Through the Porthole... #2 - Talis

I said I might not, but this was already half-typed in a Word document, and my love for this watch surpasses most others.

I know I have a type (30mm 1940s sub-second 15J mechanical Swiss jobber), but that wasn't always the case. For a long period of time around 10-12 years ago I was obsessed with vintage "divers and drivers" as I used to call them. I had a mad Orient phase, I bought a rare Scuba Amfibia from the factory and wore it daily, and a pin-pallet rabbit-hole that thankfully I more or less managed to climb out of.

I was browsing eBay one Sunday, late, full of red wine and Chinese takeout, and I remember when I first saw her... a Talis Skin Diver from the 1960s. Shark mesh bracelet. Silver dial. 25J. Incabloc. I put a decent bid on her (£80), she went for around £96.52 at the buzzer. Sniped.

I was gutted.

I never forgot her.

About 3-4 months later, I saw this on another auction. Lovely blue dial instead, crappy strap, a little more beaten than the other, but no bids. £35. It was the easiest decision.

SO yes - a 1960s Talis Skin Diver, with a blue dial. What would you call it - marine blue?

Talis are an odd brand, again there is not much online, but they are quite cool. Talis Watch Co. seems to have started in 1916 as a partnership between James Reichenberg and Samuel Norman Burgess. Talis Watch is a trademark registered to Reichenberg & Co in 1916, and Talis seems to be registered to The Talis Watch Co. from 1917 - 1937 AND to Reichenberg & Co Ltd. in 1962.

Reichenberg & Co was an established company based at 7 Hatton Garden, London, founded in 1899 by James Reichenberg. Reichenberg retired in 1925, and the business was continued by Burgess until his death in 1938. Reichenberg & Co were makers of carriage clocks, and were authorised distributors of many bands, including Girard-Perregaux.

The brand name was mysteriously resurrected in the 1960s (1962 as per above?), and the watches could be purchased through catalogues in the UK; it is widely believed that Burgess's widow was responsible for this reboot. Sadly, not much information is available from beyond this point, but I believe there are sightings of digital watches as late as 1982 in a Kays catalogue... I remember taking a dead one to my watch guy (many might remember that episode) and him muttering "ooh... a Talis". He has a poker face most days, but that was an outburst I didn't expect. I pressed him further, but he had moved on.

This watch is clearly quite large for a 1960s watch: 38mm wide without the crown (41mm with), 39mm lug to lug. Strap is 18mm. The case itself is steel-plated, with a stainless steel back. With the acrylic glass, it's 11mm thick, surprisingly slim for this sort of watch. The watch is rated for 100m water resistance, and is marked as "Waterproof" on the dial - it's not anymore, but it seems quite solid.

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The movement is interesting - 25J Automatic Incabloc... popping the back reveals an unsigned ETA 2472. This is a pretty common movement that was used between 1963-1971, decent enough.

Dr Ranfft says:

Automatic, sweep second, date: set by changing 20:30-24:00h
11.5''', Dm= 25.6mm, Do= 26.0mm
H= 5.3mm
F= 1.4mm
T= 1.85mm
17/21/25 jewels
f = 18000 A/h
power reserve 42h

This places the watch probably around the mid-1960s. How is it holding up today - yes, it probably needs a service, it loses around 2-3 minutes as it loses power, and I think the reserve is around 24 hours. It's probably a lot worse now than when I first had it, but hey, that's understandable.

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The dial - relatively clean, lovely blue, it has a lacquer-y type of finish rather than brushed or sunburst, so it doesn't really sing like others I have. The white text on the blue is quite difficult to pick out under certain light conditions, but it is 60 years old, what do you want from it. There is a slight “pie-pan“ to the dial, a subtle curve, not like the sharp and ultra-desirable Omega pie-pans, but it’s understated. The handset is a bit... meh, although I like the little arrow on the sweep seconds hand, I think it's cute. The indices are just simpler rectangular lume strips, it's not brilliant, but they extend across the curve of the mini-pie-pan, so they are in proportion to the rest of the watch. The lume though, still decent; you get a little bit of glow after a day in the sun, so this MUST have been reapplied at some point.

The bezel - bi-directional, smooth, no clicks. Lume pip clearly long gone (maybe like a Pelagos it fell off underwater). It has black paint that has somehow survived all this time and the abuse I've subjected the watch to. The bezel itself is very thin, around 1.5mm, and with a slight serrated edge, its difficult to grab at times and you will need to use a nail to start moving it. It also wobbles a little, so there is a little bit of numeral drift. Slightly annoying. 
 

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So... it's probably quite average. You might even call it unremarkable. That's fine, I sort of agree. This watch does mean something to me though as it is one of the first vintage divers I bought that I feel I got it "just right" - good movement, nice size, reliable (to an extent), comfortable, rugged. I also travel with this watch - this watch has been with me on every trip for over ten years. It started with numerous Arctic excursions (Iceland, Finland, Norway/Russia, Sweden, Greenland, Canada), and it's gone into the depths of numerous rainforests and up various mountains. It has earned the nickname of the 'Ice Queen', and 'Old Faithful'. -35 to +40*C, kept decent time and kept up. It struggles with the humidity, but so do I. It's survived animal attack, trips, falls, submersion. It's seen Northern Lights and Solar Eclipses, and I love her. If I'm travelling, she's the first on the wrist along with the Gulfmaster running as a GMT in the roll. 

So, what would this be worth? I think £35 was a good price. I probably wouldn't pay more than £50 for one in this condition, I certainly wouldn't want to pay more. I think a service would be in the region of £180-£200, and whilst I don't think it would be one that deserved that as an investment (the case isn't great, the dial a little bland) as there is a lot of sentiment tied into this watch, I'd willingly see her fixed if she eventually broke down.

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Reply
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I have enjoyed your paean to the middling mid-60's skin diver. When we rescue these unwanted and unloved auction site finds we can sometimes really get quite taken by them. If they stay in the collection they remind us of what our infatuations had been. They are like old crushes.

If that watch had the Seiko name on its dial people would fall all over themselves to compliment its simplicity of style and modern case. There was real competition in the skin diver space in the 60's.

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Aurelian

I have enjoyed your paean to the middling mid-60's skin diver. When we rescue these unwanted and unloved auction site finds we can sometimes really get quite taken by them. If they stay in the collection they remind us of what our infatuations had been. They are like old crushes.

If that watch had the Seiko name on its dial people would fall all over themselves to compliment its simplicity of style and modern case. There was real competition in the skin diver space in the 60's.

Absolutely, and a lot of them suffer from having pin-pallets as well.

You are right about the branding as well - any other name and we would be answering questions about where we could find these and how great they are. It really is a decent watch. Some of the others are nice as well, I might see what’s out there and buy it a friend.
 

I have another Talis, it’s a dress watch with, I think, the same movement. It’s very similar to my Smiths Astral, in that it’s a dressy watch with a red arrow sweep second hand.

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It doesn’t get any wrist time - and that’s a me issue, not the watch issue. I’ve had it a similar amount of time to the other Talis and yet this one languishes in a drawer while the other one jets around the world. If we did another 1WC then I would probably pick this one.

The other thing I seem to love about Talis - the logo. I don’t know why, but it reminds me of a manta ray, and the font is just bang on. It’s like the start of Stingray or Thunderbirds, it’s so 60s it’s going to land in the Moon and take me to Woodstock.

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This post is making me want to wear my vintage Vostok diver. I may just tomorrow...

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Another great post - always love to read 'em. 

I don't have any Talis in the collection, maybe in 2024 when I stop my self-imposed restriction from purchasing any more watches I'll go hunt one.

Thanks!

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Thank you for sharing. Interesting history lesson as always. Great looking watch and perfect size imo. Lovely blue color.

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Love the story and the colour of the dial, and I have today learnt what 'T Swiss made T' means after a quick Google.

I'm very impressed the watch hasn't taken such a beating in its life!

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It came into my possession in decent condition, so maybe it‘s the case helping preserve the watch, or maybe it was just looked after.

Swiss “jobbers” do vary in quality. I know other Talis divers have all steel cases, rather than just plate, and some of their dials have better finishing. Mostly, it’s probably just a painted or lacquered brass plate. Other brands would use better cases (Dennison, etc…), some would adjust their movements, others would add custom bridges, there is rarely any consistency, even across the same brand (like Talis). The AliExpress reference is probably acceptable, I tend to use it but treat it as a catalogue rather than a website. Catalogue watches are not always a bad thing, check out Helbros in the US, some of their watches are lovely. I believe @Aurelian has a post on them somewhere on here.

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Porthole

It came into my possession in decent condition, so maybe it‘s the case helping preserve the watch, or maybe it was just looked after.

Swiss “jobbers” do vary in quality. I know other Talis divers have all steel cases, rather than just plate, and some of their dials have better finishing. Mostly, it’s probably just a painted or lacquered brass plate. Other brands would use better cases (Dennison, etc…), some would adjust their movements, others would add custom bridges, there is rarely any consistency, even across the same brand (like Talis). The AliExpress reference is probably acceptable, I tend to use it but treat it as a catalogue rather than a website. Catalogue watches are not always a bad thing, check out Helbros in the US, some of their watches are lovely. I believe @Aurelian has a post on them somewhere on here.

My discussion of Helbros was accidently deleted when I tried to edit a grammatical mistake in a Stauer review that I had posted.

AliExpress does not really work as a comparison. The industry was very different before about 1978 than it is today. Once I fully understand the interplay of tariff policy by and towards the Swiss I will post something, or maybe just write a book. Companies were sourcing cases and movements to avoid tariffs to remain competitive, the profit margins were so small. Maybe a better comparison would be a company like Clinton.

Here is as good as any a place to remind people of how "survivorship bias" is reflected in vintage watches. When you see a good example of a vintage watch you assume that it survived because it was well made, with above average materials. You look backward from the watch to its origin. The fact is that it more likely survived due to luck, nothing more. This watch's rarity is due to the fact that so few were made. There are lots of Elgin and Seconda watches because so many were made. With more watches, there are more nice examples that survive. That doesn't make them better watches, or this one worse. 

This is a nice watch because it was lucky. It likely spent most of its existence in a man's sock drawer. Many watches in this era became distinctly unstylish with the advent of LCD displays and quartz movements.

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Aurelian

My discussion of Helbros was accidently deleted when I tried to edit a grammatical mistake in a Stauer review that I had posted.

AliExpress does not really work as a comparison. The industry was very different before about 1978 than it is today. Once I fully understand the interplay of tariff policy by and towards the Swiss I will post something, or maybe just write a book. Companies were sourcing cases and movements to avoid tariffs to remain competitive, the profit margins were so small. Maybe a better comparison would be a company like Clinton.

Here is as good as any a place to remind people of how "survivorship bias" is reflected in vintage watches. When you see a good example of a vintage watch you assume that it survived because it was well made, with above average materials. You look backward from the watch to its origin. The fact is that it more likely survived due to luck, nothing more. This watch's rarity is due to the fact that so few were made. There are lots of Elgin and Seconda watches because so many were made. With more watches, there are more nice examples that survive. That doesn't make them better watches, or this one worse. 

This is a nice watch because it was lucky. It likely spent most of its existence in a man's sock drawer. Many watches in this era became distinctly unstylish with the advent of LCD displays and quartz movements.

Well - I took it on holiday and fought a goose, it’s luck more than ran out with me.

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Porthole

Well - I took it on holiday and fought a goose, it’s luck more than ran out with me.

Picture (of the goose) or it didn't happen.

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Aurelian

Picture (of the goose) or it didn't happen.

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This was in Vancouver - I thought it was off seeing a Canadian Goose in Canada, as we see so many in London. He got offended.