Why some mid-tier brands move upmarket (and others don't)?

I've been pondering this one. I know prices are up across the board but  the likes of Oris are really gunning upmarket compared to the likes of Tissot, longines and Hamilton. 

I have my theories but wanna hear your take on this brand strategy first.

Reply
·

Interesting observation, Max. I'd think that it may be due to a variety of factors. Specifically, I think some brands may not have the resources to handle a bigger market, or some are comfortable in their current position. Others, imho, may have been waiting for an opportunity like this (looking at you Grand Seiko), to pounce when a position is vacated (Omega/Rolex). Perceptions among buyers I think is important as well. There are many great watch brands, but perception is key. I often think about car brands and the acronyms or quality plagued issues they can't escape from a bygone era. Ford's acronym (Fix Or Repair Daily), or GM (Garbage Machine) or the quality issues of German cars or the legendary quality of Japanese car brands. 

In the end, I think the pandemic helped many brands realize there's enough pie for everyone, and to step up their game, or keep up the good work.

·

Historically, Oris have an axe to grind. They also have a habit of sticking two fingers up at the big boys and showing them up, so they are more than welcome to run and gun; fair play to them. 

·

Oris are independent so perhaps free to “stretch”, it is my understanding that Swatch deliberately positioned Longines below Omega in their hierarchy and arguably devalued them a little more than their history would fairly position them otherwise. In terms of recent models, Spirit and Zulu / Pioneer specifically though, I also see Longines rising. 

·

The main reason many of those brands don’t move upmarket boils down to the fact they’re part of the SWATCH group, and it’s in the best interest of that business to maintain the ‘unique’ positioning of each brand within a specific tier of pricing/luxury/prestige.  Swatch Group would be far less profitable if all they had was a bunch of OMEGA’s in their stable, they cover way more of the market by having a range.  

That said, I think there’s room to allow Longines to trend upward, 

·

IMO and specific to the companies listed:  Perhaps large watch conglomerates like Swatch Group, that owns many brands like Tissot, Logines & Hamilton, may want to offer products at different price segments to attract the broadest consumers without competing against itself and cannibalizing its own profits. 

Whereas independent watch companies like Oris strive to move upmarket as means to broaden their product offerings and grow both company revenue & size.  

·

Yes that was my theory, those that are in the Swatch group will forever live under the shadow of big brother Omega.

In some ways I see Oris trying to model themselves after Nomos, make in house movement, increase prices 😉

·

Oris have always made in-house or customised movements, but due to the historical exclusivity and cabal that was pre-quartz Swiss watchmaking (1934 Watch Statute) they were forced to adapt and were stuck in the lower ranks of the market as they concentrated on “pin-lever” movements. This didn’t stop them from making some excellent calibres - the 652 (or a version of) was certified as a chronometer which is the very definition of rolling a turd in glitter. The innovation they demonstrate comes from the limitations imposed upon them at the time. Post quartz-crisis, and with better access and no restrictions they are showing people how it can be done. The 4000 series look really smart, and the 10 year warranty is a testament to how much faith they put into their work.

(Not like anyone is going to read this anyway, nobody seems to care about history on here.

Oris was founded in 1904, Nomos in 1990. How can you compare the two? Nomos has had to face none of the restrictions Oris had to overcome, it seems unfair to say that they are showing Oris how to operate as a watchmaker, that’s like me telling my Grandad how to procreate.)

·
Max

Yes that was my theory, those that are in the Swatch group will forever live under the shadow of big brother Omega.

In some ways I see Oris trying to model themselves after Nomos, make in house movement, increase prices 😉

I do hope so, independents are able to be really interesting in a slow to change industry, Nomos are great for a comparatively young brand,  priced sensibly in my opinion, have a clear design aesthetic, would be great to see some more weird and wonderful stuff (thinking MB&F, Urwerk) at more accessible pricing where group companies with the ability and scale can produce some innovations. Rado get close from time to time. 

In-house movements clearly carry weight with some and perhaps this is important to Oris, perhaps it's the only way they can produce the specs they want (power reserve, anti-magnetic) when movement supply is controlled????

·

I brought this topic up in the Grand Seiko forum a few weeks back. I'm actually a little sad GS is clearly setting its sites upwards. I found their value proposition second to none in the 4-6.5k range but now that their new releases are pushing 7-10k, you start entering JLC, Glashutte, Rolex territory and my decision making changes. That doesn't mean I don't think the new GS offerings and innovative movements aren't worth their asking price, but now competitors' resale value, finishing and movement quality start to become comparable. 

·
coreyod

The main reason many of those brands don’t move upmarket boils down to the fact they’re part of the SWATCH group, and it’s in the best interest of that business to maintain the ‘unique’ positioning of each brand within a specific tier of pricing/luxury/prestige.  Swatch Group would be far less profitable if all they had was a bunch of OMEGA’s in their stable, they cover way more of the market by having a range.  

That said, I think there’s room to allow Longines to trend upward, 

Yep, like General Motors' strategy with a brand for every customer (cradle to grave): Chevy, Pontiac (RIP), GMC, Buick, and Cadillac. Wait, does this make Omega the Buick of the Swatch lineup?

·
Porthole

Oris have always made in-house or customised movements, but due to the historical exclusivity and cabal that was pre-quartz Swiss watchmaking (1934 Watch Statute) they were forced to adapt and were stuck in the lower ranks of the market as they concentrated on “pin-lever” movements. This didn’t stop them from making some excellent calibres - the 652 (or a version of) was certified as a chronometer which is the very definition of rolling a turd in glitter. The innovation they demonstrate comes from the limitations imposed upon them at the time. Post quartz-crisis, and with better access and no restrictions they are showing people how it can be done. The 4000 series look really smart, and the 10 year warranty is a testament to how much faith they put into their work.

(Not like anyone is going to read this anyway, nobody seems to care about history on here.

Oris was founded in 1904, Nomos in 1990. How can you compare the two? Nomos has had to face none of the restrictions Oris had to overcome, it seems unfair to say that they are showing Oris how to operate as a watchmaker, that’s like me telling my Grandad how to procreate.)

Relax, I'm sure I can show your grandad a move or two 😉

Appreciate the history lesson but I think young companies often show old ones how to do business in modern times. 

·
Porthole

Oris have always made in-house or customised movements, but due to the historical exclusivity and cabal that was pre-quartz Swiss watchmaking (1934 Watch Statute) they were forced to adapt and were stuck in the lower ranks of the market as they concentrated on “pin-lever” movements. This didn’t stop them from making some excellent calibres - the 652 (or a version of) was certified as a chronometer which is the very definition of rolling a turd in glitter. The innovation they demonstrate comes from the limitations imposed upon them at the time. Post quartz-crisis, and with better access and no restrictions they are showing people how it can be done. The 4000 series look really smart, and the 10 year warranty is a testament to how much faith they put into their work.

(Not like anyone is going to read this anyway, nobody seems to care about history on here.

Oris was founded in 1904, Nomos in 1990. How can you compare the two? Nomos has had to face none of the restrictions Oris had to overcome, it seems unfair to say that they are showing Oris how to operate as a watchmaker, that’s like me telling my Grandad how to procreate.)

"(Not like anyone is going to read this anyway, nobody seems to care about history on here."

No, no, no - I am here for the history and to learn more - I'm reading!!! 😀

·

The Swiss watch industry is Rolex, Swatch, and Richemont.  All of the non-affiliated brands are microbrands compared to these conglomerates. It is really unfair to lump Oris in with whatever part of Swatch may be doing.  It is also unfair to compare them to Nomos (I am not sure which one it is the most unfair to.)  Oris has historically been fighting uphill against the rest of the Swiss watch industry.  It is a rare independent survivor.  Some brands turned East (Titus, Cyma, Sandoz), most faded away.

The pandemic economy freed-up funds for watches (hence WC).  The entry level is dominated by the Japanese (Orient, Seiko, Citizen) and the Chinese.  A brand like Oris can't produce in large enough numbers to compete there. They can only compete in the next level of luxury and higher.

This is a much different problem than Swatch faces.  Swatch has their entry level brand (Swatch) and then can micro target using the rest of their brands, like selling Mido to Latin America.

·
Porthole

Oris have always made in-house or customised movements, but due to the historical exclusivity and cabal that was pre-quartz Swiss watchmaking (1934 Watch Statute) they were forced to adapt and were stuck in the lower ranks of the market as they concentrated on “pin-lever” movements. This didn’t stop them from making some excellent calibres - the 652 (or a version of) was certified as a chronometer which is the very definition of rolling a turd in glitter. The innovation they demonstrate comes from the limitations imposed upon them at the time. Post quartz-crisis, and with better access and no restrictions they are showing people how it can be done. The 4000 series look really smart, and the 10 year warranty is a testament to how much faith they put into their work.

(Not like anyone is going to read this anyway, nobody seems to care about history on here.

Oris was founded in 1904, Nomos in 1990. How can you compare the two? Nomos has had to face none of the restrictions Oris had to overcome, it seems unfair to say that they are showing Oris how to operate as a watchmaker, that’s like me telling my Grandad how to procreate.)

This was actually very interesting to read 

·
Max

Relax, I'm sure I can show your grandad a move or two 😉

Appreciate the history lesson but I think young companies often show old ones how to do business in modern times. 

But I would argue this is not the case with Oris. Any company still going that survived the quartz crisis, and did it alone, was always going to need time to recover, and to establish their position in the market again, especially if they had been held under for so long. For too long they were considered second-rate, the turnaround is nothing if not stratospheric. I’m not an Oris fanboy (I’m nearer the other end of the spectrum as a vintage guy) but credit where credit is due. They also have a history of innovation - no other watchmaker got a pin-pallet movement certified, that is the equivalent of getting a lawnmower to win Le Mans. A company starting in 1990 has little baggage and has different challenges to face, it is not a fair comparison, nor should it even be one to begin with.

·

great marketing?

·

It seems like Orient and Seiko have a similar dynamic to these Swatch group companies.

Under the same large umbrella and Seiko moves upmarket while Orient occupies the affordable space.

·
Porthole

Oris have always made in-house or customised movements, but due to the historical exclusivity and cabal that was pre-quartz Swiss watchmaking (1934 Watch Statute) they were forced to adapt and were stuck in the lower ranks of the market as they concentrated on “pin-lever” movements. This didn’t stop them from making some excellent calibres - the 652 (or a version of) was certified as a chronometer which is the very definition of rolling a turd in glitter. The innovation they demonstrate comes from the limitations imposed upon them at the time. Post quartz-crisis, and with better access and no restrictions they are showing people how it can be done. The 4000 series look really smart, and the 10 year warranty is a testament to how much faith they put into their work.

(Not like anyone is going to read this anyway, nobody seems to care about history on here.

Oris was founded in 1904, Nomos in 1990. How can you compare the two? Nomos has had to face none of the restrictions Oris had to overcome, it seems unfair to say that they are showing Oris how to operate as a watchmaker, that’s like me telling my Grandad how to procreate.)

Not fair. There are almost tens of people on here who care about history. 

·
Porthole

The fact that both my vintage Oris (Orisi, Ori, Orae- will someone please tell me the correct plural for Oris? A pin-pallet of Orisibus?) are messed up and beyond repair says it all. Beautiful watches, but deeply flawed, and doomed to die.

I would like a SixtyFive bronze and a new 4000 in candy pink or robin egg blue though, I’m just that sort of guy.

I heard a podcast where someone at Oris used “Orises.”

Also, mad props for trying to use an ablative plural form of Oris.

·
Bobofet

I heard a podcast where someone at Oris used “Orises.”

Also, mad props for trying to use an ablative plural form of Oris.

My latin master would be proud, but it would be the only time.

·
Bobofet

I heard a podcast where someone at Oris used “Orises.”

Also, mad props for trying to use an ablative plural form of Oris.

Reported for use of "ablative". Not cool.

·

Oris are an independent watch company. They can do what they want, including going upmarket by manufacturing their own calibre movements. However, Longines, Hamilton and Tissot are all part of Swatch group. They all use ETA movements, so they have to play nicely alongside each other and not steal each others market. 

·

Enjoyed the discussion. I do think the “GM” analogy to Swatch is spot on. I have found individual watches from Tissot and Longines to be worth buying; my wife is fond of Longines with mother of pearl dials. Omega watches seem in general to be a step above, likely in the Buick class as Swatch has Breguet and others too. I’m OK with that, as $5-$15k is a comfort zone for me as a nice watch I’ll use as a daily wear. Oris, I hope the best for them. We have two, a very nice moonphase for my wife and an Aquis diver for me. The Moonphase is beautiful, but only OK accuracy (~10sec/day) and the diver is heavy, but has a great face and interesting moonphase complication. Together, they feel like they are almost there. We enjoy them, but hope Oris does better with perfecting their true in-house movements to around 4-5 sec/day accuracy. Then we‘d consider others.  

·

Every watch brand would like to upmarket to access the higher tier shoppers for a bigger margin. Keep the bean counters happy.

·

This post & the discussion has been a great learning tool about some of the history of the watchmaking industry in general and the way watch groups & independents do business. 

·
jason_recliner

Reported for use of "ablative". Not cool.

Ablative Absolute

Next level not cool. Go ahead. Let the algorithm auto-block me for using Latin grammatical terms that people don’t like…

Also, Carthago delenda est. 🎤 ⤵️ Cato the Elder style. Because that’s how I roll.

·
coreyod

The main reason many of those brands don’t move upmarket boils down to the fact they’re part of the SWATCH group, and it’s in the best interest of that business to maintain the ‘unique’ positioning of each brand within a specific tier of pricing/luxury/prestige.  Swatch Group would be far less profitable if all they had was a bunch of OMEGA’s in their stable, they cover way more of the market by having a range.  

That said, I think there’s room to allow Longines to trend upward, 

Came here to say this.

IMO, when (and if) Swatch have positioned Omega at the same level - or above - Rolex, then Longines will move up to occupy Omega's old slot, in terms of price and prestige.

·

If you buy an Oris with a sallita movement, they are priced pretty close to Longines. It's their caliber 400 watches that are commanding a much higher price. The cost of developing an in house caliber is enormous. TheRl R&D and the tooling to do it are so expensive, the other brands you mentioned stick to 3rd party movements. You have to get an ROI in a fairly short time to go in house. This equals higher pricing. 

·

I think it has a lot to do with Rolex and it’s impact on the market. People are finding great value alternatives instead of buying the Rolex hype. I honestly think the market is shifting away from Rolex to discover lesser known, high quality brands. 

·
Max

Yes that was my theory, those that are in the Swatch group will forever live under the shadow of big brother Omega.

In some ways I see Oris trying to model themselves after Nomos, make in house movement, increase prices 😉

People always seem to forget that Omega sits in the shadow of its own, the pinnacle of the Swatch group brands: Breguet.

Swatch essentially copied GM's strategy from the automotive market from the early 20th century.  Different brands occupying different stratas of the market.  To analogize, at its height, GM was organized in a ladder structure, with the price and refinement of its vehicles increasing as one went up the ladder of brands, from Chevrolet (entry level), Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Oakland, Buick, LaSalle and finally to Cadillac.  GM ultimately realized that there was too much overlap and cut out Oakland and LaSalle.  Swatch is organized similarly, but in some cases with more than one brand at each tier:  Swatch (entry level), Calvin Klein, Tissot/Certina/Hamilton/Mido, Longines/Rado, Omega/Glashutte Original, and topped off by Blancpain and Breguet.