This purchase is related to my disagreement with your other position.  By buying a Merkur, I don't believe that I am tacitly condoning the Uighur camps or the annexation of Tibet.  Our economic entanglements with China make every transaction fraught with ethical conundrums.  If I am upset about Chinese treatment of ethnic minorities, Covid, artificial islands in the South China Sea, social credit scores, or Hong Kong is foregoing a watch purchase meaningful when I have an cell phone and appliances that are manufactured in China?  Where is the line? Taiwan?

So, I guess my disagreement comes down to this:  if you buy a new watch from Russia I don't believe that you necessarily believe in what the Russian Government is doing.  I don't believe that you are signaling your tacit agreement to the commission any war crime.  I believe that you are expressing your consumerist interests, an expression that I normally applaud.  It is more an act of selfishness than any greater moral stain. Buying a watch is not saying that it is ok to kill innocents.  It is not reading the room.

I struggled with this in 2014 and stopped wearing my Vostoks for a while because of it. I think the biggest thing for me was that I didn’t want to wear something that might make it look like I supported Russia’s actions. Maybe time to wear some other watches and reflect. Currently the only Russian watch in my collection is a Soviet-era Raketa world time that doesn’t see much wrist action anyway, but now it’s definitely staying in the box.

For me this is what I would call "ethical engagement". It sounds to me that we very much value the same things (which is great). What we differ on is the lines upon which we apply our ethics, which I certainly don't criticise you for, because it is your right. 

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I have a few Russian friends and what I have heard from them is that the vast majority of the Russian people do not support this.  That being said, as an American, I have no desire to own a Russian or Chinese watch, especially with military or national markings.  That is just my opinion though, if you want one by all means wear it in good health.  

Vostok is a Soviet company. You are just now having issues with USSR/Russia's behaviors in the world? This is just the latest and it's not Vostok that's the bad actor, it's Putin who is behaving badly. My advice - hang onto the watch, Putin and his acting out may be gone soon. Then you will be happy to still have the watch.

I just want to say that I love the respect and courtesy this community can have in its discussions. In nearly every other instance where a political discussion is brought up, it quickly devolves with lines drawn in the sand and personal attacks. I know this is an international forum where there are such a diversity of views. It's great to see that we can have discussions where we can disagree without denigrating one another. Thank you WatchCrunch!

Ethical purchasing is something that has become both an area of concern and increasingly difficult to achieve in a global market. I have seen massive demonstrations in Russia protesting against the invasion of Ukraine and news reporting gives the impression that the majority of the Russian people oppose Putin's actions. I own an Amfibia and a Komandirskie, both of which were purchased last year. I am not really thinking of getting rid of them, although I won't be wearing them anytime soon. The issue of buying a watch produced in Russia isn't one I had really considered, as I had no plans to buy a Vostok, but I probably wouldn't buy one while the invasion is going on. It may soon be a moot point, with all the sanctions that are being enacted by the US and Europe even as we discuss this issue.

I would also like to broaden this discussion on ethical watch collecting. @mpower5266 made an important addition in his discussion to include China, and that brings another issue to mind, working conditions for the people making watches in China. When I buy a mechanical watch on AliExpress for far less than $100, even less than $50 in some instances, am I supporting cruel and inhumane working conditions or am I providing a job for someone? Further, is it any different if I buy a Sea Gull watch on AliExpress, or if I buy a microbrand primarily manufactured or assembled in China? I ask as someone who considers these issues even as I purchase more Islanders.

Interesting comments, very thought-provoking. 

It seems obvious to me that only large-scale economic disengagement with Russia (and China  imo) would make a real difference. Meaning large corporations and energy companies . But in America the dollar is almighty and if they’re making money you’ll probably never see that.

Anything we could do would be for own consciences, and that’s very important on a personal level too!

I agree with everything here - particularly on the discussion about China. These are complex nuanced issues - China has also become a poor actor on the world stage and demonstrating extreme control over its people. I've been to China many years ago (late 1990s), and saw the crippling poverty they were living in - particularly in rural areas -open sewers and poorly lit the streets, crumbling roads and other infrastructure, unfinished buildings etc etc.. Yet it was joining the WTO that bought 450m people out of extreme poverty since 2000. 

Since then, I remember the issues that Apple had with the high suicide rate in their manufacturing plants, and these were highly skilled workers. There is no evidence that watch companies are exploitative of their workforces, but there is also no evidence that they are treated well. Complicated, yes. Let's keep this dialogue open.

I think this is quite an interesting debate - I for one have not really considered the politics behind my watch buying activities, and perhaps I should. I would be uncomfortable with anything made via cruelty, or by a company with a track record of unacceptable behaviour. 
With reference to the examples already raised, I am not one who is heavily invested in Vostok or anything via AliExpress, so I have not considered how I would feel about owning such products at this present moment in time. Then again, a healthy level of perspective is required, and it is difficult to see how we could politicise a physical watch; it is just a movement, a case, a dial, a bracelet/strap.

I do have some issues with the use of some materials as I am vegan, but I also appreciate and am sympathetic to the fact that a vintage leather or wool item can be reused and reloved, which puts me at loggerheads with many others in similar circles. This is another subject for another thread, but I just put it here to try and explain what sort of ethical process I already adopt before bringing politics into things.

with that same logic, does it mean we need to boycott German and Japanese watches too? of course not. Not everyone in Russia is a prick. Likewise I was still drinking Starbucks and Coke even though I hated Trump during his term. 

Yup i have stopped buying watches that come with animal leather straps. but I prefer steel anyway. That said, our watch collecting ways are very environmentally unsustainable too, especially if we are using up metals, precious metals etc. but if one only keeps a mechanical watch that doesn’t use batteries, I think it would be the most sustainable behavior! But of course, many of us here are definitely guilty of overconsumption, myself included. 😔

Interesting discussion chaps. Ive not really thought about it this way!

The truth is, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. We've all just got to do what we think is right for us as individuals. And sharing that conversation allows us to explore these ideas, which firms up our values and enables us make the right choices to live up to them.

Absolutely. I own a Scuba Dude which is one of my favourite watches. I still wear it but im on the fence about other purchases.

I went looking for some dialog here about watches and Ukraine. Don't know what I was looking for but this was as good as any. Thank you @Richierich 

I'm not looking to buy a new Russian watch, however, my go-to for Soviet-era watches is Etsy, and all of my favorite sellers are from Ukraine 🤷🏻‍♀️ with beautiful, serviced watches, and a huge selection. I don't really find Russian watch sellers there, I see them more on eBay. Waiting for any shipment from Russia takes months, too, at least that was my personal experience a year ago when I ordered a Luch from Chelyabinsk.