The acceptance of fake watches...

Here are my totally incoherent, know-nothing, raving lunatic ramblings:

• As a Libertarian nut job, I believe that producers have an absolute, iron clad right to their own intellectual property and brands, and that it should be illegal, without question, to violate those rights
• However, you will note that traditionally Swiss manufacturers have not aggressively pursued legal action against counterfeit manufacturers nor counterfeit consumers.  It would seem counter-intuitive.  If black market counterfeits are destroying their brand images and costing these companies billions of dollars in revenue, we should expect them to come down on counterfeiters with the fury of a thousand exploding suns, no?  Take Disney, for example.  The moment anyone uses any likeness of any of their characters, they will come down on that person / entity like a ton of bricks - there are many people literally sitting in prison this very moment due to Disney IP violations.  Why hasn't Rolex pursued the same strategy, when some estimates say that more counterfeit Rolexes are produced and purchased each year than genuine Rolexes?
• Counter-intuitively, it may be that counterfeit luxury goods do not hurt the actual luxury goods manufacturers to the extent that the conventional wisdom would have us believe.  For the most part, folks who purchase replicas know they're purchasing replicas, and are doing so because a) they cannot afford the real deal and never will be able to afford the real deal, b) they have no intention of ever buying the real deal, and just like having a facsimile for fun, or c) can't afford the real deal yet, like having a placeholder for the time being, and then will eventually buy the real deal when they have saved up enough.  You will note that in all 3 examples above, the real manufacturer is not losing out on a single dime of revenue.  In many cases, (for example, if you delve into the replica community on Reddit) you will find that most folks there fall into camp (c)

As a producer of goods and services, you only go after a copycat / counterfeiter if they are depriving you of real revenue.  In most cases, counterfeits neither serve as adequate substitutes, nor do they harm the branding of the Swiss manufacturers, and in many cases they may help to bolster future sales, in that they help to keep the genuine article top of mind for folks aspiring to own the real deal one day.

If you look at what happened to Noob and VSF and the other highest quality counterfeiters in China, the authorities only ended up coming down on them when they finally produced a set of super-rep movements that nearly rivaled the movements in the genuine articles, and had the temerity to then display these replica movements at some industry show!!!

Regardless, I've purchased over 30 high-quality fakes from China over the course of this past year to hand out as gag gifts to friends and family.  Not a single one of the 30+ folks I've given a watch to regularly wears a watch - other than Apple Watches, and those, as we all know, aren't real watches.  😜  My friends and family LOVE their fake watches, know they're fake, tell everyone immediately that they're fake, and they get to feel the frisson of excitement of having an illicit, black market good sitting on their wrists.  For people like me, it's hipsterism for the old and boring.

I'm getting on a flight in 2 days, and I got a watch case holding 5 fake Rolexes.  If the authorities confiscate them, then they're doing their jobs.  God bless 'em for protecting Rolex's IP.

Hollywood produces fantasies so they see that watch as a prop (a strangely placed one really). Customs agents are less humorous and their job is to literally control commerce and crime (oversimplifying here). 

My take is that fakes are dangerous to everyone. When you don't trust what you are buying then you might be less likely to buy it. That hurts brands. If you buy a fake watch unknowingly, that hurts consumers. Nobody wants to be ripped off.... and it is getting much harder to tell these days even for the experts.

I was given a replica watch once, and it looks good, but I cannot wear it in good conscience. I would give it away, but that is like passing counterfeit money to me.... I don't want to be involved. Maybe I'll blow it up for a TV show! haha

I follow what you are getting at; it is like the pirate download that leads you to wanting to purchase the official version...However, measuring damage to a brand purely by the number of watches sold is only a solitary aspect of many in the discussion around replica watches. The damage to a brand identity can (I say, 'can') be measured in some instances in 7 digit sums, which makes loss of possible watch sales a paltry sum in comparison.

Watch companies certainly do crack down on counterfeiters regularly, it is just not in the international news much compared to bootleg Fantasia DVD's or a gazillion fake 'Guns & Roses' T shirts 😁

It's a slippery slope from my point of view. There are hommage watches that are almost as convincing as fakes, but the logo is different. Yet they are copying the original design in almost every way. At the same time almost every watch manufacturer copies certain design elements. Would they be protected also?

Aside from that I wonder if European customs officials could even spot a good fake.

I remember getting the full treatment in Frankfurt years ago, as I was dressed casually, and the official wouldn't believe that I was on a business trip to Germany. So yes, if you are unlucky they will check for almost anything.

Agreed 100%.  I think you make a great point.  If / when a counterfeiter begins to damage the brand equity of a given manufacturer, that is precisely when we would expect that manufacturer to go after the counterfeiter.

I think Noob and VSF were beginning to create such high quality fakes / movements that their replicas got to the point that they were nearly indistinguishable from the real deal.  And, per @watchhunter 's insight, the moment you can no longer reliably tell the difference between genuine and fake, the consumer rightfully becomes hesitant to purchase, and the genuine manufacturer loses out on revenue / has their brand tarnished.

As such, I applaud the fact that the authorities cracked down on Noob and VSF and the other "super replica" counterfeiters in China.

When I buy a fake, I want it to scream "FAKE" and be able to laugh about it.  25 years ago, I bought a Submariner for $10 on Canal Street in NYC for a buddy of mine.  That night, he wore it to a nightclub, was in the middle of the dance floor when the bracelet snapped, and the watch hit the floor and shattered into 352 pieces.  We still laugh about it to this day.

The famous Cartier steamroller

Why wear a fake watch or other luxury item while travelling?  You're just inviting official harassment or worse all for a fake?

I don't wear watches to impress other people so never understood the desire to wear a fake watch.  Years ago a friend of mine gave me a fake Cartier Tank.  It seemed like a really high quality replica and looked great but I couldn't bring myself to ever wear it because it felt fraudulent and embarrassing.  I ended up throwing it away even though I think he paid a couple hundred bucks for it.

As for fake watches in movies, it's a prop and in my mind it's in the same category of using fake guns or fake luxury sports car in a scene.  It's make-believe.  I don't think seeing a fake watch in a movie encourages anyone in the real world to go out and buy a fake.

Not sure if you’ve seen the movie yet, but Jonah Hill’s character strikes me as exactly the kind of degenerate that would wear a fake RM.  Apt costume design if you ask me. 😉

If I see a high end watch on somebodies wrist, it doesn't make me think any more highly of them. If that watch is a fake, however, it certainly does make me think less of them. If they are trying to gain respect based on a lie, it makes me feel that either they may have some self esteem issues, or perhaps  can't be trusted (it depends on who they think they may be fooling).

I have much more respect for someone wearing a watch within their budget than someone playing make-believe and pretending to be someone they're not.

As far as the use of fake watches in movies is concerned, I agree with @s0ckpupp3t - they are nothing more than props.

Indeed: Maybe the use of a fake was deliberate in order to add fitting background to the character who at one moment even discusses his 'love of watches'...

Fakes in movies or TV? Don't care, it's all fantasy.

Fakes in real life? Verboten

I just watched Don't Look Up over the weekend and @Orangehand you are spot on.  Jonah Hill's character is 100% likely to wear a fake.

Fake is still fake and scam is still scam.

Prop using for movie or not, I personally think that while there still demand for using these fake watch, the manufacturer will be happy to produce more of it. To using fake watch is to disrespect the Brand image, its heritage and people around you. 😢

As (likely) with everyone else here, I think the personal purchase and ownership of fake watches is bad - though I am sure there are some specific (educational) use cases where I could be convinced differently. Knowingly wearing one though is a non-starter for me.

In regards to TV and movies, I think these companies are well within their rights to use fakes as they are attempting to take a fiction as close to reality as possible. Kudos to the folks in that business who are willing to take in down to that detail - especially in the case that the watch has very little actual screen time. The specific example with the RM and Jonah Hill's character is quite funny, as I agree with @Orangehand, that I could absolutely see him wearing a fake.

On a related note - I really enjoyed the Hodinkee episode where they interviewed Daniel Dae Kim on his collection, and when he described how he personally likes to find a watch he imagines his character would wear for the role he is doing. Is this possibly an excuse to buy a new watch?... Sure! One of the benefits of the occupation I suppose, but I imagine there are method actors who might take it to this level of accuracy just to get in the mind space of their character.

i tried Reps in my early 20’s. I purchased a rep Sub and liked the watch but never felt satisfied. There is a whole community of collectors who chase the perfect rep. When I purchased my first real Rolex the feeling of accomplishment was different and never looked back. I have a few watches that were highly rept. And can’t imagine not owning the real thing. Years later I still hold those watches in high regard. Each one represent an important time in my life. I won’t judge anyone who wears them, I just know my watches mean something different to me. Plus these companies have worked hard to build a brand and reputation that deserves more respect. Companies like Invicta and Parnis are capitalizing on the hard work and success of Rolex and Panerai with “Homage” watches that are really just replicated knockoffs. If I created something special and another company duplicated it I would be very upset. 

Why do you think it is fake? 

Mr. Kim is legit on this.  He temporarily sourced a legit vintage piece from none other than Mr. Eric Wind for one of his movies

https://www.instagram.com/p/CU8-4XUroWA/?utm_medium=copy_link

To presume that the intent for the fake/prop watches is malicious is a bit of stretch.

Theft of intellectual property is a major concern for not only the watch brands and the studios, but also for the workers behind the scenes. The theft of digital content online directly effects the very prop artists who make and handle the watches in the production. Residuals in films and TV are used to supplement the Pension and Health Care/Welfare (P&W in the industry) for workers since there can be gaps in work depending on the length between productions. Yes, actors and writers get checks, but for "below the line" workers it goes to P&W. That why the shift to only online platforms is a major issue in the industry and the death of the DVD has placed additional burdens on the P&W funds. For those workers it is a retirement and health care issue.

The key difference is the "fake" watches US or Swiss customs would be after are and/or were for sale to the general public. On set/stage it is a prop for theatrical/film production, is not for the general consumer. Most are stored after the production and not sold or maybe reused in other productions. Many are often made in coordination with many of the manufacturers as well and sometimes end up as production models for the public (i.e. the Murph and Hamilton). 

theodore,

My job involves lawsuits over intellectual property, so I might be able to add to your understanding.

How you know that this watch was a fake?  Rolex has overwhelmingly benefited through the exposure gained in James Bond movies.  Therefore, another company might loan a watch to a movie.

In the U.S., trademark infringement is a civil charge, not a criminal charge.  You can't get arrested for owning a fake Rolex in the U.S.  But Rolex would have the right to sue you for owning a fake Rolex in the U.S.  … but they are more likely to sue the person selling the fakes.

A trademark only covers the company's name and logo.  The physical appearance is protected by design patents, which expire after 14 or 15 years.  Homage watches are potentially infringing design patents, unless they're based on older designs.

Of Richard Mille's 78 design patents, one has expired and can be legally used by anyone:

If Richard Mille wins a hypothetical lawsuit against Hyperobject/Netflix for "Don't Look Up," they probably couldn't recover more than the price of the watch.  Even that would be a stretch.  Since lawsuits are expensive, it might not be worth the risk.

It might be more rewarding for a company like Rolex to pursue lawsuits against companies like Pagani Design, however.

Hi, 

This was just a discussion about how fakes are treated in real life and those portrayed on media; I think if RM or Rolex would start legal cases againt every fake watch they saw/found they would have no time left to make watches, and as you pointed out it would be a total waste of money... 🥺

In the EU no-one gets arrested or criminally charged for owning a fake, but they do fine you and confiscate, although such instances are indeed very rare.

Just as an aside, the case design of the watch in the Netflix feature is of a newer model and not the same as the design in your picture which dates from more than 22 years ago....

All i would say, is that fake watches are utterly unacceptable. 

Speaking of which, i did buy a fake rolex from SZ in china over two decades ago, just to see how good they can be. Needless to say it is nothing but bunch of rubbish. Not gona discuss how rubbish it was, shortly after i had it destroyed. Over and done. 

I think the persecution goes too far when just wearing a fake watch gets the thing confiscated. Selling it is another matter.

What about sports fans attending an NFL game with a non-authorized T-shirt with the team's insignia? Can they confiscate that too and send you home naked?

I doubt the laws will be the same across the world on this issue though.

I own a Rolex Submariner , I bought it as a retirement present to myself when I retired after 30 years in a high pressure dangerous career. since then I have spent a good chunk of its wrist time explaining that “no it isn’t a fake”

a Few weeks ago in my new job, I was given a Rolex Daytona to examine to see if I thought it was a fake, it felt like a Rolex it wound like a Rolex and when I took the back off, I was very surprised to see a Rolex movement in the back. It lost one second in 48 hours. Now as the watch was found in suspicious circumstance, it was taken to a Rolex dealer who said that it was a superfake.

He only announced this after he took it in his back room and compared it with the exact genuine model under a microscope. he said that if he didn’t have the genuine article to compare it with side by side, he wouldn’t have been able to tell.

I think over time the lines are becoming blurred as to what is acceptable and what isn’, it’s personal choice. The thing is the average man on the street, probably assumes all Rolex watches are fake, because unless he’s a watch man he probably can’t understand why someone would wear a family car priced watch when he can jut look at his phone.

if it is a movie prop it is understandable i think. it is just a prop. however in real life i didnt like a fake watch. in my country indonesia shady figure (influencer, artist) likes to flex their fake watch usually richard mille, rolex etc for their shady purpose like selling a bullsh*t trading class etc. thats tell you what kind of people they are. just accept who you are and just buy a watch within your reach. just my opinion