Direct Design Copy vs Homage / Tribute

Homages... copies... it's all the same thing. If it's that easy to copy a 'luxury' product, then that product is cheap (to manufacture, not to buy). Instead of going after the copy, go after the brand making cheap products and selling them for luxury prices. Then maybe the luxury brands will get off their arses and produce luxury (i.e. expensive and difficult to manufacture) products.

from my perspective homage is a direct copy from the original brand with just a different movement, quality, and logo just like sturhling or parnis brand. if they just take a few aspect from the original brand and develop with their own style i dont think it is homage at all just like lorier (i dont have a lorier product but i like their design). watchworld industry has been running for +100 year and i think some modern design element must have at least a bit taste from the previous design wheter intentionally or not. whatever the case i dont have problem with homage just wear and buy whatever you like. cheers🍺

I’ve always thought the word Homage had been used a little tongue in cheek/sarcastically/euphemistically in the watch world, to describe those watches that were fairly shameless copies of existing successful watch designs, without actually putting the logo of the company being copied on the dial as that then strays into replica territory.

Feel free to use excerpts from my little post on "the good homage", under which we had a brief discussion concerning these topics. 😉

Personally, I think the word is incorrectly used in the watch world. The Tudor BB GMT, is a homage to the older Rolex GMT Masters. Pretty much everything about the Tudor is a new design, but there is no question where it got its inspiration from. This is the true meaning of the word homage. To make something new, but be inspired by something else. This in my opinion is a respectful way to pay homage to the past.

Pagani Design is not a homage brand, it's just ripping off the designs of popular watches, to make a profit off someone else's intellectual property.

Personally, I don't understand why people buy them, other than maybe to test the waters on if they want the real thing. For around the same money, you can buy a Seiko, Orient, Casio, or Citizen, with long-respected histories, and original designs.

Why wear a copy of something else?

This: with varying levels of manufacture taken into account, but this exact description is usually my response. 
If that sounds dismissive, it’s not. I do own a couple, and am more open to them now than before considering some of the options available. Let us also mark the distinction between an homage and a fake; they are not the same.

I purchased this for $40 used on an auction site, and would wear it over any PD “homage” any day, so it’s not about cost. 

I think everyone has different definitions for different words. I find a Lorier is much more inspired by different watches, while something like MK II watches (https://www.mkiiwatches.com/) would be homage watches. Calling back to older watches that probably won't be made again, or if is made again its to be a homage of the original. 

For the Steinhart and Pagani Designs, I would say that they are designed to look like modern pieces. I wouldn't call this an homage because these watches are still being produced but a much cheaper alternative. Some people who aren't watch collectors just like the look of certain watches and don't care for the brand. People might confuse the watch for a higher end one however it clearly states on the dial that it isn't and I doubt people who buy these watches try to pass it off as the real thing. A GMT Master II is an iconic watch, however even people with money struggle to buy it, imagine someone who is earning $20 an hour. However a Steinhart sounds more approachable. 

My point here is that maybe we should consider recovering the word homage using the true meaning as from many comments I read, we are simply not using the word to describe the type of watch, but, as rightly pointed, like an euphemism.  This is what I mean: 

In that regard Lorier Neptune or Traska Summiteer are, indeed, homages in the true meaning of the word. 

A direct design copy, does more or less copy the external design of the watch. This might not be anybody's cup of coffee, I'd be hypocritical if I condemned this as I have had a few direct design copies (Smiths, San Martin) although I've sold them. 

Direct design copies have helped me to love, for instance, the 36mm Explorer size with the Smiths or appreciate the Seiko 62 MAS with the San Martin. I finally sold both and got the Lorier and the Traska as I truly believe those are homages, tributes if you prefer the word.

Here some examples of what I mean by design copies I don't have any issues with them of my own:

And what maybe we should consider "real" homages or tributes:

All this said I know there are a few shades of gray with some homages closer to design copies than the average.

Again, I'm not against direct copies or the like, just would like to them be called what they are.

This is my point. I don't think homage and copy should be the same thing, precisely because the words have different meanings. 

I believe that Lorier is the homage in the true sense. If I compare the San Martin 62 mas I had and the Lorier I got afterwards, both are great watches, but the second one is a direct design copy. Is not paying any homage, it's just simply replicating a design and capitalizing on this.

Thanks, actually your post inspired me and I even commented there rising these points. Well I do always a see a Smiths to advise against buying from Timefactors new, but that's another story. I know we're quite lonely trying to recover the word "homage" from the negative connotation. I we are frank with ourselves and start calling direct design copies to those which are, that would be a great step. Not even clones, as clones try to imitate as much as the original watch, including movement and other features, that would be the prior step to a straight fake.

Great points. Pagani design are, mostly, direct design copies. As why people buy those, I really don't know what other people do so, but I guess a lot has to do with the fact that many of the most design copies watch are pure classics and those classics have a beauty difficult, but not impossible, to match or reach. In my case I got a 36 design copy of the Rolex Explorer 1016 because I wanted to test the waters with that size and because, for me, is the most beautiful watch. Also I wanted something I could use looking vintage without being too delicate. I didn't expect to ever be able to the the Explorer (and the 1016 most probably will never be able to have) and now I have the 124270 and the Traska to use when not wanting to worry too much in daily rough adventures. 

The San Martin 62 mas was my pic when I saw the Seiko SLA017. Would that SLA017 have had other more reasonable price and not be limited, I would have saved for the Seiko. But I loved the bezel to dial proportions of the SLA and the San Martin, and newer reinterpretation, in my opinion, don't have that magic.

But I sold both design copies and found pure joy in the Traska and the Lorier, so sometimes those design copies are ways to experience, challenge our taste and form our future collecting path. Just my two cents.

Great points indeed. I however doubt homage should be attributed if the original piece is vintage and no longer produced. I still believe we would be in front of a direct design copy (DDC) no matter how old or new the original piece. Does the watch copy the design of a past or present watch? If yes, then it's a DDC. 

But it's true, is easier to justify buying copies of long out of production original pieces, like in my example the Rolex 1016. But still I think if the design is the same, it is a design copy. 

The Traska Summiteer pays homage to the 1016 but it's entirely its own thing. 

sorry for misunderstanding homage word lol, thx for enlightening me. for the conclusion i love and will support homage if it is done right, but not with direct design copy. it's just lazy for me

Yet another thread and another video on this subject?

Hope you can bring some fresh perspective but as this topic has been beaten to death for decades, I have doubts. 

To clarify, my topic is around the words we use, not the legitimacy of the watches.

Funny how, depending on the commenter's or article writer's perspective, it's either a "rip off", an "homage", or it "takes design cues from" some other more expensive/popular piece. All in the eye of the beholder. Put me down as one who dislikes blatant rip off copies but has a soft spot for those that take design cues. ;-) 

As I said...

Rolex has not made many changes in like forever so their 25 year old designs can be legally copied. The Harley Davidson engine had been copied along with those $4000.00 truck heaters you can buy off amazon for $150.00. The Homage industry is just the fake industry going legit with their own branding. They are not trying to fool anyone anymore and are priced accordingly. I can buy a homage of a Rolex anywhere but good luck trying to get an actual Rolex at anything under 3 times retail.

I've not seen many threads about the definition of the wording but I might have missed them of course. I can only spend a very limited time in social networks. I know I will not change the meaning given the feedback, but at least will try myself to use the words correctly.

Homage sort of imply an admiration but with a twist, at least for me. I know in the PC world there are clones. I do wonder if there's a better word that will be more fitting for this category, a replica, but not an out right fake.

Yes, replica comes close but it's something different entirely. I use "design copy" because, although two words, do better represent the truth behind those watches.

Considering that Parnis was mentioned in this thread...

Here are two Parnis watches I consider homages - what do you think?

First, the Parnis PA6086. It is IMHO an homage of the Vacheron Constantin triple calendrier 1942:

Very similar design, but not a full clone. The Parnis does not have full calendar functions, and where is the small seconds on the VC the Parnis puts its day complication, and it has large seconds instead.

Second, the Parnis PA6073. It's an homage to Panerai, but not really any specific Panerai model, more their general design language. I don't recall any Panerai model focusing on the digits 4, 8 and 12.

Another tricky issue is how to classify watches built to military specs?

The original watches supplied to that military force at the time are in some sense orginals, but - depending on how detailed the specs are - usually not original designs.

Is this watch by Hruodland even an homage?

Or is it simply implementing an old spec as faithfully as possible?

A few weeks ago, Max reviewed the Junghans meister driver. 

Very similar to the Wehrmacht's Dienstuhr, here a version from Zenith:

This is slighly murkier territory than the fliegers, because the Dienstuhr was allowed to carry the maker's name on the dial, but other than that pretty much every Dienstuhr looks the same. There are similar examples from other armed forces that also followed this we-spec-you-make model of watch supply.

This occupies somehow a place in the overall world of homages, yet it does not quite feel the same to me as other homages or replicas.

This is a very interesting question indeed. Thanks for bringing it up. Those designs are iconic in themselves with design following function. To many of those type of watches there's little to nothing to add, subtract or modify aside from hands and, of course, the movement that still has to endure specific stress test and accuracy. A flieger is a flieger is a flieger. Some mil specs watches did not even have a brand name back in the day. Here I believe the history of the brand plays an important role, so new comers I don't think they are really copying anything in another sense because the original ones copied a pre established design themselves. I'd feel rather comfortable with any of the modern version of those watches because the look, like the Rolex 1016 is iconic in their simplicity and utility but would love to have maybe a vintage original one best. 

Good catch. Yes, also I believe many of those brands have been copying designs to learn about that and will slowly bring their own models from direct design copies to homages and probably, in the future, full original designs. The Parnis PA6086 is hot by the way. But it has like what... a second time zone?

Yes, it has a second time zone, it's a GMT. Pretty cheap for a mechanical GMT (£57 on AliExpress, about £72 on ebay). Just a tad below the £18,600 for the VC.

Yes, great value :D

I think the only people that care about homage or copy watches are people like all of us. It bothers some of us because it’s our passion/hobby. Similar to Shelby Cobra replicas…only people in the hobby really care. The general public doesn’t notice or even have an opinion. However, fakes are not cool and should not be classified as homages IMO.