My thoughts on Tudor, and other considerations about W&W2022

A lot has been said already about Watches and Wonders 2022, but this is the internet, and here is my unwanted opinion. I would like to focus on Tudor, but at the end of this post, I will also spend a few words about two of the brands that performed the best at this W&W in my opinion: Cartier and Oris. Honorable mentions also go to Vacheron Constantin, Grand Seiko, and Montblanc, who are all working well.

Before getting to the Tudor content you have been promised, a few caveats: I am not a professional watch content creator. I am simply an enthusiast who prefers to remain anonymous for professional reasons, someone who enjoys watches and wants to share his opinion in this mare magnum of watches social media that end up recycling pre-made opinions in most cases. So the details, pictures, and common knowledge information that are easily found on other pages will not be repeated here. I will tag professional content creators, journalists, and bloggers you can follow for data, photos, and footage.

The reason why I would like to focus on Tudor is that I believe it is a maison that draws a lot of interest from a wide range of audiences. Placing itself at the 2000-5000 EUR price point, it is something that anyone can aspire to as a first luxury watch, but also veterans in many cases can enjoy as a beater or fun watch, also thanks to its heritage and noble horological DNA.

In my view, Tudor has been a disappointment at Geneve this year. And it should be a disappointment even if you are not interested in the watches they offer, but you care about the watchmaking industry. Here is why.

I will not talk too much about the watches, but if anyone had any doubt about Tudor's mid-term strategy, now it should be crystal clear. Its promotional video says it all. It starts by saying that it should not be an issue if "someone has been there before", and that we can still enjoy an experience, a reference to the Black Bay Pro. A series of unremarkable general mentions of millennial-friendly topics such as the environment, cute pets, etc. follows, until the end when the Chrono is somehow associated with Mars, which is way cooler than the moon. 

Now, Tudor obviously has been capitalizing on its links to Rolex, on the impossibility to get sought-after pieces coupled with rising prices, and on a relentless and capable marketing department with deep pockets and decennial experience. To be sure, marketing is important, and telling stories is one of the joys of watchmaking. Yet, to what extent? Is a legal affiliation with another company enough to make those stories as fascinating? If the cosmetics brand Sephora or the German sandals manufacturer Birkenstock made watches, could they really spin the marketing narrative in a way that would make it look like they have some sort of brand equity thanks to the fact that they're owned by LVMH, hence somehow connected to Zenith, the prestigious watchmaker? Ok, this is an overstatement, Tudor has indeed heritage. But they're willingly - and maybe lazily, or cleverly - capitalizing on what already works. Rolex designs. Nothing new right? It is good to remind it, however, since comparisons between the Rolex 1655 and the Black Bay Pro are already plenty. "An Explorer II for less than 4k". Yes, but with 15mm of thickness, a movement that is no more manufacture-level than Longines' contemporary calibers (a company owned by, but distinct from, the watchmaker, makes exclusive movements for said watchmaker as well as other ones), and its non-proactive design, that watch, as well as the other Tudor releases, are saying one thing: for years to come, expect that to be the norm. Tudor will be the go-to brand for those who can't get a Rolex. If there was a debate about this until last week, it is now apparent. 

I am exaggerating, there is more to it. And it's true. It's more complex than that, and anyway, it should not be a problem. I worry, however, about 10 years from now, when Tudors will get sold en masse, when the two siblings of the Hans Wilsdorf Foundation will have pushed prices of the other maisons too high, when other brands, will struggle to survive.

Let's take the aforementioned Cartier and Oris. Cartier once again showed Rolex how it's done. Innovating, without losing your heritage and traits. A variety of prices, pieces, and watchmaking skills exhibition that's unparalleled as of now. Rolex will be king of sales for many more years, but if one can dethrone it, that will be Cartier. And Oris. In perfect old Rolex fashion, they introduced one watch, in only 3 variations. Less is more, and not giving a choice actually works better apparently. More importantly, they did not have to manufacture a dubious historical event to claim some sort of heritage, or worse, to hint at an indirect relationship with said events. No story here. Just a kickass watch, with its own identity and its own manufacture movement (for real, in this case), for the same price of the Rolex 1655 homag... of the Black Bay Pro. 

I hope you don't take this post as a long rant about Tudor's new models per se. I wish we could broaden the spectrum of analysis and ask ourselves, as enthusiasts, who do we want to define the market, what kind of brand, and watch, has what kind of identity, and if at all, which of those identities can we relate to. Because it may sound redundant, alarmist, silly, at a time of perfect health of the industry, but watchmaking is a fragile reality, that could suffer both from a lack of demand (such as in the past) but also from an uncontrolled - and maybe unpondered - surge in demand. It takes years to build up and much less to fall. 

"In the end they're just watches", a friend of mine - with an outstanding collection nonetheless - often says. He is right. Yet, if I were in the market for a 4k watch this summer, I would rather reward innovators, and enjoy a unique piece, than get yet another Tudor on the streets. And if you read until here, I don't want you to get me wrong. Tudor is working remarkably. Their marketing is flawless, and if I were in any positions to make decisions there I would not change a thing. Their watches are still nice for the price, but I'm afraid a polarisation of the market may not be good for the industry. I'm afraid that chasing the Rolex we can't get, we will end up killing the maisons we could have got, and regret having almost the watch we wanted rather than something that could've been an unexpected surprise. 

Reply
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Agreed on many points. Too many people sleep on Cartier, but at the same time I understand because the exciting releases by Cartier are usually unobtainable.

I believe Tudor still has some interesting watches in their line up (1926, Royal, Heritage Chrono), it's just that their most popular watches will always be homages to Rolex. Gotta play to their strengths, especially when the tide is in.

I also believe the interest in watches by the general public is going to dwindle soon, the MoonSwatch felt like a jumping the shark moment to me. We'll see.

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nytime

Agreed on many points. Too many people sleep on Cartier, but at the same time I understand because the exciting releases by Cartier are usually unobtainable.

I believe Tudor still has some interesting watches in their line up (1926, Royal, Heritage Chrono), it's just that their most popular watches will always be homages to Rolex. Gotta play to their strengths, especially when the tide is in.

I also believe the interest in watches by the general public is going to dwindle soon, the MoonSwatch felt like a jumping the shark moment to me. We'll see.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. It's a pity, because as you say Tudor does indeed have potential with some of its heritage designs. True for Cartier, although I believe it is one of the watchmakers that can span the widest in terms of price - and it does so by maintaining consistent quality, for the price. 

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I actually prefer most Tudors to most Rolexes. And not because of the price.

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Cosmodoc

I actually prefer most Tudors to most Rolexes. And not because of the price.

Why if I may ask? Did you try them on your wrist? I mean, the Rolex models too. 

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Right. I like the "same old" too sometimes, but Tudor looks like the same, but it's hardly the same. It becomes apparent when you put both of them on your wrist. 

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Romaediem

Why if I may ask? Did you try them on your wrist? I mean, the Rolex models too. 

I did not, but I prefer the Tudor designs by far

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Interesting reading your thoughts - I too am utterly impressed by Cartier right now

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As an admirer of both Oris and Cartier, this post resonates with me - even though my initial reaction to the Black Bay Explorer II has been quite positive. But still, I agree with your overall reasoning. One can win a battle, while at the same time showing worrying tactical flaws within the long term strategy.

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Not much to add to the above except, I really do agree. I liked the BBP a lot - to the point where, when the first live images came out, I was drafting a text to my AD to put me on the list for one. I held off, and I'm glad I did. It's a great watch and nothing against it, but, I feel like I just have a mental block. I feel like every time I look down at it I'd think damn, that's beautiful...but what if I had just saved up a bit longer for an "actual" explorer. Now I know that's not a fair comparison and getting an exp2 at retail is probably impossible at this point. But just knowing that there's a sleeker, slimmer, nicer version of that watch out there hampers my ability to connect with it to some degree. 

I say all this as an owner of a BB36. Which, to whatever part of my lizard brain that prevents me from wholeheartedly loving BBP, is jussst different enough from an explorer 1 or OP to consider them distinct entities. But I guess this is all part of what watch collecting is about, huh. You learn a little bit about yourself along the process.

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It has been an all too common occurrence for Tudor to disappoint at the annual watch shows (remember the P01 fiasco?). I firmly believe that Tudor have the capability of thinning out the GMT movement but refuse to in order to differentiate from the Rolex GMT/Explorer II. Jack Forester brought this theory up on a recent Hodinkee podcast and I tend to believe him.

Purely speculative but could it be because they do not want Tudor to be TOO desirable?  For instance, you buy a Tudor to get into the entry level luxury, deal with its quirks, and then eventually make the upgrade to the "perfect" Rolex?

In my biased head, the closest Tudor to perfection was the original BB58 and Tudor have not captured that same magic since.  Even the next blue variant was the dullest blue they could find. Then of course the GMT, Chrono, and Pelagos have their quirks as well, in addition to the  weird silver 58 (which looks awesome but tarnishes) and the solid gold 58.

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Kaedama

Not much to add to the above except, I really do agree. I liked the BBP a lot - to the point where, when the first live images came out, I was drafting a text to my AD to put me on the list for one. I held off, and I'm glad I did. It's a great watch and nothing against it, but, I feel like I just have a mental block. I feel like every time I look down at it I'd think damn, that's beautiful...but what if I had just saved up a bit longer for an "actual" explorer. Now I know that's not a fair comparison and getting an exp2 at retail is probably impossible at this point. But just knowing that there's a sleeker, slimmer, nicer version of that watch out there hampers my ability to connect with it to some degree. 

I say all this as an owner of a BB36. Which, to whatever part of my lizard brain that prevents me from wholeheartedly loving BBP, is jussst different enough from an explorer 1 or OP to consider them distinct entities. But I guess this is all part of what watch collecting is about, huh. You learn a little bit about yourself along the process.

Absolutely. The Black Bay Pro is a great watch, if you don't know of the Explorer II existence. 

As for the bb36, I believe it is still the best model in the Tudor lineup. If I really had to get one, I'd get that one. Yes, the indices, the oyster case and other traits are paying homage to other watches, but the overall package feels compelling enough to be considered "its own watch". In that case, I even understand - although personally not agree with - those who say they would even prefer it to an OP, an explorer or a sub. If you actually enjoy those indices, and that case and size, it is the only option. It has an identity. At that point, taste is subjective, totally. 

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SaintWoody

It has been an all too common occurrence for Tudor to disappoint at the annual watch shows (remember the P01 fiasco?). I firmly believe that Tudor have the capability of thinning out the GMT movement but refuse to in order to differentiate from the Rolex GMT/Explorer II. Jack Forester brought this theory up on a recent Hodinkee podcast and I tend to believe him.

Purely speculative but could it be because they do not want Tudor to be TOO desirable?  For instance, you buy a Tudor to get into the entry level luxury, deal with its quirks, and then eventually make the upgrade to the "perfect" Rolex?

In my biased head, the closest Tudor to perfection was the original BB58 and Tudor have not captured that same magic since.  Even the next blue variant was the dullest blue they could find. Then of course the GMT, Chrono, and Pelagos have their quirks as well, in addition to the  weird silver 58 (which looks awesome but tarnishes) and the solid gold 58.

Well, we have to remember that Tudor is not properly a movement manufacture, but surely they could make their watches and movements better if they want to (I mean they could do anything they want to really, money is not a problem at Rolex).

I and other collectors in my circles have thought about this too. And it is true. Despite what some say, e.g. @Cosmodoc in this post comments, if you know both watches (pictures are not a reliable way to evaluate watches) the Tudors are a strictly worse copy of their Rolex counterparts. Of course, we all have our opinions, and marketing, brand perception etc. also play a role, but yes, it looks like they don't want to create something that could actually be a reasonable substitute for less money.

In my view it would be better if they did that. 

  1. People would want Rolex models anyway just for the name, the same way so many want Tudors because the snowflake hands are video and photogenic, the Brand is great at marketing, they're affordable hence everywhere, etc. Rolex would still have more mediatic power, by far.
  2.  Rolex watches would still undoubtedly also be preferred by enthusiasts for their movements, a completely different category from Tudor.

Yet, it looks like they want to make our choice even easier by keeping their weirdly proportioned hands, lego brick-like case, odd ration on the oyster case, bracelets hard to operate (albeit well built), etc. 

Wasn't aware of the fact that Jack said this but he's probably right.

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Romaediem

Well, we have to remember that Tudor is not properly a movement manufacture, but surely they could make their watches and movements better if they want to (I mean they could do anything they want to really, money is not a problem at Rolex).

I and other collectors in my circles have thought about this too. And it is true. Despite what some say, e.g. @Cosmodoc in this post comments, if you know both watches (pictures are not a reliable way to evaluate watches) the Tudors are a strictly worse copy of their Rolex counterparts. Of course, we all have our opinions, and marketing, brand perception etc. also play a role, but yes, it looks like they don't want to create something that could actually be a reasonable substitute for less money.

In my view it would be better if they did that. 

  1. People would want Rolex models anyway just for the name, the same way so many want Tudors because the snowflake hands are video and photogenic, the Brand is great at marketing, they're affordable hence everywhere, etc. Rolex would still have more mediatic power, by far.
  2.  Rolex watches would still undoubtedly also be preferred by enthusiasts for their movements, a completely different category from Tudor.

Yet, it looks like they want to make our choice even easier by keeping their weirdly proportioned hands, lego brick-like case, odd ration on the oyster case, bracelets hard to operate (albeit well built), etc. 

Wasn't aware of the fact that Jack said this but he's probably right.

You hit the nail on the head.  Maybe Rolex/Tudor know something we don't and are projecting so far ahead in the future with their plans that we cannot comprehend. Even then, they could give the Tudor people what they want in terms of quality/specs and it would not impact the Rolex brand because like you said, it's a different, proven, and much preferred product for enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts. 

As the owner of a BB58, I would LOVE to own a Yachtmaster or GMT Master II one day.