Japans obsession into German coats of arms in their Logos

Hello fellows,

Disclaimer: what follows is my personal subjective (unpopular) opinion. It will be a (constructive) criticism of the Japanese watch industry, especially design and marketing. I personally love Japanese watches and also quartz watches (but quartz is not the point). That's why I see it as legitimate not to blindly find everything good as a "fan boy", but also to note where certain brands have their deficits. This should therefore not be taken as an insult or disparagement.

 ========================

Japanese an German people have had a close connection for over a hundred years. Politically, socially, economically. There are numerous similarities in many areas, which are often reflected in their products and their qualities. It is not for nothing that Japan and Germany are the benchmark for quality in numerous industries. Even if Germany closely monitors developments in Japan and compares them with itself, it has generally been the case that Japan has often taken Germany as a role model. However, they were never really in competition, but complemented each other almost harmoniously. The best example of this is my Junghans Spektrum with its German minimalist but authentic design, but with a beautiful Grand Seiko movement. You are welcome to read my article about it. But back to business.

This is also the case in marketing and design in the watch industry, especially in logo design.

Although, as we all know, Switzerland is the world standard for watches and is to a large extent German-speaking, it was often decided to use Germany (the second major watchmaking nation in Europe) as a sketch template.

I can understand the motives. The worldwide expectation for a watch, especially in the 70's and 80's, was to be "European". Your name should sound European, your design should appear European and your logo should also appear historical and traditionally European. But Japan was not alone in this. In the USA, too, attempts were made to market brands in European terms. That's how the dollar watch brand was named "Ingersoll" and Bulova is still trying to be reminded that the founder was a European migrant. China is also going the same way today with their names and logos, which are supposed to sound Italian, French or German in some way and are more reminiscent of different food dishes in Europe.

But let's get back to the logos of Japanese watch brands. I break this down by the brands: Orient, Citizen, Seiko.

Orient

I think this is a good example as Orient's logo, especially in Europe, is considered "ridiculous" and often rejected. However, I have never heard an explanation as to why. Personally, I have no problem with the logo, but I see a clear weakness as to why that might be.

In the logo of Orient, two lions from left and right hold a crown. However, this is a historically very common design for coats of arms for noble families, royal houses, cities and states in German-speaking countries. Even the historic brewery in my former hometown had a similar coat of arms.

Here are some examples of German state coats of arms such as Bavaria..

Image
Image
Image

When grew up here in Germany with these coats of arms and their understanding and seeing this coat of arms template on a Japanese watch is a bit disconcerting. I know how Orient tries to explain their coat of arms and somehow interpret the symbols. It is also an honor to serve as a role model. But let's tell it like it is: It's a simple copy of German coats of arms.

And especially in the watch industry, where it is all about differentiation with innovation, history, design and image, a copy is not beneficial. 

As long as you are in the lower price range, this is still acceptable, since you have a technically excellent watch at a reasonable price. But as soon as we get into the luxury prices, that is hardly accepted, at least in Europe.

The Citizens

Citizen also took the same simple path with their luxury division. So these models are decorated with an eagle coat of arms. The eagle, as a strong, elegant and graceful animal that embodies the power of nature, is used as a symbol in many nations worldwide. There are thousands of ways to represent them. However, the Citizen logo looks like a copy of the German eagle coat of arms, as used historically and currently by cities, in the military and at the state level by states and ministries.

Here are some examples of ministries and the coat of arms of the football club "Eintracht Frankfurt".

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Grand Seiko

Unfortunately, Seiko is no exception. In the case of Grand Seiko, the decision was made to adapt the font to the old German design of the alphabet. But made only little changes.

Image
Image
Image
Image

By the way:

I would also like to see more effort in delimiting and differentiating the luxury divisions from the normal model series.  It has always been made very easy for oneself.  

Orient 》》Orient Star

Citizen 》》The Citizen

Seiko 》》Grand Seiko

I wish they put as much effort into marketing and branding as they do into technology.  The quality of the high-priced watches deserve a higher recognition.

Japan is a great watch nation and I am grateful that these incredibly great watches exist. But I expect more originality, more authenticity, especially in the watch industry. It's about history, origin and tradition, which must also and especially be reflected in the name and logo. After all, it's the first thing you see. Whether quartz or automatic movements. There is nothing to hide for in Japan. For this reason, I wish Japan had more self-confidence and courage to present itself as what it is. Gladly with your own coat of arms, names, letters, spellings and calligraphy. It's just my personal point of view, but I think it would give brands more recognition, especially in the luxury segment.

I hope nobody felt offended 😉

I love all these named watch brands and will also add some more in future into my collection.

If there are any grammatical errors in my English, I apologize.

Cheers Fellows

Reply
·

Interesting history/design lesson. Thanks!

·

Youre welcome.

Thank you for reading 😊

·

What's astounding about the logo of Citizen is that at some point, someone higher up in the company looked at what is 100% a poor chicken that went "splat" on a windshield, and he approved it instead of sending the designers back to the drawing table.

·

I don't mind it - as I like the design in and of itself. However, it does feel a little odd as a lot of the oriental design language is amazing.

·

I’ve never been a fan of Grand Seiko using that Gothic font (it’s also worth noting that in perception there’s sometimes very  little difference between Germany and Britain sometimes in Japanese Pop Culture) but it fits right in in Japan, where when you look at so many things there are odd failures of marketing and branding, but they are so very enthusiastic about it. 

·

shrugs 

It's copying German coat of arms because they didn't think a Japanese Mon would cut it with the Japanese audience. They'd know the brands don't have the pedigree for it. 

·

Thx for the lesson my friend, interesting read. I never think any of that before read this story

·

surely there is some plagiarism and misappropriation in font and logos as you have pointed out, but that isnt what sells when shopping for Japanese Luxury watches, for me that is.

IMO, the reason why marketing, branding and overall strategy is secondary to their innovations in tech and horology is they want their customers to be attracted to what goes into the actual watch; movements, hands, indices, dial, finishing, performance and design. Especially in the case of Grand Seiko/Credor and The Citizen, I doubt you’d see any difference in their designs if you had their logos taken away from them. 

·
Catskinner

What's astounding about the logo of Citizen is that at some point, someone higher up in the company looked at what is 100% a poor chicken that went "splat" on a windshield, and he approved it instead of sending the designers back to the drawing table.

Exactly. The sad thing is, that it is almost a one 2 one copy of the "Eintracht Frankfurt" eagle. Frankfurt Airport is the main international Airport where usually Japanese Businessmen arrives. I can truely imagine that ones a Citizen Designer arrived there and saw the Football Club logo and used it for their own.

But another funny Eagle is the huge one in the german Parliament the Reichstag. It is called "The Fat Chick"

Image
·
oakenlander

I don't mind it - as I like the design in and of itself. However, it does feel a little odd as a lot of the oriental design language is amazing.

Me either. The watches and designs are great and I love them. But this brand design is a fact I wont ignore and hope to get improved in future. I also consider one of "The Citizen" lines as a next watch. As a Frankfurter I actually like they used the same Logo as like our Footbaal team and it looks good indeed.

·
Unholy

Thx for the lesson my friend, interesting read. I never think any of that before read this story

Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

·
TalkingDugong

shrugs 

It's copying German coat of arms because they didn't think a Japanese Mon would cut it with the Japanese audience. They'd know the brands don't have the pedigree for it. 

I was literally going to say this.  

@Uhrologe I think you're thinking of using something like this.

Image

I suspect the Japanese domestic audience wouldn't accept using an imperial symbol with 800 years of history for a company that's less than 150 years old.  I suspect it's easier to use a random German heraldic symbol because the original intended audience doesn't have any associations with it.

And while I'm not Japanese, I do wonder if using those sorts of easily recognized symbols for explicitly commercial purposes might be considered in bad taste.

·

Really interesting piece I will think of every time I look at the GS on my wrist..

·
Edge168n

I was literally going to say this.  

@Uhrologe I think you're thinking of using something like this.

Image

I suspect the Japanese domestic audience wouldn't accept using an imperial symbol with 800 years of history for a company that's less than 150 years old.  I suspect it's easier to use a random German heraldic symbol because the original intended audience doesn't have any associations with it.

And while I'm not Japanese, I do wonder if using those sorts of easily recognized symbols for explicitly commercial purposes might be considered in bad taste.

It should be, as Seiko has only ever produced one collection with that aforementioned symbol;

https://watchesbysjx.com/2020/09/imperial-vfa-seiko-4580-7020-emperor-hirohito.html

·
M.addd

It should be, as Seiko has only ever produced one collection with that aforementioned symbol;

https://watchesbysjx.com/2020/09/imperial-vfa-seiko-4580-7020-emperor-hirohito.html

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  Despite how international Seiko has become, I don't think non Japanese buyers are or ever will be the intended audience for their products.  So their design decisions, largely, are going to reflect that.

·

Interesting read. I’ve always noticed this but was too lazy to actually look in to it. 

·

A very interesting read and some surprising reactions among our membership!

I don't feel strongly about the Japanese logos and I own several watches from those big three brands.

I think if you look at heraldry from the British Isles there are also many common themes that look quite similar? So I don't think it's specifically a Germanic link.

Arguably you could go back even further to Roman influence.

All very interesting. To me it's all about perception. 

So for example the Lion and Shields of Orient reinforces their desired image of Fortitude,strength and history in their timepieces?

Or maybe we are all reading too much into it!

·

This was very interesting, thanks for sharing!👍

·

I like it. It's thought provoking. Thanks for writing this.

I think that it is clear that the Japanese are imitating European styles in their branding. You see them as German, perhaps because you are German.

Citizen was founded by a Swiss/Japanese partnership.  The symbol of the Canton of Geneva:

Coat of arms of Geneva

There is the Citizen chicken, hiding in plain sight. Citizen, I think, is borrowing "Swiss-ness" for branding.

Here is a little quote from Orient: "Jun Watanabe, president of Orient Watch Company, he stated that the lion on the left symbolizes the company, while the second lion symbolizes their dealers and partners. The crown above the shield symbolizes the customer. The entire emblem therefore represents Orient’s respect for its customers and the desire to provide them with quality products." A longer discussion can be found here.

I agree that they are borrowing a heraldic tradition. Just a very vague one.

And I have no idea what Grand Seiko is doing.

Two further thoughts:

This is the symbol of the youth soccer (football) league that I joined when I was 7 or 8.

Phoenix Sport Club | Feasterville PA

They used to shout at us in German. I am two generations removed from understanding what they were saying.

And lastly, this Christmas season, remember the weirdness that is Christmas in Japan:

Japanese Candy For Christmas? How About KFC?! - TokyoTreat Blog

If they want to imitate Medieval European symbols, I say have at it.

·

@Uhrologe Your English is fine, very good in fact.  My take is that of one who lives occasionally in Japan.  That said, I think your view is incorrect.

For example: My family has a coat of arms that goes back several generations in the UK and features a Griffin.  So I'm going to take offense at companies and entities that use a griffin not in a pure British context.  Oh wait, 2nd century Mongols in the Gobi desert will be upset with my ancient ancestor that used their symbol.  Those same 2nd century Mongols would also be mad at the European and Asian countries that pretend they came up with it.

And it's worth asking; did the German eagle get ripped off from other ancient societies and Germans should feel poorly about claiming it is German?   Is it German?  My Polish friend also claims it as the traditional Polish symbol and has a big tattoo of it.  🤷‍♂️

But this is more nebulous.  We're talking about companies.  In trying to do business internationally they chose to not use Japanese symbols for logos because they likely thought they could appeal to a broader audience and sell more products.  💰💰💰

A watch with only Kanji writing on it, while it might be considered kind of interesting today, would've never survived internationally 50 or 100+ years ago when these companies formed. 

GS designers, knowing to not use Kanji, a cryptic language outside of Japan, went to the next most obvious choice and used English.  They probably looked at the first examples of English writing in Japan, and it all looked like old English or old German font.   
In the 1800s many Japanese physicians studied in Germany and came home with functional German.  It's why most of the German origin words in the Japanese language are medical words.  I think this is obvious, there is no ancient traditional English font in Japan.

The copying I dislike, and you should as well, is corporate intellectual property theft and reverse engineering.   It avoids ever needing to be original or spend vast amounts on R&D.  And hiding where products are actually coming from.  

Japan takes great pride in stating 'made in Japan'.  So the Japanese see no need to change name to show a greater degree of luxury.  It's the reason there is no Acura, Infinity or Lexus in Japan.  When the Japanese hear 'Honda', they know it's the best since Honda is Japanese.  No need to add further emphasis with a different name. I’m just giving you the ethos here, not saying that it’s right or wrong. 

Image
·
Aurelian

I like it. It's thought provoking. Thanks for writing this.

I think that it is clear that the Japanese are imitating European styles in their branding. You see them as German, perhaps because you are German.

Citizen was founded by a Swiss/Japanese partnership.  The symbol of the Canton of Geneva:

Coat of arms of Geneva

There is the Citizen chicken, hiding in plain sight. Citizen, I think, is borrowing "Swiss-ness" for branding.

Here is a little quote from Orient: "Jun Watanabe, president of Orient Watch Company, he stated that the lion on the left symbolizes the company, while the second lion symbolizes their dealers and partners. The crown above the shield symbolizes the customer. The entire emblem therefore represents Orient’s respect for its customers and the desire to provide them with quality products." A longer discussion can be found here.

I agree that they are borrowing a heraldic tradition. Just a very vague one.

And I have no idea what Grand Seiko is doing.

Two further thoughts:

This is the symbol of the youth soccer (football) league that I joined when I was 7 or 8.

Phoenix Sport Club | Feasterville PA

They used to shout at us in German. I am two generations removed from understanding what they were saying.

And lastly, this Christmas season, remember the weirdness that is Christmas in Japan:

Japanese Candy For Christmas? How About KFC?! - TokyoTreat Blog

If they want to imitate Medieval European symbols, I say have at it.

You nailed it that Xmas is a season of weirdness.   Random use of religious symbols and Santa, sometimes together.  And you can’t get KFC unless you pre order months ahead.  Yes, KFC 😂.  We found a workaround using mosburger  

Image

But pretty much only guys trying to land a girl buy gifts or celebrate.  No holiday or time off school.  

Big holiday starts around 28th is new years holiday with all the big family gatherings happening then. 

Image
·
Fieldwalker

You nailed it that Xmas is a season of weirdness.   Random use of religious symbols and Santa, sometimes together.  And you can’t get KFC unless you pre order months ahead.  Yes, KFC 😂.  We found a workaround using mosburger  

Image

But pretty much only guys trying to land a girl buy gifts or celebrate.  No holiday or time off school.  

Big holiday starts around 28th is new years holiday with all the big family gatherings happening then. 

Image

My daughter is into all things Japan. She shows us these videos. She and I are trying to convince my wife to try KFC and strawberry cake this year. I love how they decorate their cities for Christmas. We are losing that here.

·

Non-Japanese living in Japan for 7 years now.

Really interesting take. Many foreigners find the unique identity of Japan very appealing, but I think for many Japanese people, old "European"-- I'm using the term very loosely -- exudes more class and refinement.

Take for example the countless fashion boutiques, patisseries, and architectural design with French names, German minimalism and "old European" aesthetic written all over them. Try watching awards shows in Japan and look at how they dress. 

I think your article strikes at the heart of a form of cultural insecurity Japan has vis-a-vis the West (here oversimplified as "European").

I would also like to see some originality from Japan in terms of branding, but I can't imagine Grand Seiko using katakana on their dials and cases, or Seiko using the Kanji 精巧 for their marketing.

Great article and got me really thinking. 

·
nomoneynowatches

Non-Japanese living in Japan for 7 years now.

Really interesting take. Many foreigners find the unique identity of Japan very appealing, but I think for many Japanese people, old "European"-- I'm using the term very loosely -- exudes more class and refinement.

Take for example the countless fashion boutiques, patisseries, and architectural design with French names, German minimalism and "old European" aesthetic written all over them. Try watching awards shows in Japan and look at how they dress. 

I think your article strikes at the heart of a form of cultural insecurity Japan has vis-a-vis the West (here oversimplified as "European").

I would also like to see some originality from Japan in terms of branding, but I can't imagine Grand Seiko using katakana on their dials and cases, or Seiko using the Kanji 精巧 for their marketing.

Great article and got me really thinking. 

Thanks for your comment.

I lived in Korea for a while. It's kind of a similiar situation even they had not the the historical boundage as Japan and Germany but the imagination of "holy Europe".

Even one of the biggest Companies "Lotte" (founded in Tokyo by Korean, HQ in Seoul) was named by an Novell of Johan Wolfgang von Goethe and relates to "Charlotte".

But in Japan I witnessed a much higher obsession in almost everything: Architecture, Literature, Economy, Politic, Artwork.

I even wonder that the Japanese Domestic Market watches are all written in latin letters on their dials. I never understood why they don't use japanese letters even for their own people. It's like Junghans selling a domestic market watches in germany with japanese writings only.

Anyway. I hope we can get in future more "Japanese Authenticy". At least by naming their watches, instead of NHK-1234567-XY5 😊. I think people want that.

Even western people love to call their models Orient Kamasu , Citizen Tsuyosa or Seiko Ginza.

Cheers to Japan.

·

Thank you for this great post and for the many interesting comments that make it even better! 

It's a very interesting topic. I'll add that even the JDM brands only intended for distribution in Japan like Citizen's Reguno use western characters in their names / logos, which reinforces the comments around what Japanese people as premium branding. 

It will be interesting to see how newer Japanese brands like Hajime Asaoka, Knot, Kuoe, Kurono, Minase, and Mirco position their branding. The Franck Muller knock-off brand, Frank Miura, seems to celebrate Japanese language. 

Thanks again for the great post and comments 

·

@Don_Moreno checa esto

·
Walther

Didnt europeans try really hard to influence Japan during their semi revolutionary periods following the rule of Daimyos and Shogunate at the end of the Edo period? 
if I recall many european companies predominantly weapons manufacturers were quick to try and be the primary armorers of Japans newly forming central government controlled modern military. And many if not all of these companies had coats of arms emblems. 
it only makes sense that the influence did not stop at what weapons to use but also how to market them - with a nicely designed emblem.

i find it almost immature for any european to judge Japanese coat of arms/imperial like emblems when it was europeans who salivated at the opportunity to influence the Japanese at the end of the Edo period. Humans really do have some kind of memory issue. 
 

I find this particular topic a little frustrating due to the fact that if Japan tries to protect its culture from external influence they are labeled as isolationist, racist, etc.. but when they try and diversify their culture and include facets of other cultures they are labeled as something negative as well and of course ppl will complain no matter the direction they take. Its a lose lose for them. :(

☝️this exactly. As a proud South East Asian, it seems this kind of ethos just bring about the mentality of West is better than East. But we always see the West “taking inspiration” from Eastern culture, from numbers, design, engineering, music, food, spices etc

·
Edge168n

I was literally going to say this.  

@Uhrologe I think you're thinking of using something like this.

Image

I suspect the Japanese domestic audience wouldn't accept using an imperial symbol with 800 years of history for a company that's less than 150 years old.  I suspect it's easier to use a random German heraldic symbol because the original intended audience doesn't have any associations with it.

And while I'm not Japanese, I do wonder if using those sorts of easily recognized symbols for explicitly commercial purposes might be considered in bad taste.

It wouldn't surprise me if the use of the chrysanthemum logo for any purpose outside of the Japanese imperial family is illegal in Japan.

·

Cultural appreciation lol

·

Great subject and wonderful writing. I think it’s a shame that everyone has stolen the stick art of the caveman and made it their own. I mean come on people that bird is clearly from cave walls all over the world. For shame…

😂