Hot Take: Quality and Price Don’t Equate

Went into my AD today to pick up my fiancées wedding ring. My AD says he wants to show me what someone dropped off today. He pulls this Starbucks out. While the quality is extremely well built and smooth bezel action, it just did not feel as good as the 2004 Peter Blake Seamaster I walked in the door with. Iv tried on other Subs before and I keep coming away with the same conclusion: these watches should be not be priced for what they are. These should be 4-6k watches at most. The brand is the best at what they do: market. But I 100% do not feel that watches like the Starbucks Sub should be priced at 11k retail. All you’re doing is paying for a name and the status symbol at that point. I honestly can’t argue with Rolex though. When you’re the king (no pun intended) of the watch market by a considerable amount, why would you try to improve on the quality of your product if you make 5 billion more (according to 2021/2 data) than second place? I think there’s better watch companies you can be giving your money to with better quality and lower prices . Just my two cents.

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Yup, having no competition equals lackluster quality.

We should all be so lucky to be in a similar position.

All I can do is tip my cap and buy what I can afford.

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Yeah, we all know Rolexes are overpriced but are they wrong? I mean sure, Rolex charges $10k for a watch that should maybe cost $6k. But then again, it's the only watch in the world you can mention to anybody in the world and they'll know what you're talking about. Even I, a person who's a little embarrassed when somebody notices my DJ feels a little something for the fact that this is the best know, most respected watch brand in the world. And that's got to be worth something.

And what about Omega and everybody else? I guarantee Omega charges every single penny they think they can for their name. It just turns out that amount isn't as much as Rolex. Basically, everybody does it to whatever degree they can.

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Demand and hype sets the price, especially in luxury goods. Rolex or AP or Omega etc is a statement you are trying to make.

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IMO Rolex is the best marketing company in the watch game. No doubt they kill it with product placement and brand recognition. The Coronet is everywhere in expensive sports . Not sure if auto racing is expensive: go racing and find out. Playing tennis or golf at top tier professional levels is a giant monetary commitment your parents needed to make for you decades ago. Sailing : separates the millionaires from the billionaires. Rolex sponsors all of it.

Example Why sponsor a lowly F1 car when you can just sponsor toe whole damned race?

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You don't need to spend anywhere near Rolex money to run into people paying for a name, more than the product itself. In the watch community Seiko is the classic example, look at the praise heaped on the SKX to this day. It's an objectively inferior watch to many others on the market, but the name on the dial makes it special to some.

Going even less expensive, you have Timex, the other watch brand that everybody knows. Timex charges more for their watches than Casio, likely in part because they know people will buy the name.

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If you really want a respected Swiss brand (but why) then have you Tissot, who especially make Quartz watches for around 522 euro with delicious designs...

Note that all the others Swiss brand RESERVE or spare any really fine design to their most expensive models, which then automatically become incredible expensive, compared to Tissot...

But you if you don't need Swiss Made, can easy buy 3 as good looking Fossil or Invicta (who also use really delicious designs, without demanding premium prices) as one single Tissot...

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Okay that last Automatic 600m diver cost 1111 euro, but that is still a Swiss Made bargain!

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Dealer offered you a sub and you turned it down? I’m not sure I would have been so strong, but kudos to you for making that decision.

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They are priced at exactly what the customers are willing to pay for, obviously you are not one of them.

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You did good. Break the cycle! IMO Omega does make better watches and build quality.

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Brand is king because consumers buy on emotion. Is Rolex the best build quality watch, no. But the same can be said for other products like iPhones and Nike shoes. Some consumers don’t care about brand but I would say the majority do.

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“Trade you a Rolex for your rifle “ that unfortunately may become a common statement in the near future. More likely to be able to make a trade with a watch than cash though to be fair.

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I'm a massive Rolex fan own several,do I think they are overpriced compared to some brands, Christopher ward for example,yes ,they both do exactly the same but compared to Richard mille they are a bargain,the thing about prices is like everything in life the better the advertisement and brand recognition the more you can charge

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They only charge what people are prepared to pay! Overpriced? Certainly. Omega are increasing their prices in the same manner.

Tudor now cover the bases that Rolex used to a good few years ago. They do offer value, in relative terms!

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Let me play the advocate of the devil here…

Rolex’s quality is not average. And suggestions that it is below par are not valid. Rolex produces about 1 million pieces a year (and counting), at this level their quality is simply number one. The consistency of their quality is unparalleled (again considering the volume). Their return rate (after sale) is lower than any of their competitors. Rolex watches are famous for working perfectly fine after 10, 15 years (some say 20 years!) without maintenance. Which other brand can claim that?

Why are they priced higher than Omega? I would agree that Omega offers overall comparable quality, but the Rolex Movement is better, or at least it is more accurate (which is a key feature of any movement) -2/+2 for Rolex , 0/+5 for Omega. That’s one more reason why Rolex is more expensive. And it’s not just marketing.

And yes, there is legacy and heritage, bear in mind that Rolex’s legitimacy in this area is also extremely strong. Technically Blancpain launched the 50 fathoms before the ‘sub’ , but the ‘sub’ ==defines== the diving watch, to the point where all other diving watches somehow seem to derive from it.

For the record I don’t own a sub and I don’t intend to acquire one.

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I feel the same way about Rolex. I've tried on an OP and Datejust before and I walked away feeling very underwhelmed. Funny enough, the first time I saw a Sub in person, I was wearing my Seiko SLA057. I came away with that same underwhelmed feeling and was surprised at how much nicer my SLA057 was in comparison.

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You're free to think what you will.

The SKX has an outdated movement, with a cheap crystal, and cheaper bracelet. It's not a bad watch, particularly back in the 90s when it came out, but 30 years on it's inferior to the offerings from Citizen, San Martin, Orient, etc..

Also, the SKX was available on the grey market well below RRP because ADs couldn't sell them at retail in the volume Seiko desired.

Lastly, I also mentioned Timex. I happen to be a massive Timex fanboy, but I'm also self aware enough to recognize that I am willing to pay more for the name that I like.

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KristianG

You're free to think what you will.

The SKX has an outdated movement, with a cheap crystal, and cheaper bracelet. It's not a bad watch, particularly back in the 90s when it came out, but 30 years on it's inferior to the offerings from Citizen, San Martin, Orient, etc..

Also, the SKX was available on the grey market well below RRP because ADs couldn't sell them at retail in the volume Seiko desired.

Lastly, I also mentioned Timex. I happen to be a massive Timex fanboy, but I'm also self aware enough to recognize that I am willing to pay more for the name that I like.

I love Seiko, have great respect for what they've accomplished, but I have to agree with you. San Martin produces better fit and finish, better spec watches for less money. It's the sad truth. You have to go above the $1k lvl for Seiko to beat SM. And what SM could do with a $1k price watch!

I wanted to buy the re-issue of the captain willard, but the price was so high. I decided to get the steeldive, which still had better specs. You can even get the same NH35 movement from Seiko. That say's it all.

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My first awakening happened with I ordered a San Martin homage of the Tudor BB 58. It was great! But I thought, hey, the original has got to be better, right? Let me see how much better. So I went to a Tudor dealer and tried it on. Yes, it was better. But not by much; it was a matter of nuance. The bracelet had a better clasp but I couldn't get over the faux rivets. The SM had a better bezel, with 120 clicks which I prefer. And it sounded better too! The Tudor had this louder 'cheaper' sound. The watch itself was only marginally better feel and quality. Certainly not 10x the quality of the SM.

I had a similar experience with an Omega Aqua Terra. I didn't compare it to a Chinese or other brand, but it felt 'cheap'. There was nothing so premium about the crown action, the applied indices were good but nothing special, the dial was good but again nothing spectacular. My Relio Solstice has a better dial. I expected a 'premium' feel to the watch and nothing happened.

This made me realize the truth about diminishing returns on luxury watches. The more you go above $3k, the less you get in terms of objective quality. The rest is paying for the brand name.

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thekris

I have to disagree a bit here. It's wishful thinking and overvaluation of our own opinions that make watch nerds think karma is coming for Rolex. While the business model is annoying to us, it works. It works quite well, which is why Omega and everybody else are copying it to whatever degree they can. The fact a Rolex is so hard to get turns out to be a feature not an obstacle. People who are just into watches as status symbols love the fact they're hard to get...it increases perceived value. I'd be willing to bet that Omega sales will stay the same or increase after this latest round of price increases.

The mistake people like us make is thinking that Rolex sells watches to watch people, they don't. They sell watches to people with money who don't know anything about watches. Ask yourself this: is Rolex advertising centered on what great timepieces they are or on how good people will think you look wearing them? In the end, for each of us (people who have decided not to play the Rolex game) there are 100 people with money and a desire to feel like they've got something special. And that's what Rolex sells, the idea of luxury. You (and many others) point out that Rolex is largely built on marketing hype, and you're right about that. But that's the point. They want to make money, and they've found a way to do that.

Prices are starting to drop because the people who just jump on the next big flipping opportunity have started to see they've pushed it too far and the ride's over. But the Rolex market isn't collapsing, it's just returning to normal. Their watches will be less scarce, but still scarce because that's how they want it. They'll continue to be very expensive and difficult to get, because that's the way they want it. And after more than 100 years, it should be clear that Rolex knows exactly what the f*ck they're doing.

Violence comes in many forms and to my mind that fierce snobbery selling tactic is a form of vile behaviour that I will not lower myself to play naked twister for the amusement of these people , don’t get me wrong, I still Love Rolex watches , just not the FOMO bullshit and hype for anything including Ferrari which does exactly the same thing as Rolex . It’s the uber rich laughing at you , never delude yourself it’s anything else than that .

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interesting comments all round.

I think that every watch collector should at least own a rolex at some point.

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So, we all know that Rolex watches are worth their weight in gold (literally), and it's no secret that they come with a hefty price tag. But did you know that Rolex is also involved in a non-profit foundation that supports social causes and sports activities? Yup, you heard it right - Rolex has a heart of gold too (pun intended)! Through the Rolex Foundation, the brand has been supporting all sorts of projects that promote excellence and perpetuate knowledge in various fields, like science, technology, and the arts. They've been preserving cultural heritage sites, conserving the environment, conducting medical research, and promoting sustainable development. Plus, they've been sponsoring sports events left, right, and center, helping to promote sports and develop new talent. Rolex isn't exactly bragging about their philanthropic efforts. They're not shouting it from the rooftops or flashing it on billboards. In fact, you may not even have known about it until now. If you're interested in diving deeper into Rolex's non-profit foundation and sports sponsorship, you can head over to their website (https://www.rolex.org/) and check out some of the projects they've been supporting. In conclusion, while the price of a Rolex watch may make your bank account cry, it's important to recognize the bigger picture and the positive impact that the brand is making. So, let's continue the discussion in the comments and maybe even spread the word about Rolex's philanthropic efforts - after all, it's not every day that you find a luxury brand that's giving back to the world in such a big way.

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So a couple of points:

1) How can I be a snob if I openly admit being a Timex fanboy? Timex isn't exactly a snob's watch brand. Simply disagreeing with you does not make me a snob.

2) There are lots of Miyota, Sellita, and Sea-Gull powered microbrands people go crazy for. Just because you like the ones with Seiko movements does not mean others aren't popular.

3) I'm not a fan of the Miyota 8000 series movements, but I'll take a 9000 series over anything Seiko below the 8R series. I like thin watches, and Seiko movements are anything but thin.

4) A Timex mechanical field watch on bracelet at retail costs less than a SRPD on a NATO at retail, and comes with sapphire... For $50 CAD more you can get a Timex in titanium, with 200m WR, and sapphire...

Seiko: Seiko 5 Sports Sports Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch SRPD55K1F - Mens | TheBay

Timex: Expedition North Field Mechanical 38mm Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch - Timex CA

Better Timex: Expedition North® Titanium Automatic 41mm Eco-Friendly Leather Strap Watch - Timex CA

But just so we are clear, and maybe you can feel less personally slighted by my Seiko comments. I'm not saying Seiko makes bad watches, I'm simply saying you pay extra because the name Seiko is on the dial.

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Dude... I'm not sure why you're taking this so personally, nor why you're attempting to put words in my mouth.

Seiko movements are generally far more highly regarded than anything else, including Miyota

Generally anything less than an NH is regarded as a compromise.

By Whom? Other random people on the internet? Why is their opinion worth more than mine? Because it agrees with your opinion?

Stupid comments like outdated movements.

It's not stupid, the 7S26 is outdated... the 4R36 is the direct successor to it, and was available for Seiko to use as an upgrade to the SKX or Seiko 5 models. They didn't do it for a long time, and when they did they bumped the prices, while reducing the specs.

Yeah yeah I can buy a Timex cheaper but this reminds me of when I went to look at the Ford Mustang when they first arrived in the UK with right hand drive.

Some bloke came over to me and started waffling on about how much better the equivalent BMW was and how you get so much more for your money.

I just said "I don't care. I'd still take the Mustang"

He seemed totally perplexed that anyone could possibly not see the world as he does.

You might want to go back and actually read what I wrote earlier, because your story is exactly what I was talking about. I never said it was a bad thing, I simply said that for some people the name is worth the extra money. I'm that way with Timex, some people are like that with Rolex, or Seiko...

I'm done with this conversation, you clearly just wanted a fight and I'm now bored of it.

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I agree. I would not pay $11k for that watch.

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The unhappiness with Rolex is nothing new. Even people who never intended to own one or are priced out due to the cost, are in on the conversation.

AD's are selling the experience because they are betting that if you really wanted one, you will end up getting one whether it's from a grey market or an authorised dealer.

My purchase of my Datejust and Submariner was simply to succumb to that urge to own a Rolex. I didn't buy it because I think it had a fantastic movement nor that it was something I could end up selling close to retail at some point. It was just that, a Rolex watch.

When you've been collecting. movements really don't matter as much. My Revelot Hexmariner runs on an NH35, my Aquastar runs on a Sellita. I would not have any issue if a watch has a Miyota movement as long as I like that watch.

Life is short folks 😉

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Tinfoiled14

Violence comes in many forms and to my mind that fierce snobbery selling tactic is a form of vile behaviour that I will not lower myself to play naked twister for the amusement of these people , don’t get me wrong, I still Love Rolex watches , just not the FOMO bullshit and hype for anything including Ferrari which does exactly the same thing as Rolex . It’s the uber rich laughing at you , never delude yourself it’s anything else than that .

I agree if a little less strenuously. I have a Rolex that my wife bought pre-owned years ago when that was cheaper than new. But while they make several watches I would love to own and could manage to purchase (probably just one of them), I’ve decided I won’t buy from them until I can walk in and pick up a watch. I won’t kiss up to an AD for years or buy other watches to prove I’m serious, that’s nonsense.

But that doesn’t change the fact that a few watch nerds not buying doesn’t mean it’s a bad strategy. From a business perspective, what Rolex is doing works. So while it sucks for us, there are plenty of flex-Bros® who are even more pumped to buy from them because it’s such a hassle.

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Thank you Nash for mentioning the =comfort= which I overlooked in my first post. Also second to none IMHO.

Similar experience, although limited, at Rolex AD - I just bought one watch there. But good service and overall pleasant experience.

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Great discussion on here everyone! Update: I went back to that AD yesterday to pick up an appraisal and they said some guy came in, paid 17k cash for the Starbucks then bounced. It’s not worth that price. Not even the 11k at retail. People just want the name. I was told the buyer was a big Rolex guy. I guess he cares more about the name than the quality of what he was getting. Whatever makes people happy then go for it and it you want to seriously overpay for something just cause you want a crown logo on your wrist and feel like a king or queen then more power to you. Like I said in this original post, I respect the brand but no way the stainless steel models at least are worth five figures. 4k-6k tops.

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I don't think anyone questions that the market sets prices. The structure and accessibility arguably do matter here.

The nature of the equilibrium taught in Economics 101 depends on how many participants have access to the market (say Rolex watches) through which channel (AD, grey, private sale on forum, etc...).

It is in my opinion not clear whether the price that needed to be paid for a Rolex by an individual without a spending history would be identical if the authorised retailers would sell their watches to the highest bidder (in the most simple "fair" market).

OP in my opinion raises a solid point in regard to whether the prices are skewed relative to a "fair" equilibrium w.r.t. supply and demand. Whether that restricted access is part of the product and adds to its allure is of course a different matter altogether.

That said, as an owner of a modern Rolex and a first generation Brosnan Omega, I disagree with OP that a Peter Blake is anywhere near a six digit Rolex Submariner in build quality. It is, in my view, vastly superior to a five digit submariner however. Purely in terms of tangible build quality and in hand feel.

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They are not overpriced as long as there are customers willing to pay these prices. We may not agree with this but we also don't matter a lot when potential buyers are willing to queue for years.