All the Cartier love - whats the story?

For me it's the exposure over the last 5 or so years (then again I've only been collecting watches for 6-7 so take that as what you will). You didn't see too much of Cartier until TGV made his expose on why he bought the Tank and the history of the brand. So TGV tax and the increased coverage maybe? I'm sure there are other reasons too though 

Oh my god what am I reading… Cartier is a well-established watch brand with immense heritage. You may have seen an uptick in marketing, but it’s not because they’ve suddenly discovered how to make a decent watch all of a sudden. 😂 salva mea…

I suspect it has more to do with the watch community "groupthink" shifting toward the brand, as everybody wants to get in early with the "next big thing". 

Like with Rolex, people have learned over time that talking about Cartier generates clicks, so they talk about Cartier. 

If speculators ruin Cartier I will come out swinging. I‘m still really surprised at this thread - we are talking about Cartier? A borderline fashion watch for the ladies? Someone post that picture of Muhammad Ali wearing his Tank.

A couple of points I don’t think should be in dispute.

1. Cartier has always been a serious watchmaker.
2. Cartier has always been a strong brand, surviving independently through the quartz crisis and even picking up other brands in the 80’s like Piaget and Baume et Mercier.  Richemont didn’t acquire a majority position until 1998 and it has been the strongest business unit within Richemont.
3. As to it’s current position, I suspect that is entirely due to it’s CEO Cyrille Vigneron who took over in 2016.
4. I don’t think Cartier needs the enthusiast market and they do little to encourage it.  It’s not the enthusiast market that puts them consistently in the top five brands, usually as number 2 or 3.

How can anyone resist.

Another way to look at it is round versus rectangle.  Round watches were the Ur-watches, from pocket watches to early trench watches.  Cartier began the trend towards rectangular watches during the First World War.  Tank watches became the norm until the mid-1950's, a nearly four decade run.

Round watches almost completely displaced tank watches by 1960.  There was some experimentation with square dials and odd shapes in the late 1960's and 1970's, but round remained the dominant style.

When consumers wanted an alternative to the dominant style they turned to Cartier.  Cartier has stubbornly kept the rectangle through all of the other design fads.  The materials and movements are modern, but the design DNA is over a hundred years old.  I don't predict a return to the dominance of the rectangle case as it was in the 30's and 40's, but perhaps it won't be as rare as it later became.

I know zero statistics to back up my thoughts, but could there just be a trend towards dress-type watches again and less of a pull towards the diver, making Cartier a solid proposition in that category?

I would argue that Cartier has always been a solid proposition for a watch, period.

I am absolutely not dissing Cartier! You are preaching to the converted in that respect! But what do they offer in a watch market where the majority are looking for a diver is what I'm trying to say. Would you argue that Cartier aren't on the dressier side? If the market is now tending towards those dressier watches then Cartier can capture more of that market.

Here is your picture 👌

And this hot dude, because I'll never pass up an opportunity to post a pic of him 😁

Oh it wasn’t a swipe - I know you are after a Tank. I was doubling down on your point as I believe Cartier make some of the nicest watches around. If the market goes “dressy” or “classic” then they are going to enjoy themselves. Horologically (oh god I hate that word), they really do make nice in-house movements as well. The VC FiftySix uses a decorated Cartier Movement (they call it their Cal.1326, it’s just a blinged-up 1904 MC) so if it’s good enough for the trinity, it’s good enough for anybody.

I think I own the most non-dressy Cartier: the Pasha. It’s very hefty, weighs more than my Milgauss. I actually bought this over an Omega Seamaster, a Breitling Bentley, and a Tag Carerra (yeah, not a great option that last one) in a 4-way shoot-out. 

I love my Pasha.

I’ll raise you a Steve McQueen. Thomas Crown Affair, 1968, Tank Cintrée. 

For me personally,  I think it was more a case of me accidentally discovering Cartier rather than Cartier doing something to reach out to me. I've always liked watches that are unique in some way, and Cartier has that in spades. As most enthusiasts do, I tend to notice watches on peoples wrists, both in real life and on TV. A couple of years ago, I spotted an unusual looking watch on TV and was immediately intrigued. I was able to determine that the watch in question was a Santos De Cartier, and ever since then it's been a watch that I've wanted to add to my collection. Not only do I think it's a gorgeous watch, but the story behind it's creation adds to the appeal. Ever since discovering and purchasing the Santos, I've been drawn to other options from Cartier as well.

Cartier design aesthetic has not changed in over a century, just packaged into different interpretations, relevant for their period. It's likely that for a certain segment of collectors and enthusiasts, as they have come to know what they like, their tastes evolve and they come to appreciate Cartier for what it is.

For the record, I have a Santos and I absolutely love it. 10 years ago, if you'd ask me what watches I like, the story would have been very different.

What surprised me recently was I saw they were 2nd on a list of highest selling brands. I agree with all the Cartier love above but who's buying them all? Is it non-watch-nerds?

Absolutely not. The brand already has a following and pedigree, I disagree with you completely, especially your perceived view of where it was positioned 5 years ago. I am also not so sure what your getting at with people recently embracing the brand, for example a Tank has always been seen as one of the classic goto dress watches for as long as I can remember, it has legendary status. You’ve had Clark Gable, Muhammad Ali and Steve McQueen snapped in them, and f**k even Kanye has been pictured wearing a Cartier Crash. This hasn’t happened because some YouTuber in 2018 made a video. 
 

Hermes has some heritage, they’ve worked with various brands in the past to produce some good quality watches. Bvlgari have been putting in a lot of work to be taken seriously - you are aware they’ve just retaken the record for the thinnest working watch and movement from Piaget. I think they still hold the record for the thinnest Tourbillon, or at least they did for a while. This is not something you just do for a laugh, it takes serious effort. Cartier movements can be found in Piaget and VC models, so I guess they must also lack any merit?

You called them a borderline ladies fashion watch. 

If you mean by “going dark” that the brand struggled to sell watches during the quartz crisis,  then yes, as did all major watch brands, especially the older and more luxury brands. Everyone had to adapt, and some brands took longer to restore their positions, whilst others you could argue never will. This whole period is very interesting, I’d recommend having a glance at who owns your favourite watch brands as the Swiss watchmaking industry went through major changes. That will definitely answer your questions.
Cartier is also a jewellers, not just a watch maker, and was a family owned business until the 60s when it was sold; the history is interesting I would seriously recommend having a read. 

I think there's bunch of contributing factors, but IMHO, none of them are "Cartier moves towards the enthusiast". You could say:
- Collector's tastes change over time and so move towards the brand
- Rolex scarcity may have prompted some first time buyers and/or collectors to seek another highly regarded, "milestone" watch. At least where I am, you can book an appointment with a boutique, try on actual watches, place your order and get it a few weeks later - sweet!!!
- The cult of celebrity and the worship of public icons, facilitated by social media and watch Youtubers, has led some to look for the next "it" watch and this has created it's own self-perpetuating cycle (which, if you look at any Cartier marketing, they lean into, very heavily, and have done so for a long time - think Clark Gable, Jackie O, Andy Warhol). I suspect many have "rediscovered" Cartier through this process, although it never really left!
- I think public perception of Cartier as a 'dress watch for special occasions' is slowly being tested and debunked. For example, I would say that the Santos is as good with a t-shirt and jeans as it is with a suit (as I type this, I have my Santos on with an old raggy t-shirt and running shorts!). The evolving perception of the Tank or Santos as "GADA" watches (even if the tech specs might suggest otherwise) is pulling in new markets and increasing reach into existing markets.
- Swing back towards small-medium sized watches (by today's standards). I think all genders are starting to look at sub 38-39mm pieces across every brand and are disregarding what should be for 'men' and 'women' and are simply buying what appeals to them most. Cartier has a lot more watches that fit this description, than most other brands.

 

I said "over the past five years its hard to ignore the changing status of Cartier - moving from borderline fashion watch for the ladies to serious watch for the enthusiast in the know."

Again, I made zero claims as to their quality - I referred solely and specifically to how they were perceived.

Regardless of how you want to argue the wording, you still implied that they were some fashion brand, you are well off the mark. It’s not a hot take, it is grossly out of touch.

Listen to this interview with Cartier CEO Cyrille Vigneron, who took over Cartier in 2016.  All your questions will be answered.

youtu.be/uC2WX5nZqqQ

I think your "Now - over the past five years its hard to ignore the changing status of Cartier - moving from borderline fashion watch for the ladies to serious watch for the enthusiast in the know." paragraph only really applies to the youtube and instagram watch content creators.

In any case, I think Santos de Cartier finally was masculine enough for the masculine watch buyers to take notice. Also it was a watch good enough functionally and aesthetically to be a one-watch-collection.

Previous failed attempts to capture the masculine market include Calibre de Cartier and Drive de Cartier, which are good looking watches (IMO) on their own right, just lacking in specs. 

IMHO I feel like the general youtube/instagram watch content creators are too fixated on sports watches. Probably because it's easy to sell an image of you exploring or doing something exciting with a sporty watch. When do people often wear their dress watches? To work. No one wants to be sold on the idea of going to work.

I feel a contradiction in your post - you say the generally feminine/fashion assessment of Cartier was limited to insta/youtuber folk but then appear to describe the failure of Cartier to maintain a significant attraction amongst male buyers listing a couple of failed attempts only being resolved with the re-release of the Santos in 2018 (following a 2 year hiatus and a subtle but significant redesign) when you say:

"I think Santos de Cartier finally was masculine enough for the masculine watch buyers to take notice"

To be clear I 100% agree - tracking back through media discussions of cariter generally the re-release of the Santos is a real milestone - post that watch their coverage changed and because far more engaging and involved.

Importantly however the Santos has been a gateway - since then all Cartiers have garnered significantly more coverage.

 

I guess what irked me about your statment was the second half: "to serious watch for the enthusiast in the know." I'd guess most enthusiasts already take Cartier seriously, and was trying to point out to you that those you deem to be "enthusiasts" seem to be youtube/insta people. The people who are mostly interested in sports a.k.a. masculine watches.

I do not have numbers to actually prove if the number of male buyers of Cartier watches actually increased significantly after Santos de Cartier, and if they were ever struggling to begin with. The aforementioned watches were more efforts to recreate the successful of the Ballon Bleu, in my opinion, rather than capture a non-existant male audience. In any case, homework for another day perhaps.

In any case I am glad that Cartier's getting attention from more people.

Already take Cartier seriously now or in 2015 - seven years ago.  My review of their coverage across professional watch media - not youtubers and insta folk - indicates a dramatic shift in their profile and treatment.

Understood! I feel that you have done more research than I have so I will take your word for it 😊. I guess a question for you then is, what should Cartier do from here? Should they produce more sports pieces other than the Santos? (e.g. bringing back Pasha Sea Timer, Calibre Diver, or perhaps a new design?)

Im a youtuber filming in my garage so I'll be cautious giving advice to billionaires running these groups/companies but in short I'd recommend against chasing the sports market. In the main Cartier has grown because people have come to them not the other way round. My theory is brands are at their best when they are being themselves and I feel that's behind Cartiers success - they know who they are, they are that and they've recently been presenting that in the best light - but not trying to be something they arent. 

The beauty of the group structure - when its done well - is that brands maximize what they can do in their niche and you don't have to force them into unfamiliar areas - let Panerai and IWC go crazy in the sports area, let JLC play there too (a bit) don't force Cartier to bend to that trend. 

It is not the brand, neither the enthusiasts. The influencers are guilty! 😉 i remember watching a yt video way back in 2017 when i started collecting watches. It was a collab video from tgv and federico i think... they both made fun about cartier that mostley women wear them and if you want to wear it as a man you would have to have the balls to pull it off ... i think they meant that you need class and style to suit a cartier on your wrist 😉 nowadays there are much more watchyoutubers around that push cartier into the watch enthusiasts brain. But that are just my 2 cents, what i recognized over the years... also in online mags like hodinkee, timeandtide and so on cartier receives a lot of hype.