Poll: 904L vs. 316L - Does it matter to you?

Hey Y'all - Some of you may know that we recently launched our Strat-o-timer GMT and the response has been incredible. The feedback we received was that you wanted to see a dive watch based on this style. So I'm back at it! As I sat here jotting down some notes, I honestly got a bit bored writing the same thing down that every other diver has out there. Ceramic bezel, 120 click, etc. Of course, it's a tool watch so these specs are quite standard and there is nothing wrong with it, but I began to think what added value can be put into the watch? That's when I thought about 904L steel. We all know Rolex uses this material. It's undoubtedly a higher quality steel, but it's also significantly more expensive than 316. We all know that 316 is more than enough for most of our daily needs, so is it really necessary? Probably not. However, neither is 300m of water resistance, but we love it if it has it. So I'd love to turn to you guys and ask, would you pay a couple of hundred dollars more for a 904 steel dive watch?
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If it's true that 904 produces a higher shine, I'd rather not have it. I usually prefer brushed toolish looking steel.

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gbelleh

If it's true that 904 produces a higher shine, I'd rather not have it. I usually prefer brushed toolish looking steel.

From what I've seen with my two eyes, the difference is marginal in appearance. You really have to be looking to see that the steel is slightly brighter and whiter. As for the finishing on this dive, it's definitely going to be an all over brush on top of lugs and bracelet! Thanks for the feedback

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If the watch is going to have a brushed finish, there is no need for 904.  

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Materials mean a lot to certain buyers.  Putting out a design in 904 steel would certainly set your product apart from the rest, and avoid the watch meme of marketing 316L steel as a feature.

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DLove61

If the watch is going to have a brushed finish, there is no need for 904.  

There is if you want it's better corrosion resistants.

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Droptuned83

There is if you want it's better corrosion resistants.

316 is fine for a diver exposed to salt water.  Now, I seriously doubt you are going to expose your watch to highly corrosive chemicals.

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If you really like 904L steel, you can buy a watch from Wise.

My wife can't wear it due to allergy but can wear Omega with 316L

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WISE from Thailand uses 904L and delivers great dive watches at around the $600 price point so it is definitely able to be done economically.

The 904L looks fantastic. I'm not hard on my watches so I don't really know if it scratches any easier than 316L.

The most amazing stainless steel though is the new composition by Chopard for the Alpine Eagle they have finished the steel to the lustre of white gold even better than anything produced by Grand Seiko.

Here are a few wrist shots for fun of the WISE references...

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Here is one of the Chopard Alpine Eagle...

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DLove61

316 is fine for a diver exposed to salt water.  Now, I seriously doubt you are going to expose your watch to highly corrosive chemicals.

Bit salty 😆 some people like to have all bases covered. As a car enthusiast  I'm surprised you don't recognise that.

Over engineered and over specified, nothing wrong with that. 

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I am all for the best materials possible, which is why I went 904. That said, 99.999% of folks won’t know or care and will simply look at price. If I were producing it to be competitive, this would be an area I’d save on, especially with a launch product. If the price creeps too high, folks will immediately begin playing the comparison game.

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If it ain’t broke! Nothing wrong with 316. If you want to stand out then it’s the dial, hands, strap, case (providing the movement is bang on)

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Droptuned83

Bit salty 😆 some people like to have all bases covered. As a car enthusiast  I'm surprised you don't recognise that.

Over engineered and over specified, nothing wrong with that. 

Or they are seduced by the idea that it is the same material a certain brand what begins with an “R” uses.  Either way, it is not necessary.

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I am in the overbuilt divewatch camp. Sinn Tegumented U Boat steel is a selling point. I also believe all dive watches should meet ISO certified specs (including dial lamination) 300 meters of water resistance should be a minimum.  Why is everyone happy with a spec hit in the 60's? METAS, TESTAF, ISO, Gauss hit them all charge accordingly and be the watch everyone talks about versus an also ran. ONE other item... have a killer bracelet and clasp combo. The clasp is usually super sub par on many dive watches. Grand Seiko can do better than a Titanium version of their MM300 clasp. I've owned, or own, both and they can do better. Titanium.... now there's a metal that is always interesting for a dive watch.... pardon my ramble 

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DLove61

Or they are seduced by the idea that it is the same material a certain brand what begins with an “R” uses.  Either way, it is not necessary.

As are lots of things in life and watch's but people like choices I understand.

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Assuming you're going to use a "stainless" material such as steel or titanium, then give me surface hardness over ANYTHING else. Most other material properties are a distant second. I just want it to be resistant to oxidation and scratches.  It's nice if it can be polished as well as brushed, but the key thing (for me) is that it's tough.

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TimeToDesign

A second comment regarding titanium. Does the light weight nature of the material not bother you?

Good question on the titanium. I have a large number of titanium watches. I think the titanium, if handled correctly, does not lead to a ‘cheap’ feeling, but rather a good balance on the wrist. This is true of my Omega 300 titanium diver and my Grand Seiko Winter (not a dive, of course). What I do find with titanium in my less expensive watches is that the bracelet links can feel very sharp edged and somewhat uncomfortable. This is true to a small degree with my Zodiac Seawolf and to a much larger degree with my Ball Trainmaster. I’m guessing a smooth finish on titanium is expensive, so maybe a GS finish is not possible at a good price point, but I’d say the Zodiac is at the upper limit of acceptability. I hope this detail helps. Good luck in your design choices. I have a an interest in good smaller houses. I’ve recently added  Yema, Vario and Towson Watch Company pieces to my collection and just found your site from your posts. It looks like you’ve made a number of watches that are worth consideration. Thanks

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ckim4watches

This is a great article about the difference.  They politely refute all the marketing BS from Rolex: https://www.keepthetime.com/blog/316l-vs-904l-stainless-steel-in-watches/

Great article! Always love the Rolex myth-busting. Very helpful to get a detailed description of the difference between the types of steel. Learned something today!

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Here is what I found in a Forbes article:

"Lucent Steel A223 alloy is created by re-smelting steel at higher temperatures and with special ingredients that make the final hypoallergenic steel stronger and harder than regular steel (223 Vickers strength) and therefore 50 percent more resistant to scratching. The Lucent Steel A223 also has a lustrous finish thanks to a unique crystal structure that occurs in the re-smelting process.  Because there are fewer impurities in the steel it offers a sheen that brilliantly reflects light."

"Because of the hardness of the material, the manufacturing time involved in creating cases and bracelets is longer than when using conventional steel. Additionally, there is more wear on the tools used for the machining. These factors, combined with the lengthy research and development, and the final harder and stronger shimmering aesthetic naturally make the material more expensive than regular steel."

Here is the link to the marketing blah-blah on Chopard's website:

Alpine Eagle Luxury Watch: Lucent Steel A223 | Chopard®

I have found it to be incredibly comfortable to wear and you just have to see it in the metal to appreciate the sheen that it provides. Truly beautiful.

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Robcollects

Good question on the titanium. I have a large number of titanium watches. I think the titanium, if handled correctly, does not lead to a ‘cheap’ feeling, but rather a good balance on the wrist. This is true of my Omega 300 titanium diver and my Grand Seiko Winter (not a dive, of course). What I do find with titanium in my less expensive watches is that the bracelet links can feel very sharp edged and somewhat uncomfortable. This is true to a small degree with my Zodiac Seawolf and to a much larger degree with my Ball Trainmaster. I’m guessing a smooth finish on titanium is expensive, so maybe a GS finish is not possible at a good price point, but I’d say the Zodiac is at the upper limit of acceptability. I hope this detail helps. Good luck in your design choices. I have a an interest in good smaller houses. I’ve recently added  Yema, Vario and Towson Watch Company pieces to my collection and just found your site from your posts. It looks like you’ve made a number of watches that are worth consideration. Thanks

This is really great insight. Thanks for that! Understanding things like this is part of why I'm on here. Yea I've handled the newer Zodiac titanium and the lightweight is something to get used to, but there is no denying that it looks crisp and high end. I do like the natural grey color that Ti gives as well. Thank you for the kind words and great to hear your support for us smaller brands.

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ckim4watches

I would love a grade 5 titanium. As I type this, I'm wearing a grade 5 watch and it feels great.  Based on my personal research, I prefer it over grade 2.  Which is what I commonly see. 

This is really great to know. Thank you!

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DLove61

No.  Because I do a great deal of boating and recreational diving and the minimum rating for recreational diving is 200m.

Makes sense! Thanks for your reply. Helps me out!

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TimeToDesign

I love this take. Go all the way, if possible. The minute you start playing the "is it necessary" game, then price becomes the driving force of those decisions. 

I almost put Titanium in the poll, but wanted to keep it simple. Grade 5 Titanium is an intriguing material and I know some brands are selling them well. 

I actually gave away an SBGA463 because it was just to bling . Zaratsu looked incredible on my Snowflake but a dive watch bracelet that shines like a Day/Date 18K Rolex...

Manufacturers come out with new models at higher prices every year.  Example the new Evolution 9 SLGA015. Ok, more accurate Spring Drive tech and less Zaratsu. A 4K increase for the same water resistance and a waves in your dial? Nope. Provide more and charge more . Supercars, sniper rifles, jetboats, watches , aircraft- very few users have the ability to maximize the tech of any of these products but they pay for it. Who drives flat out 200mph? That ride from zero to 120, or 120 to 150 mph, is so fun with a 200mph super car. No one buying a Speedie today is scheduled to do an EVA in space on Saturday. How many of the Blue Angels wear an IWC Topgun in flight? Anyone picking up a Submariner this afternoon running an op on the Mekong Delta this evening? Nope to all that. Extreme tolerance means reliability & long product life IMO. If we are going to pay why not pay for overbuilt? I've never heard a new homeowner say they wish they had paid more for shitty construction. I digress...

How about you overbuild a killer dive watch in steel & come out with a Titanium piece after everyone has your killer steel piece? Lots of WC folks would buy both 

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I know right...I love Squale watches but the lume is pitiful. How can they not get it right when Aliexpress brands can do it for such an inexpensive amount. That's the most disappointing thing about Squale watches...the bloody lume.

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Another comment I would add. I recently visited an Omega shop and tried the no timer to die seamaster. It's grade 2 titanium. 

My overall impression was that it did feel a bit cheap. The lighter weight was part of it, but also the feel in the hand. I agree with an earlier comment that the bracelet feels sharp edged. The surface was rather rough to the touch. Yet felt soft at the same time. That was another factor. 

But when I feel my grade 5 titanium watch, it's much closer to stainless steel. I don't feel any loss of tactile sensation. The surface feels hard. I understand grade 5 has more other metals in the mix. Thus, it's harder. I like that. 

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TimeJunkie

I actually gave away an SBGA463 because it was just to bling . Zaratsu looked incredible on my Snowflake but a dive watch bracelet that shines like a Day/Date 18K Rolex...

Manufacturers come out with new models at higher prices every year.  Example the new Evolution 9 SLGA015. Ok, more accurate Spring Drive tech and less Zaratsu. A 4K increase for the same water resistance and a waves in your dial? Nope. Provide more and charge more . Supercars, sniper rifles, jetboats, watches , aircraft- very few users have the ability to maximize the tech of any of these products but they pay for it. Who drives flat out 200mph? That ride from zero to 120, or 120 to 150 mph, is so fun with a 200mph super car. No one buying a Speedie today is scheduled to do an EVA in space on Saturday. How many of the Blue Angels wear an IWC Topgun in flight? Anyone picking up a Submariner this afternoon running an op on the Mekong Delta this evening? Nope to all that. Extreme tolerance means reliability & long product life IMO. If we are going to pay why not pay for overbuilt? I've never heard a new homeowner say they wish they had paid more for shitty construction. I digress...

How about you overbuild a killer dive watch in steel & come out with a Titanium piece after everyone has your killer steel piece? Lots of WC folks would buy both 

I am with you on all fronts. I appreciate your input!

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I work in a chemistry lab. 904L steel offers additional protection against the chemicals I’m exposed to on a daily basis. Ball Engineer III is my real world tool watch, and I bought it specifically because it was made of 904L steel. 

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I intended to raise the potential for nickel allergy and it's good that you mentioned it.

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The only watch I own with 904 is my Rolex OP. Apparently it has a greater luster, but is softer. To be honest it looks just the same to me, I just have to be more careful

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904L if it is softer might also feel a bit more comfortable on the wrist. I think it's a good idea to make watches with 904L. It's rare, so those who want it will be drawn to your brand. Those who don't want to pay high prices for it can go for your 316L options and you can adjust inventory of each as you find out the demand in the market for each.

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Not sure how I missed this post...interesting read...titanium and 300M seem to get people's attention...excited to see your design