The perils of vintage #94 - or - so you want to buy a vintage watch? The vintage guide none of you asked for…

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This makes me so happy.

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The most thorough discussion of vintage that I have seen.  Well done.

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The internet has made vintage collecting so much more enjoyable. There are huge gaps in information, but it is better then it used to be.

Never heard of a brand? Start here:  https://mikrolisk.de/  That is a German website that will tell you when a brand is first registered. So, "New York 1948" will be a "jobber" as Chris says. That is what we call euphemistically call an "importer". Some will have a New York and Swiss entry. These companies imported their own movements and assembled them in the U.S. to avoid tariffs. Some of these companies sold a lot of watches (Helbros, Welsbro, Hampden, Clinton, etc.)

See a random old watch on eBay and very soon you can narrow down on who made it, when and where. Soon you will see connections. Why are people bidding so much for a "Seeland"? Well, it was an Invicta for the American market back when Invicta was a quality brand. Once upon a time Movado was the real deal and the vintage market remembers. There are websites devoted to Gruen, Elgin, Certina, Rolex, Bulova, Omega, Hampden, and Soviet watches. There are movement decoders to help you date movements, not just Seiko.

I love learning the weird fractured history of watches. Pontiac, named after a Native American chief was Swiss but targeted at Belgium. Atlantic was sold in countries that were far from the Atlantic. Rodania and Rodana may be the same brand, but not always. West End was named after a London neighborhood by Swiss to sell to English in India. There was a man named Nicolet at the founding of several watch companies (Voumard too), but they were not necessarily related (and have no relation to Armand Nicolet).

Watch for poorly painted dials (Omega from Korea), wrong handsets (Swiss vintage from China), mismatched cases and movements (anywhere), and things that are "rare" or a family piece. I rather like the honesty of a seller who bought it at an estate sale and is turning a small profit from someone's ignorance (hopefully, not yours). If you are a modder who has real tools, you may want to buy a project. I stick to things that set, run, and keep time. Learn to love acrylic crystal. Most are standard sizes and can be replaced for around $20US. Scratches can be buffed out.

Preach, Brother, preach.

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Awesome Sauce!! Bookmarked this bad boy!! 

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You should start a vintage watch concierge business where people pay you to find them vintage watches and then you get your cut at the end. 

Just saying that's a lot of free advice you just gave out... :-) 

Also, dibs on first place if this materializes... 

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Aurelian

The internet has made vintage collecting so much more enjoyable. There are huge gaps in information, but it is better then it used to be.

Never heard of a brand? Start here:  https://mikrolisk.de/  That is a German website that will tell you when a brand is first registered. So, "New York 1948" will be a "jobber" as Chris says. That is what we call euphemistically call an "importer". Some will have a New York and Swiss entry. These companies imported their own movements and assembled them in the U.S. to avoid tariffs. Some of these companies sold a lot of watches (Helbros, Welsbro, Hampden, Clinton, etc.)

See a random old watch on eBay and very soon you can narrow down on who made it, when and where. Soon you will see connections. Why are people bidding so much for a "Seeland"? Well, it was an Invicta for the American market back when Invicta was a quality brand. Once upon a time Movado was the real deal and the vintage market remembers. There are websites devoted to Gruen, Elgin, Certina, Rolex, Bulova, Omega, Hampden, and Soviet watches. There are movement decoders to help you date movements, not just Seiko.

I love learning the weird fractured history of watches. Pontiac, named after a Native American chief was Swiss but targeted at Belgium. Atlantic was sold in countries that were far from the Atlantic. Rodania and Rodana may be the same brand, but not always. West End was named after a London neighborhood by Swiss to sell to English in India. There was a man named Nicolet at the founding of several watch companies (Voumard too), but they were not necessarily related (and have no relation to Armand Nicolet).

Watch for poorly painted dials (Omega from Korea), wrong handsets (Swiss vintage from China), mismatched cases and movements (anywhere), and things that are "rare" or a family piece. I rather like the honesty of a seller who bought it at an estate sale and is turning a small profit from someone's ignorance (hopefully, not yours). If you are a modder who has real tools, you may want to buy a project. I stick to things that set, run, and keep time. Learn to love acrylic crystal. Most are standard sizes and can be replaced for around $20US. Scratches can be buffed out.

Preach, Brother, preach.

And here comes the big guns. There are so many brands, and their different ways they operated and the markets they went for, it’s amazing. I could… we all could just go on for days about each and every detail. Brand history is important, and it does pay to read around it because it helps to understand the modern markets as well. I think the parallels to pre-quartz crisis and now are very similar, with either the phone/smart watch or apathy being the next crisis looming.

I bow to superior knowledge, and to those who actually fix and mod; what I think what I just wanted to do was consolidate all the little bits and pieces I’ve dropped into one place and then people can just take it or leave it. Vintage is not hard.

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charkerparles

You should start a vintage watch concierge business where people pay you to find them vintage watches and then you get your cut at the end. 

Just saying that's a lot of free advice you just gave out... :-) 

Also, dibs on first place if this materializes... 

Maybe there is a potential there, I could certainly consult 😂 but my views are, how to put it, polarising. 

The information offered is nothing really too precious, but the experiences I have are worth sharing. I do have some huge gaps, mainly Japanese and Chinese markets, but my exposure and experience is within just generic Swiss. When I started collecting the retro models weren’t really a thing, if I wanted vintage I had to go vintage. I’ve lusted hard over watches I’ve had to turn down, and I’ve mistakenly missed opportunities to pick up decent models I love and admire. I tended to dabble in the real random stuff after I scratched the Rolex itch, and acquired a Trinity watch. I needed a new quest, so to speak, and I really love seeing what I can get for pennies. Share the knowledge, that’s all I want to do.

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Porthole

And here comes the big guns. There are so many brands, and their different ways they operated and the markets they went for, it’s amazing. I could… we all could just go on for days about each and every detail. Brand history is important, and it does pay to read around it because it helps to understand the modern markets as well. I think the parallels to pre-quartz crisis and now are very similar, with either the phone/smart watch or apathy being the next crisis looming.

I bow to superior knowledge, and to those who actually fix and mod; what I think what I just wanted to do was consolidate all the little bits and pieces I’ve dropped into one place and then people can just take it or leave it. Vintage is not hard.

Vintage is not hard

True.

What is your success rate? Meaning, how many watches out of ten, do you buy and that work and look about like you expect with minimal work (new band, new crystal, etc.)? I would calculate mine to be about 85%. So, 15% of my purchases disappoint. In the OCD world that is watch collecting that is a high rate.  I like to think that I know what I am doing (I don't). My success rate has improved. 

That's a long way of saying that there are mistakes and duds out there. Let them be inexpensive learning experiences.

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+1 on the German watch movement archive...I used that to research a NOS Cricket I picked up

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Aurelian

Vintage is not hard

True.

What is your success rate? Meaning, how many watches out of ten, do you buy and that work and look about like you expect with minimal work (new band, new crystal, etc.)? I would calculate mine to be about 85%. So, 15% of my purchases disappoint. In the OCD world that is watch collecting that is a high rate.  I like to think that I know what I am doing (I don't). My success rate has improved. 

That's a long way of saying that there are mistakes and duds out there. Let them be inexpensive learning experiences.

I’m probably sitting in a similar bracket in terms of success. To be honest, I send a lot back if it’s dead which actually skews the success rate to near 100%. I only purchase if it claims it’s working, so if that’s bs it’s refund-time. I tried to explain my process, but it’s probably even more complicated than how I described. I also have an insane sense of when I think something is a pin-pallet. It’s mad.

My major casualties right now are the Oris ChronOris, and my original Oris Pointer Date. The Bucherer went back, so it doesn’t count, but that broke my heart. I have a Gruen Precision cal.412, a Gruen with a rare dial but FHF movement, and a Buren Grand Prix in the shop, and of the 3 the cal.412 might be the dud.

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violanime

+1 on the German watch movement archive...I used that to research a NOS Cricket I picked up

Oh yes, God bless Dr Ranfft 

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Beautiful, beautiful work here.  

This took a lot of time to put to words and I for one appreciate the effort it took and the years of experience that went into this post. 

For those of us that were still wondering what "do your homework" meant, it should now be clearly evident; learn the histories of the overall watch industry and brands that you find yourself interested in. 

Maybe not in complete detail (as you say, we could be here for years going A-Z), but much more than the broadest strokes of start dates of companies, quartz revolution, first diver, first auto chronograph, etc.

Again, kudos to you and to @Aurelian for the primer & the sites. 

One day soon, I hope to be a disciple in full fellowship of the Church of Vintage. 

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Wow - awesome post! 

I read every word and all the comments - the one thing you learn fast about collecting vintage watches...is you can never read enough, never research enough, and never get enough of great write-ups by expert collectors like @chronotriggered or @Aurelian.

If you made it this far into the thread you are definitely ready to take the plunge.

It's an exciting and fun excursion - just start small and learn fast.

I have to say my favorite area of vintage is finding true "New Old Stock" (NOS) watches especially with the original hang tags, packaging, manuals, stickers still on the caseback (which will never come off nor should you seek to remove them or the colorful wax that you sometimes find back there). Be careful here again because there are those who will call something NOS that has been "improved" to look newer than it is. Of course, the minute I receive my NOS watches and start wearing them - they are no longer true NOS (but I digress).

IMPORTANT WARNING

One thing Chris alluded to when discussing his Omega f300Hz, don't mess around with vintage electrics or tuning fork watches unless you have balls of steel and a deep bank account. 

1) You will never recover the money you spent to acquire them - it's just a fact. 

2) Almost nobody works on them - no servicing and no battery replacements. When you do find an expert expect to spend a minimum of $300 for a service and a minimum of $25 for a battery replacement plus the cost of shipping the watches to/from the expert watch maker who will fix them. 

3) If you are ever dumb enough to buy them, recognize that if you aren't careful about having the battery replaced within a reasonable time frame you will have a complete mess inside the watch when the old battery leaks and destroys the electronic movement.

4) And for God's sake, make sure to pull out the crown if you aren't wearing them all the time. There's no good reason to run down the battery any faster than it will on its own and you are burning up some of the components that will cost you more than $300 to have replaced.

So, yes those old Accutrons look amazing and so do the incredible Hamilton asymmetrical electrics, but take it from someone whose bank accounts knows best - this is relatively expensive vintage territory for the original price you paid for the watch and let me repeat you will never recover your investment - so just plan to enjoy the watch and not expect to get a return from it.

Last thoughts...

Don't let a bad experience rob your joy. 

My first vintage purchase was a Hamilton "Ventura" electric that was frankenwatched by a "reputable" antique watch dealer who tried to make a less expensive "Pacer" look like the more expensive "Ventura". He would have succeeded had I not continued my research after purchase and received helpful input from Rene Rondeau who at the time was the foremost authority on Hamilton electrics (and probably still is but he sold his repair business due to health reasons). The good news is that I was able to get refunded even though the dealer did so quite begrudgingly - and I learned some really valuable lessons really fast.

More than two decades on...I'm still in the game and still finding great pleasure in collecting vintage watches.

Hope all of you that jump in have the same incredible fun and joy from it!

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Thanks for taking the time to share all of that info. 

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This is THE definitive guide! It will either drag you into the rabbit hole or get you running scared. 🍻

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Aurelian

You wouldn't know where I could find a good sword would you? I want to work on my sabrage.

Champagne was always my Achilles Heel, or is that my Wrist? 🤔😜😂

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Aurelian

Sure.  But the flipside is where no one is bidding on a watch and you can't figure out why. Nothing is triggering any warnings. The seller is rated highly. The watch is purportedly working. And yet, there is zero action.

If you like it there is very little risk. I spent three times the amount on the strap than I did on this watch:

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It is just a beaten up old Raketa.  But, they are rarer than Rolex here. It keeps good time and is just fine for occasional wear. No special knowledge was needed. Lower risk, lower reward, but it has rewarded me nevertheless. It is one of my favorite travel watches because I don't worry about its accuracy or its risk of loss.

It’s true. Why is no one bidding on some genuinely amazing stuff? No idea!!!

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This cost me £30, it’s a mid-30s Audax with a Venus 60-I movement. It’s actually quite special for a variety of reasons, but it’s an acquired taste. 
 

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It’s pretty good, a little beaten, but will work and look great with a new acryllic and strap.

So follow the guide:

  • size, smaller ~28mm
  • movement - 15J pallet-lever. Actually in production from the mid-20s. Probably no shock protection but why would you smash this around.
  • brand - dead, but related to Fortis. Fortis et Audax - the Bold and the Brave. It’s got some heritage.
  • dial - lively. Rare art-deco numerals. Beautiful sub-second dial, of the period.
  • is this a good buy? If you like, and it runs, yes, this is probably a good buy if this is up your street…
  • risk vs reward? good payoff.
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The write-up is legit for collectors, but I think it is a little out of the novice league! Carry on...  😁

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JaeBust

The write-up is legit for collectors, but I think it is a little out of the novice league! Carry on...  😁

And I’m asking for some guidance on how to address that 🙂

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Porthole

And I’m asking for some guidance on how to address that 🙂

IMHO you are preaching to the choir! A novice has no business in the vintage realm! Am I not clear about this? A novice should start on the orthodox path, watch and learn. That is my experience, go mainstream first and then try vintage when experienced enough. 😀

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JaeBust

IMHO you are preaching to the choir! A novice has no business in the vintage realm! Am I not clear about this? A novice should start on the orthodox path, watch and learn. That is my experience, go mainstream first and then try vintage when experienced enough. 😀

I talk about experience(s), and modern retro. I say it’s a choice and a risk. I actually advocate for avoidance early doors. It’s pretty basic as a guide; I could have been a lot more exclusive and technical, but then no one would actually engage.

You seemed to imply it wasn’t accessible, but I think you mean it’s not relatable to a large number of users, including yourself, as you believe in sticking with the orthodox path as you put it... That’s fine, there is no right or wrong way to “watch”. The guide is here if anyone is interested. If it confirms or denies interest in vintage, it’s done its job.

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Porthole

I talk about experience(s), and modern retro. I say it’s a choice and a risk. I actually advocate for avoidance early doors. It’s pretty basic as a guide; I could have been a lot more exclusive and technical, but then no one would actually engage.

You seemed to imply it wasn’t accessible, but I think you mean it’s not relatable to a large number of users, including yourself, as you believe in sticking with the orthodox path as you put it... That’s fine, there is no right or wrong way to “watch”. The guide is here if anyone is interested. If it confirms or denies interest in vintage, it’s done its job.

It has confirmed my fondness of Gruen is well placed and should be enthusiastically pursued, cautiously. 
I enjoyed reading it and thank you for the effort you put into writing it. 

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Porthole

It’s true. Why is no one bidding on some genuinely amazing stuff? No idea!!!

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This cost me £30, it’s a mid-30s Audax with a Venus 60-I movement. It’s actually quite special for a variety of reasons, but it’s an acquired taste. 
 

Image

It’s pretty good, a little beaten, but will work and look great with a new acryllic and strap.

So follow the guide:

  • size, smaller ~28mm
  • movement - 15J pallet-lever. Actually in production from the mid-20s. Probably no shock protection but why would you smash this around.
  • brand - dead, but related to Fortis. Fortis et Audax - the Bold and the Brave. It’s got some heritage.
  • dial - lively. Rare art-deco numerals. Beautiful sub-second dial, of the period.
  • is this a good buy? If you like, and it runs, yes, this is probably a good buy if this is up your street…
  • risk vs reward? good payoff.

Update - Audax is dead.

Risk vs reward - meh

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Secondhandshadow

It has confirmed my fondness of Gruen is well placed and should be enthusiastically pursued, cautiously. 
I enjoyed reading it and thank you for the effort you put into writing it. 

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Thank you. Gruen gets a thumbs up from me. I need to get mine back from the menders.

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And I just “won” my first eBay auction for a little Gruen with a cracked crystal. 

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Secondhandshadow

And I just “won” my first eBay auction for a little Gruen with a cracked crystal. 

Pic?

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It arrived today 

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Secondhandshadow

It arrived today 

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That should clean up nicely.

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Some folks have starred this post. For all things Universal Geneve Polerouter start here.

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Thanks for posting this!